Why haven't we seen another Eric Lindros?

[Figgy44]

I was merely stating that there's no inherent bias in my assertion. I'm not coming to my conclusion because of any dislike. I was 16 years old when he entered the league. I remember the hype and the three-ring circus that followed him around.

Hockey IQ isn't just about speed or finesse or the power of your shot or how strong you are. It's an innate awareness of where you are on the ice, everyone else, and the ability to use that to your advantage. The ability not just to make space for yourself, but to find it or predict it. Playing chess while everyone else played checkers. Eric had a lot of tools. But how often did he truly display a level of intelligence that put him ahead of others? "A head for the game". If he had a better head on his shoulders, it wouldn't have been knocked off nearly as many times as it was.

He simply isn't in my top 20 players of all time.

Oops, I typed that wrong. I didn't mean to say he was top 10-20 of all time. That's a mistake and I can totally see if that added to the confusion. My bad if that's the case. I meant to write there that he was top 10-20 fastest of all time to reach 600 points.

You said it's an innate awareness of where you are on the ice, everyone else and ability to use that to your advantage. He did that and maintained control of the puck. He perhaps just didn't do it in the way you prefer. Lemieux also went through players because he knew he could, just differently than Lindros did. If you're comparing him to Lemieux and Gretzky, that's an issue because those guys are genius hockey IQ. Lindros doesn't have to be genius level to be high hockey IQ. You also need high hockey IQ to score points at the rate Lindros was doing.

I hope I'm not interpreting incorrectly that Lindros having a bunch of concussions is an example of lack of hockey IQ. Just because someone has really high hockey IQ doesn't mean they have to have it in all categories of all facets of hockey to stand above their peers. Especially when we also now know of the snowballing effect of CTE which wasn't known back then. Otherwise, someone like Kariya and a handful of other players cut short due to concussions would be considered low IQ. I assume that's not what you're trying to say.

I think it's fair to criticize his lack of self preservation as a facet of who he was. But in general, I think others aren't going to disregard all of the other high level understanding of the game (ie: Hockey IQ) and imply he's low hockey IQ purely based on that one facet of self preservation and getting concussions.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

You made this entire post and wasted so much time not even realising how different the areas were lol. Lindros in today's ticky-tacky pens and fast speeds would completely and utterly dominate.

LMFAO AHAHAHAHAHAHAH

HAHAHAHAHA AH AHHAHAHAHA AHHAAH (Oh god let me catch my breath) HAGHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH


Dude ALWAYS skated with his head down


That Stevens hit was the 4th concussion THAT YEAR from skating with his head down.
Dude spends the entire game staring at his laces and skating into open ice:

Generational My ass. Generational at getting knocked the f*** out maybe.
Kasperitis


Gill


Pilon


Doig


Lindros injures himself:


Jovonovski:




And It's not like that Scott Stevens hit came out of nowhere. They had a LOT of history and bad blood between them. A LOT of history.

Here's the headbutt that predated Lindros getting demolished:


If you do that to GREATEST hitter in NHL history with a reputation for absolutely demolishing players cutting across the middle, Lindros needed to be aware Stevens was hunting him.


No.. This dumb as bricks player who stared at his skates is not anything close to being a "generational" player. I don;t know where he got this reputation as some unstoppable force, or better than today's players, but no. He was not as good as anyone here seems to recall.

 

[MMANumminen]

In the era of big bad men, Lindros was the biggest and baddest. Sure there were monsters who could beat him up but he could do well against heavyweights too. And he was also top-5-10 most skilled player. He was truly generational talent and too bad his career was short.

I can't think of anyone being comparable to him

 

[Perfect_Drug]

You made this entire post and wasted so much time not even realising how different the areas were lol. Lindros in today's ticky-tacky pens and fast speeds would completely and utterly dominate.

I am very aware of how slow players were back then.
The faster Players today now could catch Lindros staring at his skates much more easily.


Ohh wow.. this guy with 865 career points is the most dominant offensive force the league has ever seen, and would dominate McDavid year after year.



Puhhh-leeeze.


You realise Matt Duchene is going to pass him in the all-time list this year right?

 

[BLNY]

Oops, I typed that wrong. I didn't mean to say he was top 10-20 of all time. That's a mistake and I can totally see if that added to the confusion. My bad if that's the case. I meant to write there that he was top 10-20 fastest of all time to reach 600 points.

