Why isn't Estonia a minor hockey power?

[saskriders]

Estonia's national team is currently a div 1/div 2 bubble team, but when you look at some countries that have similarities or historical or culture ties it is comparetivly weak.

Baltic Countries:

Latvia - Tier 2 (what I would call tier 2 at least, very unlikely to play in a medal game, but not unheard of to upset a top team). About 700 000 more people. Slightly smaller per capita GDP. Just south of Estonia (assuminly warmer climate). Hockey is the most popular sport.

Lithuania - Mainstay in division 1. About 1.7 million more people. Slightly smaller per capita GDP. More southern than Estonia.

Other Former Soviet States:

Russia - Don't need to say much about them that you won't know.

Belarus - Tier 2. About 8 million more people. Less than half the per capita GDP. More southern climate.

Ukraine - Div 1 team, at its peak it was close to a tier 2 team. Over 40 million more people. Less than a third the per capita GDP. Much farther south.

Kazakhstan - Top div/div 1 bubble team. Peak would have been close to tier 2. About 15 million more people. About two thirds the per capita GDP. Much farther south.

Nordic Countries:

Sweden: Don't have to say much

Finland: Don't have to say much. Worth noting that hockey is the most popular sport, and they only have about 4 million more people. I think (but am not sure) that Finland may be the country most culturally linked to Estonia as well.

Denmark: Top division mainstay, probably what I would call tier 3 but seem to be rising. About 4 million more people. Much higher per capita GDP. Similar (?) Baltic sea climate.

Norway: Tier 2 team. About 4 million more people. Much higher per capita GDP. North of Estonia


So despite having ties to the good at hockey Nordic Countries, as well as ties to the Soviet countries which have also had success in hockey, Estonia has struggled. This is inspite of being richer, and having a better climate for hockey, than the successful Post-Soviet countries. Sure, it has a small population, but as Latvia, Finland, Norway, and Denmark show small countries can still play well. It seems to me that Estonia should have the cultural ties, population, wealth, and climate to be a team that can at least qualify for the top division. Yet they are nowhere near that point. What is holding them back. Is hockey just not popular, despite it being popular in neighbours and countries with ties to Estonia?

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[MaxV]

Why aren't India or China soccer superpowers? They both have perfect conditions for that.

It's one thing having resources, it's another thing using them.

Obviously, the powers that be don't feel it's worth while developing hockey program.

 

[CanadienShark]

It's not something you can really build overnight. You need to develop serious interest amongst parents/children. You need to have enough people to afford expensive equipment, training, ice time, etc.. You need to have proper organization and development programs.

Sure they might have the geographical location and population that could perhaps suit the sport, but obviously it's not developed enough there for Estonia to become a real hockey nation.

 

[Xokkeu]

They don't have the infrastructure or investment to push the game forward and there's little public interest in it. They have like 6 rinks in the whole country.

 

[S E P H]

It's quite easy because of political reasons, majority of the population was anti-Soviet Union during the 70s and 80s (hockey was REALLY growing then) when the CCCP was the most dominant team in probably any sport. They saw hockey as the "Soviet Union's" sport thus tried to conduct different activities that were as anti-CCCP as possible.

They are starting to produce some better players though, each generation is getting better than the last, like these..

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=339172
http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=279391
http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=353762 (looking like the most talented one)
http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=297104
http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=19220
http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=50998
http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=89680
http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=279017

One country you should watch for that's getting hockey crazy is Hungary. They have a deep passionate fanbase (which we will probably see at the 2016 WC) and are starting to produce a ton of players for a lot of the Europe leagues, especially Liiga and the SHL.

 

[Acallabeth]

It's quite easy because of political reasons, majority of the population was anti-Soviet Union during the 70s and 80s (hockey was REALLY growing then) when the CCCP was the most dominant team in probably any sport. They saw hockey as the "Soviet Union's" sport thus tried to conduct different activities that were as anti-CCCP as possible.

