Why haven't we seen another Eric Lindros?

[BraveCanadian]

There is really no one remotely comparable to the package Lindros brought to the table in the league today, that's for sure. It is pretty hard to overstate how dominating he was out there for a while. People in this thread going strictly by offensive numbers are missing a BIG part of the picture.

I don't think another Lindros is even possible with how the game is officiated now. He'd be permanently suspended - as would many of the people he was facing back in the day.

Although I loved hockey during the 90s, it is for the best considering the cost on player safety and long term health.

 

[tarheelhockey]

From 2005-11 Ovechkin didn’t really miss more than a few games due to injury while hitting everything that moves and skating full speed dangling everyone 24/7. The league was incredibly dangerous on top of being played at a faster pace before they cracked down on headshots and Ovechkin almost couldn’t have been any healthier for an entire 6 years.

Agreed, but there are limits to what a human body can put up with. If Ovie was fighting regularly, being obstructed constantly, taking high hits and hits way after the whistle, even he would eventually break down. His health throughout his career is all but superhuman as it is, and that’s in a much less dangerous environment. He’s not literally invincible.

 

[authentic]

Agreed, but there are limits to what a human body can put up with. If Ovie was fighting regularly, being obstructed constantly, taking high hits and hits way after the whistle, even he would eventually break down. His health throughout his career is all but superhuman as it is, and that’s in a much less dangerous environment. He’s not literally invincible.

I don’t think his health would’ve remained the same back in Lindros’ era, but I would feel safe betting he would’ve still been much healthier than Lindros was.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I don’t think his health would’ve remained the same back in Lindros’ era, but I would feel safe betting he would’ve still been much healthier than Lindros was.

Agreed.

 

[gretzkyoilers]

I don’t think Ovechkin had better skills and IQ, but since his game was built around those things rather than his physicality it gave him a better opportunity to adapt.

Lindros did prove that he could adapt to a skill game when he was with the Rangers, but by then all it took was one hard hit for him to be down. That’s exactly what happened.

Also the game had already changed when OV started (two line passes allowed, more speed, increased scoring) and continues to change (less obstruction, smaller goalie equipment), which favours older players. Also in the 90's, protective equipment was still old school and not the armor we started having in the 2000's. To lay a hit on someone with old padding, you really felt it, which also leads to more injuries. At any rate, Eric would have been trained differently had he been born in the mid to late 80's vs early 70's. Also it was a chicken and egg thing too: after Eric's numerous hits and concussions, kids post Lindros were really taught to skate with your head up!

 

[Daximus]

Hockey is more skill based than any of those other sports.

Being big and jacked doesn't really matter if you don't have the skills.

It's all about putting in the time and effort to develop that skill. Hockey is also the most specialized of all those sports. You need skates, a stick, pucks and an ice rink generally at minimum to even get started. Though you can make an argument that rollerblades and a street could work. But those qualifications alone are out of reach for the majority of the worlds population to develop those skills.

It's more so that most school programs in a lot of countries generally offer basketball, baseball, football or soccer at a minimum. So if you are developing into an athletic freak of nature you are far more likely to join the basketball, football, soccer or baseball youth teams in your area simply because they are cheaper to play and more accessible. There are realistic paths for a lot of them through public school systems and youth programs that are far cheaper than the routes hockey has to get to the top.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

My problem is with people creating false naratives on a player to win there argument, instead of just saying yes so and so was an amazing player, they have to bring them down and make the player less than what he was. I really dislike this kind of person, why can't we just accept Lindros was an amazingly flawed talent, who could have an even more amazing career than he did instead of bringing him down.

Bringing him down?
Posters on here are saying he would easily win the Ross year in and year out in this era, and I call bullshit. He's not even remotely on McDavids level.

McDavid is transcendent talent bordering taking his place in the big-4 if he can win a cup. Lindros was nowhere close to that.

 

[Daximus]

NHL players have gotten taller on average, but also lighter.

Importantly, Lindros also played in an area where players were allowed to physically manhandle each other, headshots were legal, and toe-to-toe fighting was far more common.

The arms race in heavier players ended with the 2005 lockout rule changes. Fighting ceased to be a relevant skill set around the same time. And as noted in another recent thread, guys like Crosby and Bergeron were assumed to be on their last legs with concussions until the headshot rules changed in 2011, at which point they began a long and illustrious period of health.

