Why is the OHL stalling on realignment

[Otto]

Niagara in the same division as North Bay and Sudbury makes zero sense.

I'd argue that Mississauga in the OHL makes zero sense.

But I'll bite... what would you do?

 

[fishfan51]

I'd argue that Mississauga in the OHL makes zero sense.

But I'll bite... what would you do?

Erie
Niagara
Hamilton
Mississauga
Barrie

 

[HockeyPops]

The divisions with the most travel are the East and West. They are about as good as they could be. Maybe flopping Hamilton for Mississauga might make the East slightly better, but that's about all you can do. Nobody is really concerned about the Midwest or Central because their travel is already much reduced compared to the other divisions. I suppose you might be able to regroup and call one division SOUTH (London, Kitchener, Hamilton, Niagara, Erie) and the CENTRAL (Sudbury, North Bay, Barrie, Owen Sound, Guelph). At least those divisions would avoid the worst of the Toronto traffic. But now you are splitting up natural rivalries from the MID WEST (London/Kitchener, and Kitchener/Guelph) to what end? It's the teams that end up having to vote on this, and it is unlikely to get the support it needs even if it reduces travel by a couple miles per year.

And again, why would you worry about realignment when it's not even clear which cities are going to have teams in them 5 years from now?

Erie
Niagara
Hamilton
Mississauga
Barrie

Now you are taking Barrie away from a division with Sudbury and North Bay? How is that going to make more than zero sense?

 

[Otto]

Erie
Niagara
Hamilton
Mississauga
Barrie

So screw North Bay and Sudbury even more. Well congrats, you didn't even make it to the interview process.

The divisions with the most travel are the East and West. They are about as good as they could be. Maybe flopping Hamilton for Mississauga might make the East slightly better, but that's about all you can do. Nobody is really concerned about the Midwest or Central because their travel is already much reduced compared to the other divisions. I suppose you might be able to regroup and call one division SOUTH (London, Kitchener, Hamilton, Niagara, Erie) and the CENTRAL (Sudbury, North Bay, Barrie, Owen Sound, Guelph). At least those divisions would avoid the worst of the Toronto traffic. But now you are splitting up natural rivalries from the MID WEST (London/Kitchener, and Kitchener/Guelph) to what end? It's the teams that end up having to vote on this, and it is unlikely to get the support it needs even if it reduces travel by a couple miles per year.

And again, why would you worry about realignment when it's not even clear which cities are going to have teams in them 5 years from now?


Now you are taking Barrie away from a division with Sudbury and North Bay? How is that going to make more than zero sense?

Sudbury to St. Catherine's is only 15 minutes longer than Sudbury to Owen Sound. Which is probably why they don't bother tinkering

 

[HockeyPops]

Sudbury to St. Catherine's is only 15 minutes longer than Sudbury to Owen Sound. Which is probably why they don't bother tinkering

Yes, not much advantage to the Central to make the change. However, there might be some merit to considering a South division. Erie, Niagara, and Hamilton in the same division might lead itself to a little bit more rivalry brewing between those fan bases. You might find more fans willing to travel those shorter distances to support their teams on away games.

However, London and Kitchener are unlikely to support it so it's sunk before it even gets going.

 

[Opinionated]

Erie
Niagara
Hamilton
Mississauga
Barrie

Wow . . . reducing the league to 5 teams . . . seems a bit drastic.

 

[Fischhaber]

Niagara in the same division as North Bay and Sudbury makes zero sense.

Your solution is? I can only find some outdated info on travel distances, but Niagara was in the lower half of the league and less than half of some other teams.

 

[OMG67]

Before you start this exercise, you need to recognize there are four distinct pockets of teams that cannot be swapped out of their current divisions….

WEST:
Sault
Windsor
Sarnia
Flint
Saginaw
5 hour box

EAST:
Ottawa
Kingston
Peterborough
Oshawa
4 hour box

MID-WEST:
London
Kitchener
Guelph
Owen Sound
2.5 hour box

CENTRAL:
Sudbury
North Bay
Barrie
3 hours

LEFTOVERS:
Erie
Niagara
Hamilton
Mississauga


How do you place the leftovers? As has been argued, Erie with Niagara, Hamilton and Misissauga makes sense but that would Require the teams in the outer limits to make dramatic changes to their divisions and cause more problems than it fixes.

One team needs to go to the East, one to the Mid-West and two to the Central.