You said it's an innate awareness of where you are on the ice, everyone else and ability to use that to your advantage. He did that and maintained control of the puck. He perhaps just didn't do it in the way you prefer. Lemieux also went through players because he knew he could, just differently than Lindros did. If you're comparing him to Lemieux and Gretzky, that's an issue because those guys are genius hockey IQ. Lindros doesn't have to be genius level to be high hockey IQ. You also need high hockey IQ to score points at the rate Lindros was doing.

I hope I'm not interpreting incorrectly that Lindros having a bunch of concussions is an example of lack of hockey IQ. Just because someone has really high hockey IQ doesn't mean they have to have it in all categories of all facets of hockey to stand above their peers. Especially when we also now know of the snowballing effect of CTE which wasn't known back then. Otherwise, someone like Kariya and a handful of other players cut short due to concussions would be considered low IQ. I assume that's not what you're trying to say.

I think it's fair to criticize his lack of self preservation as a facet of who he was. But in general, I think others aren't going to disregard all of the other high level understanding of the game (ie: Hockey IQ) and imply he's low hockey IQ purely based on that one facet of self preservation and getting concussions.

Everyone is a little different. No question that his approach was different than Lemieux or Gretzky. The greatest players have a cerebral quality that he just didn't have. He played the NHL game exactly the way he played in junior. He never showed capacity to learn and adapt.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

In the era of big bad men, Lindros was the biggest and baddest. Sure there were monsters who could beat him up but he could do well against heavyweights too. And he was also top-5-10 most skilled player. He was truly generational talent and too bad his career was short.

I can't think of anyone being comparable to him

Where is this coming from?

I remember watching a lot of Lindros since he entered the league and nobody ever considered him an top 5-10 skilled player in the era he played. He wasn't close to being generational.

He was an adequately skilled player who was dumb as bricks with little to no on-ice awareness and routinely got leveled by everyone. He played a style of game that could be contained in the playoffs, and only lead his own team in scoring 3 times.

The only thing he brought to the game, was a unique bull-in-chinashop style game that left him often injured and an early decline due to extreme wear and tear.


He never won an Art Ross, never got a Rocket, and never won a cup. He has 865 points, and only broke 100 points once in his career (when Lemieux got 160 in 70 games).

 

[Garbageyuk]

Sort of, but Malkin has a little more skill and a little less physicality. Think Tom Wilson style physicality, welcoming the contact and looking to run guys through the end boards just because he can. Then Malkin level skating with just slightly less refined stick handling and puck control.

What was said upthread is accurate, he’s a guy you see once every 50 years if you’re lucky. He had everything you’d want in a big power center.

Lol, Malkin does not have more skill. Lindros’ career was derailed by injuries, otherwise he would’ve been probably a top 5 player all time. The package of physical attributes, athleticism, and skill was unreal. Lindros scored at a 100 point pace as a rookie (75 points in 61 games); he had skill in spades, higher than Malkin. He had the physical attributes on top.

 

[Filatov2Kovalev2Bonk]

The Big E in his prime was UNREAL...the Darth Vader of the NHL.

He ended Andreas Dackell here in Ottawa and I came. The raw violence and savagery of prime Lindros was something I would have loved on the Senators, and my wife in Quebec I am sure.

We'll never see this again, the league is too porcelain-coated for vicious, mean, annihilating hits to happen on the reg.

 

[MMANumminen]

Where is this coming from?

I remember watching a lot of Lindros since he entered the league and nobody ever considered him an top 5-10 skilled player in the era he played. He wasn't close to being generational.

He was an adequately skilled player who was dumb as bricks with little to no on-ice awareness and routinely got leveled by everyone. He played a style of game that could be contained in the playoffs, and only lead his own team in scoring 3 times.

The only thing he brought to the game, was a unique bull-in-chinashop style game that left him often injured and an early decline due to extreme wear and tear.


He never won an Art Ross, never got a Rocket, and never won a cup. He has 865 points, and only broke 100 points once in his career (when Lemieux got 160 in 70 games).

IIRC he was chosen to Team Kanada with Gretzky and Lemieux and few other quite big legends without playing one game in the NHL. That's pretty special.

Also getting leveled with Stevens or Kasparaitis is not getting levelled by everyone.

