Why isn't Bobby Smith in the HHoF?

[voyageur]

1036 points in 1077 games puts him on the marginal side. Just behind the guys like the Sedins or Joe Mullen.
He did play among the best defensive teams of the firewagon era, which was not like the Campbell Conference in any way. His early years with the Minnesota North Stars were by and large his most productive offensively.

What stands out though is that he appeared in 4 Stanley Cup finals, winning 1, but 3 of those appearances were with underdog teams.

He had 5 GWGs of the 14 playoff games the North Stars won in 1991.

He sits 25th all time in playoff scoring with 160 points, 64 g, 96 a. There's some big names on the leaderboard around him. You have to look way down to find Joe Mullen or the Sedins in this category.

Is it because he wasn't a perennial all-star? Overlapped by Gretzky, Trottier, Messier, Hawerchuk, Federko, M. Lemieux, Yzerman, on a defensive oriented, checking team? Or was he just a very good player with a good resume? Like some other names in the top 100 scoring. Though he is the only playoff performer with that good of a resume not in the Hall.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

No AS-1 or AS-2 and only 1 Top 10 points finish. The definition of HHOVG

 

[voyageur]

No AS-1 or AS-2 and only 1 Top 10 points finish. The definition of HHOVG

Interesting criteria that All Star appearances trump playoff performances. I guess playing for Lord Stanley's Cup isn't the ultimate chase in hardware.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Interesting criteria that All Star appearances trump playoff performances. I guess playing for Lord Stanley's Cup isn't the ultimate chase in hardware.

Post season AS teams, not all star games. Basically getting voted as one of the 2 best at your position.

And his playoff performances arent as good as the raw totals seem. 160 playoff points, but in 184 games. sub PPG in the 80s isnt great. He also only had 2 playoff runs over PPG

 

[Staniowski]

Smith's an interesting case. At the time of his retirement, I believe everybody who had as many career points as him was in the HHOF (or soon would be). So it is out of the ordinary, in a sense. But soon to be joined by Dave Taylor.

Smith was a good player. I think if he'd played in the 1940s when there was a lot fewer good players, he'd be in easily.

But he came along just before the huge rush of talent in the 1980s (Gretzky, Messier, etc.). He just got a bit lost in the deep talent.

In his only Stanley Cup win, he was essentially passed as the top C on the team by two defensive centres (Skrudland and Carbonneau).

 

[archangel2]

hall of very good. He played in the high scoring era and did not hit 400 goals Calder trophy no other software, One 1 100 pt season, no 50 goal seasons, only 1 40 goal season and only 3 30 goal seasons. one cup win and it was because of Patty Roy Montreal won

 

[MadLuke]

79-89 his 906 points in 838 games are not a world appart of Federko 1009 in 824, but still significantly lower.

He do have the most non OIlers points in the playoff from 80-91 which is not a bad trivia to have for an HHOF case trivia. could have had the most HHOF career among skater of his draft year with a margin.

Hall of fame skaters by draft year

1975: none
1976: Federko
1977: Bossy, Langway, Wilson
1978: *Smith draft year
1979: Anderson, Bourque, Carbo, Gartner, Goulet, Lowe, Messier (would have been Gretzky year)
1980: Coffey, Kurri, Murphy, Savard
1981: Chelios, Francis, Hawerchuck, MacInnis

But he came along just before the huge rush of talent

That could be it, looking at the HHOF per draft class of his time and before, it was thin for a while.

Brind'amour, Damphousse could be ahead the picking order...

 

[voyageur]

Post season AS teams, not all star games. Basically getting voted as one of the 2 best at your position.

And his playoff performances arent as good as the raw totals seem. 160 playoff points, but in 184 games. sub PPG in the 80s isnt great. He also only had 2 playoff runs over PPG

It's still a better ratio than Bryan Trottier or Joe Mullen. From the same era. Smith played on arguably lesser talented teams in that time.

The Sedins are so far down the list of effective playoff performers, around the likes of Dave Poulin and Murray Craven.

It`s a shame that Bobby Smith doesn't get recognized, simply because he played in the golden era of centers.