Erie in the Mid-West makes that division 5 hours from corner to corner which is no different than Sault to Windsor. DONE

Niagara going to the East Division makes no sense. It is over 5 hours to Ottawa and they would have to go through Toronto for every road visit inter-division. NIGHTMARE. Niagara to Sudbury isn’t quite as far and the other divisional games are closer than the rest of the East Division as well. So, Niagara to the Central makes sense.

That leaves Mississauga and Hamilton. A 45 minute drive. Flip a coin and be happy whichever side it falls on. Closer in one direction and further int he other no matter which team goes where.

Tack on the geographic rivalry scheduling to benefit all teams from a travel perspective and it tweaks the schedule enough for it to be reasonable for all outer area teams.

Time to move on.

 

[AttackSound]

I'm just waiting for Thunder Bay to get an OHL team and really make people crazy with the road trips

Might be dreaming a pipedream there. Even if they could put Thunder Bay in the OHL they would have to add places like Cochrane and Espanola or Timmins. Who all have NOJHL teams now.

Unless the OHL is going to buy an airline for teams to use Thunder Bay might as well be in the Artic Circle for OHL consideration. They're closer to Winnipeg then any OHL city now that would be like putting an OHL team in Atlanta, GA.

It wouldn't make sense for anyone and every team would have to play double or triple-headers which would financially kill the league.

 

[DCruickshank]

Owen Sound wants NOTHING too do with re - alignment....

 

[HuGo Burner Acc]

Before you start this exercise, you need to recognize there are four distinct pockets of teams that cannot be swapped out of their current divisions….

WEST:
Sault
Windsor
Sarnia
Flint
Saginaw
5 hour box

EAST:
Ottawa
Kingston
Peterborough
Oshawa
4 hour box

MID-WEST:
London
Kitchener
Guelph
Owen Sound
2.5 hour box

CENTRAL:
Sudbury
North Bay
Barrie
3 hours

LEFTOVERS:
Erie
Niagara
Hamilton
Mississauga


How do you place the leftovers? As has been argued, Erie with Niagara, Hamilton and Misissauga makes sense but that would Require the teams in the outer limits to make dramatic changes to their divisions and cause more problems than it fixes.

One team needs to go to the East, one to the Mid-West and two to the Central.

Erie in the Mid-West makes that division 5 hours from corner to corner which is no different than Sault to Windsor. DONE

Niagara going to the East Division makes no sense. It is over 5 hours to Ottawa and they would have to go through Toronto for every road visit inter-division. NIGHTMARE. Niagara to Sudbury isn’t quite as far and the other divisional games are closer than the rest of the East Division as well. So, Niagara to the Central makes sense.

That leaves Mississauga and Hamilton. A 45 minute drive. Flip a coin and be happy whichever side it falls on. Closer in one direction and further int he other no matter which team goes where.

Tack on the geographic rivalry scheduling to benefit all teams from a travel perspective and it tweaks the schedule enough for it to be reasonable for all outer area teams.

Time to move on.

I've thought about what new divisions should look like if ohl is intent on sticking with four 5 team divisions. It's alot easier to create five 4 team divisions tho. My divisions with the current format would be

*Keep the entire West division the same

Barrie
North Bay
Sudbury
Owen Sound
Guelph

Mississauga
Peterborough
Oshawa
Kingston
Ottawa

London
Erie
Hamilton
Niagara
Kitchener

Obviously this isn't ideal for some teams. Namely Guelph. I put them in a different division than teams like London, Kitchener, etc because they were the odd one out and the distance traveled for them vs Mississauga to the other divisional teams (in the central) in the same division is negligible. Also it is further away from Oshawa, Peterborough than a team like Mississauga is.

Mississauga by default goes into that division and the travel for them to places like Ottawa and Kingston is around the same as if they're going to Sudbury or North Bay. But again, they're close to Oshawa and Peterborough, closer than Hamilton is to them

Owen Sound is another odd one out and the new division isn't too bad for them as they're relatively close to Barrie and Guelph

Besides those three teams, two of which aren't too bad and are around the same travel as the current divisions, the only team that has significantly different travel is Guelph having to go to North Bay and Sudbury. But I mean Niagara already does it. But this way, Guelph and get there sooner

 

[Otto]

I've thought about what new divisions should look like if ohl is intent on sticking with four 5 team divisions. It's alot easier to create five 4 team divisions tho. My divisions with the current format would be

*Keep the entire West division the same

Barrie
North Bay
Sudbury
Owen Sound
Guelph

Mississauga
Peterborough
Oshawa
Kingston
Ottawa

London
Erie
Hamilton
Niagara
Kitchener

Obviously this isn't ideal for some teams. Namely Guelph. I put them in a different division than teams like London, Kitchener, etc because they were the odd one out and the distance traveled for them vs Mississauga to the other divisional teams (in the central) in the same division is negligible. Also it is further away from Oshawa, Peterborough than a team like Mississauga is.