While it’s true that the game is faster and the players are taller, this league is a lot less dangerous and it really shows with the longevity of its stars, Ovechkin being Exhibit A of a guy who would almost certainly have been broken physically if he had been born a generation earlier.

It's a threefold effect I think when it comes to the danger within the league. The league is taking injuries, especially those to the head, more seriously. Players are taking their own personal health more seriously and fighting has taken a major backseat in the game as it's becoming less relevant as the violence decreases this also leads to generally more healthy players.

I think a big part of that health craze and drop in overall fighting for players is also what is leading to the drop in weight. Being leaner makes one faster and the game is all about speed now. Players are still being asked to bulk up coming into the league but not to the extent they used to. Get bigger but not to big because you might get slower in the process.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I think a big part of that health craze and drop in overall fighting for players is also what is leading to the drop in weight. Being leaner makes one faster and the game is all about speed now. Players are still being asked to bulk up coming into the league but not to the extent they used to. Get bigger but not to big because you might get slower in the process.

Definitely. In the late 90s players were still doing a lot of upper-body bulking. That’s all but nonexistent now.

The Flyer’s top two centers were Lindros and Brind’amour. There’s nothing like that in today’s league in terms of playing every shift against a couple of bodybuilders.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Agreed, but there are limits to what a human body can put up with. If Ovie was fighting regularly, being obstructed constantly, taking high hits and hits way after the whistle, even he would eventually break down. His health throughout his career is all but superhuman as it is, and that’s in a much less dangerous environment. He’s not literally invincible.

The thing is, players can still get rocked when cutting across the blue line with their heads down. Maybe not shoulder-to-head, but the head can still be hit if the primary point of contact is the shoulder.

Any way you cut it, Lindros still skate a LOT with his head down staring at the puck. He would get obliterated often in any era. Just maybe not direct shots to the head, but he would still be ground down.

OV has much better vision and on-ice awareness. He wasn't caught nearly as easily.

Lindros often played like he was receiving a suicide pass. He always lined himself up to be hit looking the wrong way (and often straight down).

 

[Daximus]

Definitely. In the late 90s players were still doing a lot of upper-body bulking. That’s all but nonexistent now.

The Flyer’s top two centers were Lindros and Brind’amour. There’s nothing like that in today’s league in terms of playing every shift against a couple of bodybuilders.

Yeah exactly in the DPE it was all about bulk, being able to handle yourself, being able to skate through mud while getting relentlessly hacked and slashed from all sides and coming out the other end. Guys like Lindros, Forsberg, Lemieux, Modano, Jagr, Sundin etc. were all built for that power and finesse game.

Now that the game has opened up significantly the power game is still there and we see it with a lot of guys but it's far less prominent than the speed and skill game overall. At least in the regular season. Once playoffs start the rulebook changes back to that DPE style of hockey and the power and finesse guys really start to shine again because the space becomes limited and the hacks and slashes are allowed to return.

The thing is, players can still get rocked when cutting across the blue line with their heads down. Maybe not shoulder-to-head, but the head can still be hit if the primary point of contact is the shoulder.

Any way you cut it, Lindros still skate a LOT with his head down staring at the puck. He would get obliterated often in any era. Just maybe not direct shots to the head, but he would still be ground down.

OV has much better vision and on-ice awareness. He wasn't caught nearly as easily.

Lindros often played like he was receiving a suicide pass. He always lined himself up to be hit looking the wrong way (and often straight down).

We also don't have a certain player in this era that was running around looking to end guys careers. Skating with your head down is bad for sure, but it's even worse when you have a guy running around whose made it his mission to take you out of the game permanently by purposely looking to target your head. That kind of guy would not last long in todays game before being heavily suspended.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Definitely. In the late 90s players were still doing a lot of upper-body bulking. That’s all but nonexistent now.

The Flyer’s top two centers were Lindros and Brind’amour. There’s nothing like that in today’s league in terms of playing every shift against a couple of bodybuilders.

Lindros used to claim he had to limit how much he worked out because he put on muscle too easily and would get too bulky even for the time.