This is nonsense The true reason is that hockey was much less popular and worse developed in Estonia before the WWII (compared to Latvia etc.), and they didn't participate in the CCCP championship => no really good players and heroes for kids to follow => not very good coaches and shallow players pool => no need to develop infrastructure => vicious circle. Estonians seem not to be very interested in sports overall. A hockey country isn't built overnight, especially with no funding. Right now, all good Estonian players come from Russian or Finnish junior leagues.

 

[kabidjan18]

One country you should watch for that's getting hockey crazy is Hungary. They have a deep passionate fanbase (which we will probably see at the 2016 WC) and are starting to produce a ton of players for a lot of the Europe leagues, especially Liiga and the SHL.

They do have a passionate fanbase and the sport is growing fast enough. I would hardly call 2 marginal SHL players and 1 Liiga contributor "a ton of players" though. As far as development they're still behind Italy, and I don't see any big prospects coming out of there either. People got really excited after they made their first WC but they're still not the level of many programs they're associated with (eg. Slovenia).

I actually follow Estonian hockey a bit, it's coming along nicely, people really take lightly the fact that a hockey program cannot be built overnight. They're on the right track, they'll be where Lithuania is sometime not too far down the road.

 

[Atas2000]

Estonia's national team is currently a div 1/div 2 bubble team, but when you look at some countries that have similarities or historical or culture ties it is comparetivly weak.

Baltic Countries:

Latvia - Tier 2 (what I would call tier 2 at least, very unlikely to play in a medal game, but not unheard of to upset a top team). About 700 000 more people. Slightly smaller per capita GDP. Just south of Estonia (assuminly warmer climate). Hockey is the most popular sport.

Lithuania - Mainstay in division 1. About 1.7 million more people. Slightly smaller per capita GDP. More southern than Estonia.

Other Former Soviet States:

Russia - Don't need to say much about them that you won't know.

Belarus - Tier 2. About 8 million more people. Less than half the per capita GDP. More southern climate.

Ukraine - Div 1 team, at its peak it was close to a tier 2 team. Over 40 million more people. Less than a third the per capita GDP. Much farther south.

Kazakhstan - Top div/div 1 bubble team. Peak would have been close to tier 2. About 15 million more people. About two thirds the per capita GDP. Much farther south.

Nordic Countries:

Sweden: Don't have to say much

Finland: Don't have to say much. Worth noting that hockey is the most popular sport, and they only have about 4 million more people. I think (but am not sure) that Finland may be the country most culturally linked to Estonia as well.

Denmark: Top division mainstay, probably what I would call tier 3 but seem to be rising. About 4 million more people. Much higher per capita GDP. Similar (?) Baltic sea climate.

Norway: Tier 2 team. About 4 million more people. Much higher per capita GDP. North of Estonia


So despite having ties to the good at hockey Nordic Countries, as well as ties to the Soviet countries which have also had success in hockey, Estonia has struggled. This is inspite of being richer, and having a better climate for hockey, than the successful Post-Soviet countries. Sure, it has a small population, but as Latvia, Finland, Norway, and Denmark show small countries can still play well. It seems to me that Estonia should have the cultural ties, population, wealth, and climate to be a team that can at least qualify for the top division. Yet they are nowhere near that point. What is holding them back. Is hockey just not popular, despite it being popular in neighbours and countries with ties to Estonia?

You are making too many wrong assumptions aside from the fact that there such a simple thing like tradition of popularity of single sports in some countries.

Lithuanians for example are all crazy about basketball, so that's it for their interest for hockey.

You are not well informed about the cmimatic circumstances either. Kazachstam may be "further south" than Estonia, but you can't compare the dripping wet winters at the Baltic Sea to Kazachstan's continental climate with -40°C being normal at times.

I also have no idea how GDP per capita(which is flawed by design in itself) is an indication for anything. Obviously we're not talking about countries with troubles to feed the people. Other than that it plays no role.

It is tradition more than anything. There never was a hockey tradition in Estonia.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Latvia hopes to be mini Finland. They were on the verge of a breakthrough in 2014. Belarus upset the Swedes in 2002. Denmark is developing or so I hear.

 

[saskriders]

You are making too many wrong assumptions aside from the fact that there such a simple thing like tradition of popularity of single sports in some countries.

Lithuanians for example are all crazy about basketball, so that's it for their interest for hockey.