 

[carjackmalone]

I’d rank Bellows,nichols,Taylor and Dale Hunter ahead of Smith

 

[ThreeLeftSkates]

It's still a better ratio than Bryan Trottier .

On what planet?

 

[The Panther]

In the late 1980s, I remember Smith pretty well. He was an excellent player, and I remember him being strong on the Montreal PP, defensively solid, and fairly clutch.

All this being said, I would not have him in the Hall of Fame. While there was nothing missing per se, from his game, in the end I don't think he distinguished himself enough. Others have noted his scoring finishes aren't particularly impressive. He could compensate for that if he had some huge moments in the playoffs where he took over a series or dominated in the Cup Finals or something, but I think he's kind of lacking that.

It's not like Smith was in a bad situation. Minnesota was rife with young, offensive talent when he was there. Montreal was a defense-first team, sure, but they were also the 6th-highest scoring club of the 1980s (he regularly got first-unit PP time, as I recall) and the 2nd best overall.

 

[NyQuil]

Factoid: Bobby Smith had his number #15 retired by the Ottawa 67's.

He scored 385 points as a Junior including a 192 point season in 61 games in 1977-1978.

 

[MadLuke]

On what planet?

160 in 184 (.87ppg) is a bit higher than 182 in 221 (0.83), but that because he played a lot of playoff games with the penguins.

 

[vikash1987]

Quoting myself from a thread on this topic from six years ago:

Bobby Smith played more playoff games during the '80's than any other guy in the league (including all those Islander and Oiler greats), and he was a major offensive contributor during a bunch of his teams' playoff runs during those years.

Just as a quick example: during his first two playoffs...
1980: led Minnesota with 13 assists, including 7 in the 1st round sweep of the Leafs, and a huge one late in Game 7 against the Habs
1981: led Minnesota with 17 assists, including 8 in the semifinals against the Flames

He also finished his career with over 60 playoff goals, which is pretty darn impressive. Aside from Claude Lemieux and Esa Tikannen, all of the Hall-eligible players who had more goals in the playoffs than he did are, in fact, in the Hall.

I think his playoff accomplishments (if anything) would be THE major talking point when entertaining the idea of him being inducted. That said, I personally don't think his case is necessarily all that strong.

Thread is here: Bobby Smith, Yay or Nay For Hall Of Fame?

 

[tyhee]

Interesting criteria that All Star appearances trump playoff performances. I guess playing for Lord Stanley's Cup isn't the ultimate chase in hardware.

I'm not seeing anything in your arguments to suggest Smith doesn't belong in the Hall of Very Good. Don't get me wrong-if he were in the HOF I wouldn't be complaining about his inclusion, but he's in that decent-sized group of players that could quite reasonably be whose accomplishments aren't so impressive that it is a travesty if he isn't.

You seem to be placing a lot of emphasis on his playoff performance in saying he should be in the Hall. I don't see it. Four Stanley Cup finals appearances is good-but eclipsed by many lesser players and really doesn't mean anything more than he played on some good teams. One Stanley Cup victory doesn't mean anything more than he was on a good team. Lots of players far worse than Smith have Stanley Cup wins. His one appearance in the top 6 in playoff scoring (he was T4 one season) is good-but in no way does it stand out as meaning he should be in the Hall.

Having a better scoring ratio per game than Trottier, one of the best defensive forwards of his era and someone who won the Hart as league MVP, the Art Ross as league top scorer and had first and second team all-star selections, is akin to saying someone has a superior collection of fruit because he has 10 grapes compared with someone else having only 6 apples.

He was never voted onto an NHL post-season all-star team. The only trophy he won was the Calder. The Calder is meaningful, but it means someone was selected the best rookie, not the best player nor even necessarily among the best players. It gives some support to a HHOF nomination but doesn't mean he nor Steve Vickers, Eric Vail or Willi Plett, all Calder winners from the 1970's, should be in the Hall.

In the four best on best world tournaments (Canada Cup) held during Smith's playing career he was never on the Team Canada roster. He had a very small international resume-one WJC in which he was excellent but only played 3 games and one WC in which he was very good, tying for 9th in tournament scoring on a 3rd place team led by Gretzky.