Players upper bodies now are stick figures compared to Lindros and Rod the Bod (and many others from the time). And before anyone gets onto sports specific training and core training and blah blah.. many guys in the 90s also had tree trunk legs too.

The thing is, players can still get rocked when cutting across the blue line with their heads down. Maybe not shoulder-to-head, but the head can still be hit if the primary point of contact is the shoulder.

Any way you cut it, Lindros still skate a LOT with his head down staring at the puck. He would get obliterated often in any era. Just maybe not direct shots to the head, but he would still be ground down.

OV has much better vision and on-ice awareness. He wasn't caught nearly as easily.

Lindros often played like he was receiving a suicide pass. He always lined himself up to be hit looking the wrong way (and often straight down).

Always feel like people massively exaggerate how much Lindros had his head down.

Because they do.

He got caught a couple of times for sure, but people were actively head hunting back then, too.

 

[The Macho King]

Now that the game has opened up significantly the power game is still there and we see it with a lot of guys but it's far less prominent than the speed and skill game overall. At least in the regular season. Once playoffs start the rulebook changes back to that DPE style of hockey and the power and finesse guys really start to shine again because the space becomes limited and the hacks and slashes are allowed to return.

I sooooo disagree with this. I understand that it's the logic, but the reality doesn't reflect that.

First and most obviously - Connor McDavid just had the best playoffs in a generation as the speediest speed guy to ever speed. But also there are so many notable "big, playoff" types that have been gigantic duds, and small guys that absolutely excel. In Tampa you have Point and Kucherov, two undersized forwards - one of which works almost exclusively on the perimeter - as two of the best playoff performers of the generation. To the other side you have big, strong guys like Rick Nash and Joe Thornton who were legendary for the inability to raise their game in the playoffs.

Basically that's all to say that while I understand the logic, I don't think that's actually reflected in reality.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

I went hunting for an article I read a while ago when I was shocked at Lindros' induction into the HHOF:

This article almost reads like an apology for his induction:
Rooting For Goliath

But I CLEARLY remembered the first part of his career the exact same way.
- Team Canada lost to the World Cup in 1996 to the USA.
- Lindros was supposed to 'take over' from the old guard as the face of Canada.
He was the Hart winner in 1995 but he fell flat and was just mostly ineffective during a best on best tournament.

Team Canada needed an old washed up post-Suter hit 36 year old Gretzky to lead them to a gold, but this was supposed to be Lindros' coming out party. This was supposed to be the moment he stepped onto the big stage and become the iconic Canadian champion that won us that gold.

Nope, outshone by tournament MVP Brett Hull and Mike Richter. 6 points in 8 games, and just an all-round dud of a performance.

Fast Forward 2 years later. Lindros was supposed to be the centerpiece of an invincible Team Canada Dream Team in the Nagano Olympics based on Lindros' identity constructed by his GM who intentionally left Mark Messier off the roster.

So how did MIGHTY Lindros fare with the might of Team Canada behind him following his leadership?
5 points in 6 games mostly compiling on weaker teams like Germany and 2 goals against Belarus.

Incase anyone forgot, here's a good retrospective:

https://www.cbc.ca/sportslongform/entry/1998-olympic-hockey

So this placed Eric Lindros as the centerpiece of 2 of the most embarrassing flops in Canadian hockey history. This is where I (along with a LOT of Canadians) stopped "buying the narrative" that he was who we were told he was. This transcendent generational superstar who belonged with the Gretzky's and Lemieux's.

Nope not even close. He wasn't even in the Sakic/Yzerman stratosphere and never was.

Then everything afterwards really solidified that narrative:
He was completely ineffective in the Cup finals. His one goal was in game 4 of a sweep with no time left.
He couldn't be counted on to score the big goal.
He wasn't clutch, barely showed up best on best.
Every time he was faced in that championship situation he showed his belly.

And yes, I am completely aware he "won" his gold medal in Salt Lake city. But you could've put one of 20 other players in his place, and they still would have won gold. He wasn't the straw that stirred any kind of drink and he never was. That Salt Lake City win was carried by Mario and Sakic.


When I read this thread, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. I feel like the rest of you guys are all suckered into thinking Lindros was this elite champion that could will wins, and do all the shit legends do.. but he like never did. He was supposed to be Mark Messier v2.0 but I didn't ever see Lindros "Guaranteeing a win" against Brodeur/Stevens and then scoring a Hat Trick in an elimination game.