You are not well informed about the cmimatic circumstances either. Kazachstam may be "further south" than Estonia, but you can't compare the dripping wet winters at the Baltic Sea to Kazachstan's continental climate with -40°C being normal at times.

I also have no idea how GDP per capita(which is flawed by design in itself) is an indication for anything. Obviously we're not talking about countries with troubles to feed the people. Other than that it plays no role.

It is tradition more than anything. There never was a hockey tradition in Estonia.

I'll be honest, I was very unsure about the climates, and was at work on my phone and didn't want to take the time/data to look up them all so that is why I was simply saying "south".

For GDP per capita (yes flawed, but also easy to find) of course money matters. There is a difference between putting food on the table and putting your kids in hockey. Hockey is much more expensive than soccer o basketball.

 

[Zero Pucks Given]

I'm not sure there's a real infrastructure in terms of hockey development in Estonia.

 

[Bure80]

You are not well informed about the cmimatic circumstances either. Kazachstam may be "further south" than Estonia, but you can't compare the dripping wet winters at the Baltic Sea to Kazachstan's continental climate with -40°C being normal at times.

In Ukraine its similar, beside -40°C. Its over 1 mont work there to buy the stuff you need for hockey.

 

[kaiser matias]

They do have a passionate fanbase and the sport is growing fast enough. I would hardly call 2 marginal SHL players and 1 Liiga contributor "a ton of players" though. As far as development they're still behind Italy, and I don't see any big prospects coming out of there either. People got really excited after they made their first WC but they're still not the level of many programs they're associated with (eg. Slovenia).

I actually follow Estonian hockey a bit, it's coming along nicely, people really take lightly the fact that a hockey program cannot be built overnight. They're on the right track, they'll be where Lithuania is sometime not too far down the road.

I would argue Hungary is got a stronger development system than Italy does now. Since 2008 when Hungary made the top division for the first time in 70 years the government has put a lot of money into the program, and the sport isn't regionalised like it is in Italy. The Italians depended for too long on imports to support the national team, and while that has changed in the last years, it will take time to see what comes of that. But I wouldn't be surprised if Hungary slowly supplants Italy at both the senior and junior levels in short order (the Hungarian junior team is still below Italy now, but I can see that shifting quickly).

 

[kabidjan18]

I would argue Hungary is got a stronger development system than Italy does now. Since 2008 when Hungary made the top division for the first time in 70 years the government has put a lot of money into the program, and the sport isn't regionalised like it is in Italy. The Italians depended for too long on imports to support the national team, and while that has changed in the last years, it will take time to see what comes of that. But I wouldn't be surprised if Hungary slowly supplants Italy at both the senior and junior levels in short order (the Hungarian junior team is still below Italy now, but I can see that shifting quickly).

They're on the right track to pass a country like Italy but they're bottlenecked from reaching a country like Slovenia because of systematic disadvantages and lack of talent diversification. The talent level between them and the tier 2 teams (9-16) is only going to get bigger before it gets smaller.

 

[Atas2000]

There is a difference between putting food on the table and putting your kids in hockey. Hockey is much more expensive than soccer o basketball.

It is, but not to that extent as the example of Latvia cleary shows.

 

[Jussi]

It is, but not to that extent as the example of Latvia cleary shows.

And what example would that be? They are on a decline after the Soviet system trained players have retired. Their top talent is mostly nurtured in the CHL.

 

[BlazingBlueAnt]

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=353762 (looking like the most talented one)

6-1 209lbs at 15 jeeze

 

[Jumptheshark]

Latvia is Riga and they used to produce very good players

 

[Jumptheshark]

Poland is the country that I think should be producing better players

 

[kabidjan18]

And what example would that be? They are on a decline after the Soviet system trained players have retired. Their top talent is mostly nurtured in the CHL.