In the end, Smith was a very fine player who was never voted to an NHL post-season all-star team, never won the Hart as MVP, had only one top-10 season in regular season scoring (8th in 1982), wasn't such a defensive standout as to ever finish in the top 20 in Selke voting, who has one Calder and one Stanley Cup win. He had a long enough career and enough total points that it isn't a matter of him being overlooked-he'd have been considered every year that he was eligible to be voted into the Hall and not enough people thought his career merited his inclusion.

 

[voyageur]

Quoting myself from a thread on this topic from six years ago:



Thread is here: Bobby Smith, Yay or Nay For Hall Of Fame?

That's what really irks me about the Sedins inclusion. Henrik is 187th and Daniel is 217th on the all time playoff scoring list. They were not effective players at all until the rule change which took away the rough and tough era that Smith played in. Became PP scorers in their prime.

It's the guys just behind Bobby Smith in playoff scoring that should catch your attention, guys like Hossa, Recchi, Modano. Who played in similar amounts of games.

He didn't play on great teams, the 81 Stars and the 86 Canadiens each had 87 point seasons. Hardly dominating. He was overwhelmingly the best player on the Stars in 81, though Steve Payne was the dominant playoff force. 86 Canadiens he was 2nd in scoring behind Naslund, 86 point season. 3rd in team scoring in the Cup run with 15 points in 20. 89 Canadiens was the only powerhouse team he played on, he was up there too in scoring too both regular season and playoffs. The most impressive is the 91 North Stars run. 5 GWGs out of 8 goals that playoff describes his clutch character.

How many non Oilers/Islanders had a run of 4 Stanley Cup finals between 1980-1992? Joe Mullen is the only one I can think of.

It's too late for Bobby now, there's too many good players in the wings, players that are remembered recently for their contributions. I think he gets penalized for the amount of elite centers who were in the league at the time, playing years in a Jacques Lemaire/Perron system, while the West is playing run and gun. He wasn't among the greats, but he was a very good hockey player as you say, that's the fine line I guess.

 

[Gorskyontario]

He was better than Andreychuk, Lowe and Housley.

 

[MadLuke]

I feel that even in the Montreal hall of fame lore, for that 2 cup finals second half 80s era he did not leave that big of a mark, not sure if he would make the top 7 of the name you hear the most around that era (Naslund seem to have marked more, but could be the Sweden factor that was still a bit of a novelty).

Became PP scorers in their prime.

Not sure if that fair at all for the Sedin, prime Henrik did lead the league in even strength scoring for a stretch:

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

2 evp for each ppp was high for that era and Henrik was at ~2.2

and +125 was the league best (with line mate burrows and Chara with them), they were excellent possession, cycling, etc... even strength player at their best.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

you can make the pros sound very good

retired 8th all-time in playoff scoring — everyone ahead of him either played on the oilers, islanders, or was jean beliveau

currently 22nd, tied with gordie howe, mike bossy, and al macinnis

was the number one center on a stanley cup winner

three other finals, one as a hotshot star scorer (25 pts on the 81 north stars), one as the leading scorer and offensive co-top dog of a defensive powerhouse (19 pts on the 89 habs), the other as a grizzled veteran third line center (15 pts on the 91 north stars, centering gaetan duchesne and stew gavin on the line that shut down peak hull and oates)

i think smith was criminally underrated and had the bad fortune of being just on the wrong side of his career when expansion and crazy money extended the careers of all the guys even just a couple years younger than him.

for example, i think guys like bernie nicholls, vinnie damphousse, brind’amour, none of those guys were better than him, but they all played longer for reasons other than durability and look better on paper. i’d add nieuwendyk to that list too.

he doesn’t scream “needs to be in the hall of fame.” but i can probably name fifteen to twenty post-expansion hall of famers off the top of my head that he’s better than, although tbf almost none of them are centers.

 

[MS]

Smith was tracking like a HHOFer through his 4th season in 81-82 but everything just went off the boil for him after that.

