WJC: Why is sweden so poor at international junior level?

[Past Considerations]

Blaming coaches, systems, quality of players... if those were the problems they would be visible in the prelim rounds too against top teams, but Sweden consistently loses in the playoff rounds or finals. Perhaps there is some kind of a problem with mental side, mentality, "winning culture" etc.

 

[Past Considerations]

Consequences of juniors playing in adult pro leagues. Talent developes faster but leadership qualities take longer since juniors in adult leagues are rarely placed in #1 or key roles.

Finnish junior works the same way but doesn't seem to have this issue now.

 

[Machinehead]

They're not. They're on a 48 game winning streak.

They've just lost the wrong games. Part of that is them coming up short, but a large part of that is luck.

 

[canswetoxic]

They don't get lot of Golds, but the development of their juniors for the past few years have been doing really well in NHL.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Finnish junior works the same way but doesn't seem to have this issue now.

Take a 20 year window not under 5.

 

[Star Ocean]

Without getting into a political debate... and this is purely on my trips up there in recent years (Malmo, Stockholm, Gothenburg).

I realize Sweden is still producing great players, but as a whole I feel like this issue might be more cultural and systemic going forwards than just bad luck in tournaments and we'll start seeing the decline of Swedish hockey over the next decade. We'll still see great players but I think they'll be fewer and farther in between as Sweden as a whole changes and puts emphasis on different cultural touchstones.

I'm heading back up there for the u18's, so that'll grant some insight. Especially hockey at the younger levels.

I agree, sadly we import too many immigrants that are not interested in hockey.

 

[Past Considerations]

Take a 20 year window not under 5.

For a second I thought this thread was specifically about the last few years.

 

[Canadiens1958]

For a second I thought this thread was specifically about the last few years.

References back to 2000:

WJC: - Why is sweden so poor at international junior level?

 

[ffh]

Cherry explained why years ago.

 

[blindpass]

My take is Sweden has an incredibly high floor as a team almost every year. They're always going to be consistent, competitive, structured and team oriented, but sometimes they lack that dynamic element on offense. No one can compete with their D, but their forwards are almost too structured, too disciplined, not enough deployment of skill and dynamism. Maybe Raymond, Gunler, Holtz can try and change this, but i think its just theyre always good because theyre structured and disciplined, but to beat the best, sometimes that structure and discipline bites them and holds them back a bit in a tournament where you need to play hot, and it's do or die right now.

This describes this year, bit bit other recent years.

 

[TheTwelfth]

Sweden barely produced any talent between 1980-1987 age groups. The recent improvement in training and coaching is quite remarkable. There was some poor luck/coaching keeping the team from winning in 2014 and 2018 (and arguably, it was quite a lot of luck in the win in 2012 with an OT winner). Small margins and all of that, specially for a country with such a relatively small player base.

If Finland hadn’t had an incredible coach in 2014, or Canada would have less power plays in 2018, we would probably not have this discussion. I don’t think some lucky bounces in two games is the difference between a great or bad junior program.

Sweden now is the third most represented country in the NHL. The 2010’s finally saw Swedish rookies contest for the Calder, after only Zetterberg being nominated previous decade. In 2003 only 1 Swede was taken in the first round, since 2010 there are on average more than that taken in the top 10.

Some bad age groups in a row now does not change that fact.

 

[Lampedampe]

Coaching is part of the problem imo, Grönborg, Monten and Mårts are all very passive and leave alot to the players. You will always see them with their arms crossed behind the bench.

When things gets tough in an important game on junior level I really believe it's a huge plus for the players to have a more proactive coach behind the bench, someone to give clear direction and someone who can change things up. Sweden won with Rönnberg who's certainly alot more in the game and he'll go around the bench and talk to players.

 

[Jussi]

Well our juniors don't have any memories of Masken Carlsson or Sundin so they're not burdened by such memories but instead have witnessed us winning gold at Worlds in 2011 , WJC gold in 2014 and 2016 plus two U-18 WJC golds, so they just know they can win. Swedes don't have that mental advantage anymore.

 

[Prntscrn]

Sweden barely produced any talent between 1980-1987 age groups. The recent improvement in training and coaching is quite remarkable. There was some poor luck/coaching keeping the team from winning in 2014 and 2018 (and arguably, it was quite a lot of luck in the win in 2012 with an OT winner). Small margins and all of that, specially for a country with such a relatively small player base.