Hungary would love to be where Latvia is now and won't get there anytime soon. Latvia has an extremely diverse export base, it's their strength, as well as an MHL feeder team. The only thing they lack is a local youth league that is respectable. As a result they're top tier at basically all levels of competition(WC, WJC, etc.). Hungary has very few exports, and none that are really notable. They are trying to leech off the Austrian system, which is itself only beginning to be recognized, and they're going to be bottlenecked by that for a long time. As far as growth rate I'd probably say Denmark, then Germany(interchangeable with Denmark), then Austria, then Latvia and somewhere down down that list is Hungary which is moving as fast as it can but is too young and too far behind.

 

[v-man]

Traditionally Estonia has been an individual sport nation, not a team sport nation. Their football (soccer) team is making small inroads on that front, but otherwise it still holds true. I think their mindset of always wanting to be considered a Nordic/Scandinavian country has pushed them to try and excel in sports more traditional to that region, hence their only Winter Olympic success coming in cross-country, and more recently with their 13 year old prodigy slopestyle skier who won gold at the x games despite Estonia being a next to hill-less country. Hockey caught on in Latvia well before it became popular in Russia, so it has a long history with it, which stayed relevant during the Soviet occupation with the success of Dinamo Riga, whereas Estonia had nothing like that to hold on to. In the end though, it probably has a lot to do with demographics and the simple fact that they're a tiny nation and the chances of enough hockey players elite enough to compete with the big boys emerging from such a small talent pool are very slim. To put it in perspective, the city of Toronto has double the population of Estonia, and ten times the number of rinks (and that's just city run facilities).

 

[Atas2000]

And what example would that be? They are on a decline after the Soviet system trained players have retired. Their top talent is mostly nurtured in the CHL.

They are still a bigger force in hockey than UK or France, aren't they?

Read my post. It's about the relevance of GDP per capita for the country's success in hockey.

 

[BlitzSnipe]

It's quite easy because of political reasons, majority of the population was anti-Soviet Union during the 70s and 80s (hockey was REALLY growing then) when the CCCP was the most dominant team in probably any sport. They saw hockey as the "Soviet Union's" sport thus tried to conduct different activities that were as anti-CCCP as possible.

They are starting to produce some better players though, each generation is getting better than the last, like these..

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=339172
http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=279391
http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=353762 (looking like the most talented one)
http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=297104
http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=19220
http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=50998
http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=89680
http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=279017

One country you should watch for that's getting hockey crazy is Hungary. They have a deep passionate fanbase (which we will probably see at the 2016 WC) and are starting to produce a ton of players for a lot of the Europe leagues, especially Liiga and the SHL.

I agree with your viewpoint - hockey as the 'symbol' of the USSR, and anti-USSR rhetoric leading to a condescending attitude towards hockey.

 

[BlitzSnipe]

Traditionally Estonia has been an individual sport nation, not a team sport nation. Their football (soccer) team is making small inroads on that front, but otherwise it still holds true. I think their mindset of always wanting to be considered a Nordic/Scandinavian country has pushed them to try and excel in sports more traditional to that region, hence their only Winter Olympic success coming in cross-country, and more recently with their 13 year old prodigy slopestyle skier who won gold at the x games despite Estonia being a next to hill-less country. Hockey caught on in Latvia well before it became popular in Russia, so it has a long history with it, which stayed relevant during the Soviet occupation with the success of Dinamo Riga, whereas Estonia had nothing like that to hold on to. In the end though, it probably has a lot to do with demographics and the simple fact that they're a tiny nation and the chances of enough hockey players elite enough to compete with the big boys emerging from such a small talent pool are very slim. To put it in perspective, the city of Toronto has double the population of Estonia, and ten times the number of rinks (and that's just city run facilities).

Where do you get the information about Latvia getting introduced to hockey 'much earlier' than Russia?

 

[v-man]

Where do you get the information about Latvia getting introduced to hockey 'much earlier' than Russia?

I'm too lazy to go hunt down sources, but it's essentially common knowledge to those in the know (even superficially, Latvia has been an IIHF member since 1931, Russia 1952 - but it goes back further than that). Russia was a bandy country, and at one point they even had an entourage of diplomats travel to Riga to check out the "new sport" of hockey. Latvia, prior to the Soviet occupation, was a pretty bustling and productive place, and they caught on to/tried out new ideas and trends pretty liberally (hence them being the first European basketball champions before basketball was much of a thing in Europe).