Scoring finishes post-1982 :

1982-83 - T-34
1983-84 - T-55
1984-85 - T-101
1985-86 - 22
1986-87 - T-33
1987-88 - 15
1988-89 - 30

... and then never top-100 again. No votes for any AS teams or post-season awards in that period either.

And possibly the even bigger problem is that he was passed over for Team Canada in 1981/84/87 in three best-on-best tournaments in the prime of his career.

In the end what you have is a HOVG guy who eked over 1000 points playing dead-center in the highest-scoring era in NHL history, one Cup, and one elite regular season. It just isn't enough. Also didn't really have any sort of star quality or intangibles to really up his case.

I've commented before how incredibly similar his career is to Vincent Lecavalier as a massively-hyped 6'4 C who had a 'nice' career with a Cup and a brief period where they hit their offensive potential surrounded by a mildly disappointing career otherwise.

That said, he is *clearly* more deserving than they likes of Ciccarelli and Andreychuk.

 

[wetcoast]

It's still a better ratio than Bryan Trottier or Joe Mullen. From the same era. Smith played on arguably lesser talented teams in that time.

The Sedins are so far down the list of effective playoff performers, around the likes of Dave Poulin and Murray Craven.

It`s a shame that Bobby Smith doesn't get recognized, simply because he played in the golden era of centers.

Smith also played when it was easy to get points, missed some games and just doesn't have the sustained peak/prime and his last year in Minny and first 2 seasons inn Montreal drag him down, ie he had a gradual decline from his 114 point season, instead of the dips, to that 86 or 93 point season in montreal maybe he is in but he didn't.

During his career from 79-93 he was 16th in scoring.

His best 3 year peak he is 8th in points

Best 7 year run (prime) is 16th in points.

Some missed game sure but it is what it is.

 

[The Panther]

I've commented before how incredibly similar his career is to Vincent Lecavalier as a massively-hyped 6'4 C who had a 'nice' career with a Cup and a brief period where they hit their offensive potential surrounded by a mildly disappointing career otherwise.

That seems a reasonable comparison, with both being big, hugely-hyped guys, who both ended up having great, full careers, with Cups and good teams... yet, you're left wanting a little bit more than what we actually got from each.

Smith was consistent from stern to stern though, whereas Lecavalier went from "mini-bust" to (very briefly) superstar and back to "just quite good". I mean there was a brief period where people debated whether Lecavalier or Crosby was better, and Vinnie was also MVP of the World Cup.

 

[MS]

That seems a reasonable comparison, with both being big, hugely-hyped guys, who both ended up having great, full careers, with Cups and good teams... yet, you're left wanting a little bit more than what we actually got from each.

Smith was consistent from stern to stern though, whereas Lecavalier went from "mini-bust" to (very briefly) superstar and back to "just quite good". I mean there was a brief period where people debated whether Lecavalier or Crosby was better, and Vinnie was also MVP of the World Cup.

I mean, no two comparisons are every going to be *exactly* identical. Lecavalier's peak was a higher speak than Smith's and a little later in his career and the run-in and run-out of that spike was a bit lower. But overall the general vibe of their careers and the type of player they were is about as similar as two players get.

 

[decma]

"During his career from 79-93 he was 16th in scoring."

Yes, and even this flatters his actual impact, as he was 3rd in games played during this span.

In terms of points per game for guys with at least 500 GP during that span, he was 48th, behind guys like Ciccarelli, Bellows, Maruk, Andreychuk, Sandstrom, Carson, Larouche, A Stastny, and Kirk Muller.

If Mondou doesn't get clipped in the eye by Ulf's stick late in the 84/85 season, does Smith even become Montreal's #1 C for the following few seasons? IMHO, Naslund has much chemistry with Mondou (maybe it is just childhood nostalgia, but I thought the Naslund-Mondou-Tremblay line was fantastic).

 

[Professor What]

He was better than Andreychuk, Lowe and Housley.

Maybe so. But do any of those guys actually belong in the Hall? This is one of the problems with the watering down that has escalated in recent years. It's easier to compare to guys that are in there and say, "If X in in there, why not Y?"