If Finland hadn’t had an incredible coach in 2014, or Canada would have less power plays in 2018, we would probably not have this discussion. I don’t think some lucky bounces in two games is the difference between a great or bad junior program.

Sweden now is the third most represented country in the NHL. The 2010’s finally saw Swedish rookies contest for the Calder, after only Zetterberg being nominated previous decade. In 2003 only 1 Swede was taken in the first round, since 2010 there are on average more than that taken in the top 10.

Some bad age groups in a row now does not change that fact.

What was the luck in that game? Dominating and outshooting 58 to 17?

 

[TheTwelfth]

What was the luck in that game? Dominating and outshooting 58 to 17?

It is an 1-0 OT game. It is 1 shot/save away from Sweden having another silver. It is silly to only judge success on 3 best of 1 games (all of which were 1 goal affairs). The difference between 3 gold medals and 3 silvers are within the margin of error (same goes for Finland’ s 3 golds, all 1 goal affairs).

 

[SotasicA]

They blow their load in the round robin. Nothing left in the tank for elimination games. It's like sprinting the first 100 yards of a marathon.

 

[Star Ocean]

It is an 1-0 OT game. It is 1 shot/save away from Sweden having another silver. It is silly to only judge success on 3 best of 1 games (all of which were 1 goal affairs). The difference between 3 gold medals and 3 silvers are within the margin of error (same goes for Finland’ s 3 golds, all 1 goal affairs).

Sweden was undefeated in 2012 so gtfo with your logic that our only gold was luck.

 

[TheTwelfth]

Sweden was undefeated in 2012 so gtfo with your logic that our only gold was luck.

Pick up a statistics book. A one-goal game can easily swing the other way, specially when it goes to OT. Sweden losing in 2012 as well as winning in 2008, 2014 and 2018 are within the margin of error. And since Sweden has their undefeated group stage streak going, they were 1 goal/save from being undefeated in those tournaments as well.

 

[57special]

ehh, small sample size. They look amazing. Team speed and strength is off the charts. Hockey IQ is very good. They have lacked pure snipers, though their Dmen are offensively talented.

 

[Casper The Soy Ghost]

Honestly, this is one of the most interesting statistical anomalies in sports. To be so unbeatable in the preliminary round, and then to be so pedestrian in the elimination games is perplexing to say the least. I wish I could give you an answer as to why, but I really have no idea.

Reminds me of Capitals. Caps eventually won, Sweden one a few years ago too.

 

[jj cale]

They just tend to choke a lot at this level due to their mental toughness being really low compared to most of the other top teams at this tourney most years.

It's all between the ears with them at the junior level.

 

[illone84]

They just tend to choke a lot at this level due to their mental toughness being really low compared to most of the other top teams at this tourney most years.

It's all between the ears with them at the junior level.

They are lacking some finish.

 

[Snauen]

They just tend to choke a lot at this level due to their mental toughness being really low compared to most of the other top teams at this tourney most years.

It's all between the ears with them at the junior level.

I think we (Im a Swede) work to develop our players in this home grown specific Swedish style. At juinor level it is what it is and there is a very effective system at place, most games are won. Yet there is comfortability that comes whit it and I think the best youth players get to comfortable and have problems when they need to work hard and rise to the next level in do or die games. They are spoiled , that is the best way to put it.

 

[jj cale]

They are lacking some finish.

Or Finnish maybe?

It's a valid critique of their junior teams, of course some years it's all down to bounces that go your way that make the slight difference between winning and losing and some years your goalie being a stinker or just not as good as your competitors in a one off winner take all gamethat costs you and some years there is just a clear cut better team but where there is smoke there is fire and with the round robin results they have had for so many years now with only a single gold to show for it you know there is a hell of a lot of smoke.

Last year pretty much sealed the deal for me with how their players responded in terms of whining and throwing the silver medal in the stands and stuff, they just don't have that proper winning mentality at this thing yet, they need to address that fast.

 

[jj cale]

I think we (Im a Swede) work to develop our players in this home grown specific Swedish style. At juinor level it is what it is and there is a very effective system at place, most games are won. Yet there is comfortability that comes whit it and I think the best youth players get to comfortable and have problems when they need to work hard and rise to the next level in do or die games. They are spoiled , that is the best way to put it.

Could very well be.

I'm always impressed with the Swedish teams game plan/ tactics, skill level, team cohesion at this thing yet they almost always disappoint me in the must win games, they seem to have a hard time bearing down and give up and get frustrated too much when they go down a couple of goals or things don't go their way.