Mississauga by default goes into that division and the travel for them to places like Ottawa and Kingston is around the same as if they're going to Sudbury or North Bay. But again, they're close to Oshawa and Peterborough, closer than Hamilton is to them

Owen Sound is another odd one out and the new division isn't too bad for them as they're relatively close to Barrie and Guelph

Besides those three teams, two of which aren't too bad and are around the same travel as the current divisions, the only team that has significantly different travel is Guelph having to go to North Bay and Sudbury. But I mean Niagara already does it. But this way, Guelph and get there sooner

St Catherine's to Sudbury is 15 minutes longer than Guelph to Sudbury. No way is it worth the changes you suggest

 

[HockeyPops]

St Catherine's to Sudbury is 15 minutes longer than Guelph to Sudbury. No way is it worth the changes you suggest

Or 2h15m longer, depending on what time of day you leave...

 

[Otto]

Or 2h15m longer, depending on what time of day you leave...

Not really both have access to the 407 well before it gets nutty. And both teams would be leaving around 1pm ish anyway. Traffic is a non issue heading in that direction

 

[HuGo Burner Acc]

St Catherine's to Sudbury is 15 minutes longer than Guelph to Sudbury. No way is it worth the changes you suggest

That wasn't the only change I made. I took Hamilton out of the east. I put Owen sound in the central. I put Mississauga in the east to replace Hamilton. Guelph was literally the last team I sorted. I had six teams: Guelph, Kitchener, London, Hamilton, Erie and London. Guelph was the closest out of the six to the central teams. So I made them the odd one out

 

[Otto]

That wasn't the only change I made. I took Hamilton out of the east. I put Owen sound in the central. I put Mississauga in the east to replace Hamilton. Guelph was literally the last team I sorted. I had six teams: Guelph, Kitchener, London, Hamilton, Erie and London. Guelph was the closest out of the six to the central teams. So I made them the odd one out

Right, you've added a lot of extra travel for a number of teams and I don't believe it really solved anything

 

[Millpond]

With unbalanced scheduling, does it matter?

Owen Sound has close rivals with Guelph and Kitchener.

And Barrie-.cross conference

Because it's not necessary. This has been brought up over and over again. Someone has posted a chart with the mileage and the current alignment is the best option.

There is no way the Attack will willingly give up their division.

London is one of the biggest reasons.

Who doesn't want to see the perennially best team in the OHL 8 times ?

 

[HuGo Burner Acc]

Right, you've added a lot of extra travel for a number of teams and I don't believe it really solved anything

1. Mississauga is closer to the east teams than Hamilton
2. Hamilton has a reduced time significantly
3. Niagara furthest divisional opponent is closer than their current closest division opponent (besides Mississauga)
4. Owen sound travel to Sudbury and North Bay is less than to Erie. Also their travel to Barrie is closer than to Kitchener.

The only teams that were negatively affected in my rearrangement were Mississauga and Owen Sound. But Mississauga's added time isn't that much as Hamilton's deducted time. Also Niagara deducted time. Technically Erie now has deducted time from not being in the same division as Owen sound. And Owen sound only has the added time from North Bay but deducted time by going to Barrie vs Kitchener, and Sudbury vs erie. So I'd like to know which teams have more travel now that wasn't offset with other teams (Mississauga-Hamilton, Owen Sound-Niagara)

 

[OSAttackFan88]

I’ve heard rumours that Mississauga is moving within the next few years because lack of ticket sales. Heard Cornwall is pushing hard to get a team back and Brantford wants an OHL team as well.

 

[Otto]

1. Mississauga is closer to the east teams than Hamilton
2. Hamilton has a reduced time significantly
3. Niagara furthest divisional opponent is closer than their current closest division opponent (besides Mississauga)
4. Owen sound travel to Sudbury and North Bay is less than to Erie. Also their travel to Barrie is closer than to Kitchener.