I feel like most of this thread is completely committed to the player Lindros was SUPPOSED to be but never was.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I agree if you omit the times he won then Lindros did not win much internationally.

 

[Daximus]

I sooooo disagree with this. I understand that it's the logic, but the reality doesn't reflect that.

First and most obviously - Connor McDavid just had the best playoffs in a generation as the speediest speed guy to ever speed. But also there are so many notable "big, playoff" types that have been gigantic duds, and small guys that absolutely excel. In Tampa you have Point and Kucherov, two undersized forwards - one of which works almost exclusively on the perimeter - as two of the best playoff performers of the generation. To the other side you have big, strong guys like Rick Nash and Joe Thornton who were legendary for the inability to raise their game in the playoffs.

Basically that's all to say that while I understand the logic, I don't think that's actually reflected in reality.

Joe and Nash may have been big but they are in the Matthews kind of big category. Big boy but not in any way overly physical or mean.

I'm not saying speed and skill can't still compete and maybe comparing it to the actual DPE is a little far but it certainly changes come playoff time. We just watched the Panthers bully their way to 2 consecutive Cup finals while getting away with all sorts of stuff. They subscribe to the DPE notion of "they can't call everything".

 

[BraveCanadian]

Joe and Nash may have been big but they are in the Matthews kind of big category. Big boy but not in any way overly physical or mean.

I'm not saying speed and skill can't still compete and maybe comparing it to the actual DPE is a little far but it certainly changes come playoff time. We just watched the Panthers bully their way to 2 consecutive Cup finals while getting away with all sorts of stuff. They subscribe to the DPE notion of "they can't call everything".

Joe thought he was mean until he met Eric. lol

 

[The Macho King]

Lindros gets so much mileage out of his pre-draft hype on how he is perceived after the fact.

First - get it out of the way - the dude was a physical freak. People just aren't built that way so... yeah good for him for that.

Second though - it wasn't just head contact. The dude could not stay healthy. His only real "full" season in his prime was the shortened one. And it wasn't all concussions (but obviously those were notable). Solid per game performances but also wasn't at a Mario level - more of a Jagr-level, and obviously without Jagr's health.

He's a bit of a "what-if", but I am vocally on the side of that he's not much of one. He missed so much time because of his style of play, but his style of play is what made him effective. You can't say "oh if he stayed healthy" and handwave away the fact that a healthy Lindros is a less effective Lindros.

 

[Daximus]

I went hunting for an article I read a while ago when I was shocked at Lindros' induction into the HHOF:

This article almost reads like an apology for his induction:
Rooting For Goliath

But I CLEARLY remembered the first part of his career the exact same way.
- Team Canada lost to the World Cup in 1996 to the USA.
- Lindros was supposed to 'take over' from the old guard as the face of Canada.
He was the Hart winner in 1995 but he fell flat and was just mostly ineffective during a best on best tournament.

Team Canada needed an old washed up post-Suter hit 36 year old Gretzky to lead them to a gold, but this was supposed to be Lindros' coming out party. This was supposed to be the moment he stepped onto the big stage and become the iconic Canadian champion that won us that gold.

Nope, outshone by tournament MVP Brett Hull and Mike Richter. 6 points in 8 games, and just an all-round dud of a performance.

Fast Forward 2 years later. Lindros was supposed to be the centerpiece of an invincible Team Canada Dream Team in the Nagano Olympics based on Lindros' identity constructed by his GM who intentionally left Mark Messier off the roster.

So how did MIGHTY Lindros fare with the might of Team Canada behind him following his leadership?
5 points in 6 games mostly compiling on weaker teams like Germany and 2 goals against Belarus.

Incase anyone forgot, here's a good retrospective:

https://www.cbc.ca/sportslongform/entry/1998-olympic-hockey

So this placed Eric Lindros as the centerpiece of 2 of the most embarrassing flops in Canadian hockey history. This is where I (along with a LOT of Canadians) stopped "buying the narrative" that he was who we were told he was. This transcendent generational superstar who belonged with the Gretzky's and Lemieux's.

Nope not even close. He wasn't even in the Sakic/Yzerman stratosphere and never was.