There were few elite players outside of Mario in the 90's like Jagr, Fedorov, Yzerman, Sakic, Selänne and Bure but my eyetest, that is more reliable than any of uneducated guesses or statisctics say Lindros was better than them

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Also getting leveled with Stevens or Kasparaitis is not getting levelled by everyone.

There were few elite players outside of Mario in the 90's like Jagr, Fedorov, Yzerman, Sakic, Selänne and Bure but my eyetest, that is more reliable than any of uneducated guesses or statisctics say Lindros was better than them

And from my eye test, he was nowhere close to any of them.

On top of not really passing my eyetest, he doesn't have the stats, the hardware, or the cups to back any of that up. He's become some mythological being that seemed to get better 2 decades after his peak (which really wasn't that high).

He has that one Hart Trophy, but to say he would be regularly winning the Art Ross in today's game is totally laughable.

IIRC he was chosen to Team Kanada with Gretzky and Lemieux and few other quite big legends without playing one game in the NHL. That's pretty special.

That is not a Stanley Cup, and Mario wasn't there.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Lol, Malkin does not have more skill. Lindros’ career was derailed by injuries, otherwise he would’ve been probably a top 5 player all time. The package of physical attributes, athleticism, and skill was unreal. Lindros scored at a 100 point pace as a rookie (75 points in 61 games); he had skill in spades, higher than Malkin. He had the physical attributes on top.

Malkin absolutely has more puck skill than Lindros. Lindros had nice hands for a big man, but he was not some Mario Lemieux type with elite hands AND size. It was his size and speed that made him so dangerous. He could freight-train straight at the D knowing they couldn’t knock him off the puck legally, then use that reach to pull the puck horizontally or just rip a shot with all that leverage on his stick. Yes he had good hands but it’s not like he had the puck on a string.

 

[1989]

You made this entire post and wasted so much time not even realising how different the areas were lol. Lindros in today's ticky-tacky pens and fast speeds would completely and utterly dominate.

Skaters of the last 10 years are vastly improved.

People bemoan the loss of great power forwards but other than the fact it is a very taxing style of play leading to generally shortened careers, if it was half as effective as we think it would be in this era, the best players would be power forwards but they aren't.

Size still exists, speed still exists, players with both traits exist, and to combine it with a willingness to go through a player versus around still exists - so where did all the power forwards go? I argue that it's actually lost effectiveness as everyone else and systems got better.

It's often said that people will do anything it takes to win. But if it's not conducive and effective then why waste the time and effort? And I loved power forwards but there's a reason Lindros and co. aren't really around any more. Ovechkin is a rare example, but Bertuzzi, Iginla, Nash all faded away a hockey generation ago.

He ended Andreas Dackell here in Ottawa and I came. The raw violence and savagery of prime Lindros was something I would have loved on the Senators, and my wife in Quebec I am sure.

We'll never see this again, the league is too porcelain-coated for vicious, mean, annihilating hits to happen on the reg.

Trouba exists. Phaneuf existed. Pronger existed.

For recency: In terms of physicality, meanness and domination Pronger was probably the most effective while becoming more injury-prone and lacking as much longevity, but he is considered to be right alongside Lidstrom in conversations of best defencemen of their generation, and Lidstrom is considered as a top-5 blueliner all time and a top-25 player; probably the most recent addition to those lofty ranks before Crosby and Ovechkin call it a career.

Lindros generally isn't considered to be the best of his contemporaries, let alone all-time.

He has the stink of "never learned to mature his game past Junior" because in fairness, it still worked in the NHL for a while because of how exceptional his physical abilities were - except he finally started playing against men who were just as strong, just as mean, and unfortunately for him, smarter.

 

[Garbageyuk]

Malkin absolutely has more puck skill than Lindros.

You said simply “skill” before, which was what I responded to. Now you’re saying “puck skill” specifically. Which is it?

but he was not some Mario Lemieux type with elite hands AND size.

There’s a big gap between “as skilled/more skilled than Malkin” and Mario Lemieux level of skill. I said nothing about Mario Lemieux.

It was his size and speed that made him so dangerous.

No, it was his combination of size, speed, and skill. There are plenty of big fast guys in the NHL at any given time. None of them are like Lindros.

 

[tarheelhockey]

You said simply “skill” before, which was what I responded to. Now you’re saying “puck skill” specifically. Which is it?