The only teams that were negatively affected in my rearrangement were Mississauga and Owen Sound. But Mississauga's added time isn't that much as Hamilton's deducted time. Also Niagara deducted time. Technically Erie now has deducted time from not being in the same division as Owen sound. And Owen sound only has the added time from North Bay but deducted time by going to Barrie vs Kitchener, and Sudbury vs erie. So I'd like to know which teams have more travel now that wasn't offset with other teams (Mississauga-Hamilton, Owen Sound-Niagara)

Have you factored in the rivalry games in the current schedule? And the reduced in division games?

 

[Otto]

I’ve heard rumours that Mississauga is moving within the next few years because lack of ticket sales. Heard Cornwall is pushing hard to get a team back and Brantford wants an OHL team as well.

Wouldn't surprise me in the least. They are down about 700 fans per game this season compared to pre-pandemic. That's roughly 1/3 of what their attendance was. And they haven't even played any weekday home games yet.

Steelheads are by far the weakest link in the OHL.

Edit: Steelheads are down 801 fans/game over the same amount of home games in 2018/19. At this point in 18/19 they were averaging 2387 /game, now they are averaging 1586. Next closest is North Bay at 2450 and they are seeing an increase of 81 per game this season. I suspect North Bays arena contract is probably much better than Mississauga's as well.

Another edit: Compare to the last few seasons the Battalion were in Brampton

08/09 2405
09/10 2090
10/11 1889
11/12 1896
12/13 2193

 

[HuGo Burner Acc]

Have you factored in the rivalry games in the current schedule? And the reduced in division games?

Only divisional game reduction. Not as much rivalry games. But while Owen sound lose Kitchener they gain Barrie. Niagara and Hamilton get regional divisional games. The rest stay unchanged besides Guelph and Mississauga. Overall my realignment sucks the most for Guelph and then Mississauga. But other teams moving more than makes up for them in travel time like Owen sound, Hamilton, Niagara, etc. So if a better travel schedule overall means Guelph and Mississauga rivalry games get affected, well that's a sacrifice I think is worth taking

 

[Otto]

Only divisional game reduction. Not as much rivalry games. But while Owen sound lose Kitchener they gain Barrie. Niagara and Hamilton get regional divisional games. The rest stay unchanged besides Guelph and Mississauga. Overall my realignment sucks the most for Guelph and then Mississauga. But other teams moving more than makes up for them in travel time like Owen sound, Hamilton, Niagara, etc. So if a better travel schedule overall means Guelph and Mississauga rivalry games get affected, well that's a sacrifice I think is worth taking

Owen Sound already plays Barrie 6 times a season. It's 15 minutes longer to Kitchener from Owen Sound than it is to Barrie. Hamilton already plays Niagara 6 times a season. Everything you are advocating for has already been accommodated.

 

[Otto]

Nothing scientific to this, just used google, but im sure the totals are not far off

Mississauga to:
North Bay 350.1km
Barrie 101.5km
Sudbury 393.5km
Niagara 91.8km

total 936.9km

Peterborough 161.6km
Oshawa 81.5km
Kingston 283.9km
Ottawa 452.2km

total = 979.2km

That's a lot more travel for a team that most likely could least afford additional expenses

 

[HuGo Burner Acc]

Owen Sound already plays Barrie 6 times a season. It's 15 minutes longer to Kitchener from Owen Sound than it is to Barrie. Hamilton already plays Niagara 6 times a season. Everything you are advocating for has already been accommodated.

You're just mentioning two matchups. Hamilton should not be in the east. Mississauga is closer to every single east team than Hamilton is. And Oshawa and Peterborough are approximately the same distance to Mississauga than Niagara and Barrie is to it. And then Kingston and Ottawas distance versus Sudbury and North Bay is negligible. How about Niagara games vs Erie, and London, and Kitchener. Those should increase to. Like I said Guelph gets shafted in the realignment as they're the odd team out in the entire OHL (besides Soo lol)

If each team voted on the proposed realignment, I'm pretty sure every east team would be in favour, the west wouldn't care, Barrie would probably vote for it to be able to play in a division with Guelph and Owen sound, Niagara and Hamilton would to be in a division with London's Erie would as they get less travel time to Owen sound and Guelph (versus Niagara/Hamilton). So the only teams that would probably oppose it are Guelph, Owen sound, Mississauga, maybe London, maybe Kitchener and that's it. Every other team (besides the maybe who wouldn't really be affected) would actually gain from it besides 3-5 at most