Then everything afterwards really solidified that narrative:
He was completely ineffective in the Cup finals. His one goal was in game 4 of a sweep with no time left.
He couldn't be counted on to score the big goal.
He wasn't clutch, barely showed up best on best.
Every time he was faced in that championship situation he showed his belly.

And yes, I am completely aware he "won" his gold medal in Salt Lake city. But you could've put one of 20 other players in his place, and they still would have won gold. He wasn't the straw that stirred any kind of drink and he never was. That Salt Lake City win was carried by Mario and Sakic.


When I read this thread, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. I feel like the rest of you guys are all suckered into thinking Lindros was this elite champion that could will wins, and do all the shit legends do.. but he like never did. He was supposed to be Mark Messier v2.0 but I didn't Lindros Guaranteeing wins against Brodeur/Stevens and then scoring a Hat Trick.

Yeah I think Lindros sort of had this mystical aura that still follows him to this day. He was never the best in the game at any point in time even when healthy. Was he an athletic freak monster? For sure. The announcement of his presence was always bigger than his actual presence.

Joe thought he was mean until he met Eric. lol

At no point in time have I ever considered Joe Thornton a mean player. Sure he'd drop the gloves every once in awhile but I certainly would never call him mean.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

I agree if you omit the times he won then Lindros did not win much internationally.

This is a thread where people are saying Lindros was some kind of transcendent talent who could will teams to victory and came up clutch scoring GWG. you know the Kinda shit legends did like 66 and 99. Or Sakic in Salt Lake City, or Crosbys Golden goal.

And then there's Lindros being sent as a complimentary player while being nowhere near an MVP and 16th in scoring ON HIS OWN TEAM.

IS this your "Generational talent" who was the best player in history who would win all the Art Rosses against Mcdavid?? He had numerous chances to be "the hero" but fell flat on his face every goddamn time. Why the f*** he's being mentioned in the same category as any of the all-time greats is beyond me.

I

 

[Masked]

Bringing him down?
Posters on here are saying he would easily win the Ross year in and year out in this era, and I call bullshit.

Please link to those posts or I call bullshit.

 

[BraveCanadian]

This is a thread where people are saying Lindros was some kind of transcendent talent who could will teams to victory and came up clutch scoring GWG. you know the Kinda shit legends did like 66 and 99. Or Sakic in Nagano, or Crosbys Golden goal.

And then there's Lindros being sent as a complimentary player while being nowhere near an MVP and 16th in scoring ON HIS OWN TEAM.

IS this your "Generational talent" who was the best player in history who would win all the Art Rosses against Mcdavid?? He had numerous chances to be "the hero" but fell flat on his face every goddamn time. Why the f*** he's being mentioned in the same category as any of the all-time greats is beyond me.


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No one holds up Lindros in 2002 as the best player in the world so I'm not sure what you're on about.

Lindros was definitely in the conversation for best player in the world before all the injuries slowed him down and I don't think anyone can dispute that unless it is revisionist history. At least for those of us who realize best player in the world doesn't always simply mean "scored the most points". He did win a Hart trophy and was a finalist again in the only seasons he played most of the games.

Lindros was a dominating factor at ES, I know that from many previous discussions on the history board.

He kind of slots into the Crosby / Jagr etc. tier below the true generational talents, but with a bunch of extra nastiness that ultimately cost him a long career.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Please link to those posts or I call bullshit.

Why haven't we seen another Eric Lindros?

As the NHL expands and if other cultures are able to have accessibility/affordability, I would wager the chances of another one like him coming down the road will increase to likelihood...but Big E was a unique specimen. Weren't kids at hitting at like U9 in Lindros's day? Most of the push now...

forums.hfboards.com

 

[tucker3434]

It's hard to be big and fast. Most big guys are slow. But every once in a while, there's a LeBron James, Cam Newton or Eric Lindros. There will be others. Just not very often.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Why haven't we seen another Eric Lindros?

As the NHL expands and if other cultures are able to have accessibility/affordability, I would wager the chances of another one like him coming down the road will increase to likelihood...but Big E was a unique specimen. Weren't kids at hitting at like U9 in Lindros's day? Most of the push now...

forums.hfboards.com

"He would be up there with" =/= would win the Art Ross every year easily