TBH I don’t think it really matters which kind of skill we’re talking about. Malkin was a better skater, puck handler, and shooter than Lindros. The gap between them is closed by Lindros being taller and a lot heavier (like 50 pounds heavier) which is saying something considering Malkin is not exactly a small man. Lindros’ advantage in size and weight allowed him to utilize his skills differently.

There’s a big gap between “as skilled/more skilled than Malkin” and Mario Lemieux level of skill. I said nothing about Mario Lemieux.

If you’re saying a 6’3”+ center has more skill than Malkin (bearing in mind Malkin is a two-time Art Ross winner and a peak Ovechkin away from being a three-time Hart winner) then you are talking about a combination of size and skill that gets into Lemieux range. Lindros was not that.

No, it was his combination of size, speed, and skill. There are plenty of big fast guys in the NHL at any given time. None of them are like Lindros.

Yes Lindros was very skilled for a man of his size. That does not mean he was a top-tier skill player. Put him in a smaller frame and nobody would be saying “wow, that guy has crazy skill compared to NHL stars”. It was the fact that he was a good stickhandler and good shooter that made him damn near unstoppable, because a player of that skill level is very hard to stop when you can’t get the puck away from him. But again, if he were a top-tier skill player with a 6’4” 250lb frame he would put video game numbers, like a Lemieux. He didn’t do that because he wasn’t that.

 

[Kuz]

Ovechkin got flattened by Rasmus Ristolainen, when it was Ovechkin that charged towards Risto.

Players literally FLEW when Lindros hit them. Both skates left the ground and landed 5-7 feet from initial contact.



Check the hit starting at 1:05

He also threw Chara in to the bench. Ovi was a little unbalanced running in to Risto heile Risto was better balansed.

 

[The Shadow]

People forget how dominant he was.

 

[dirtydanglez]

ovechkin? he was always at the top for goals and hits.

 

[Garbageyuk]

Yes Lindros was very skilled for a man of his size.

You continue to downplay him, for some reason. Thats a statement you make about guys like Nichushkin and Slafkovsky, not Lindros, who was on another level. Lindros was skilled, period. Like, elite skill. Not sure why you have such a problem saying it.

 

[Rich Nixon]

I am very aware of how slow players were back then.
The faster Players today now could catch Lindros staring at his skates much more easily.


Ohh wow.. this guy with 865 career points is the most dominant offensive force the league has ever seen, and would dominate McDavid year after year.



Puhhh-leeeze.


You realise Matt Duchene is going to pass him in the all-time list this year right?

You're talking silly. Eric Lindros had a 1.35 PPG in his 8 years as a Flyer—before the concussions and other injuries truly diminished him. That's Orr, Dionne, Crosby territory, mostly accumulated during the lowest-scoring era in league history. Matt Duchene's name shouldn't be near this thread and you should feel shame for typing it.

The guy held out his 18 year old season and still scored his 500th point on his 24th birthday. Most dominant? Who knows. But top 5? With a bullet.

 

[tarheelhockey]

You continue to downplay him, for some reason. Thats a statement you make about guys like Nichushkin and Slafkovsky, not Lindros, who was on another level. Lindros was skilled, period. Like, elite skill. Not sure why you have such a problem saying it.

Because I watched him and remember his assets and limitations. That’s not a problem, it’s perspective and memory.

I said upthread, Lindros is a guy you might encounter once every 50 years, if that. I fully appreciate how rare it is to have a 6’4”, 250lb center who can skate and handle the puck at a high level.

The obvious historic comparable is Gordie Howe, except Howe absolutely dominated the league in PPG (a streak of 1-1-1-1-4-2-1-1 in his prime) whereas Lindros was “only” elite but not transcendent (3-1-3-2-6-4). Offensively, Lindros profiles closer to Nikita Kucherov (4-4-1-8-2-5-1) than to a Gordie Howe. And that’s looking through a lens that helps Lindros by measuring him according to his scoring rate, which doesn’t account for how many games he missed injured.

When we talk about top-tier skill players in that era, we talk about Lemieux, Jagr, Forsberg, Sakic, Selanne, Kariya, Bure, Fedorov. Lindros had a size advantage on all of those guys, but he was not at that level as a skill player. If he was at their level of skill, AND had that same size advantage, he would have dominated at a higher level than he did. This checks out with the eye test where although he did occasionally throw a highlight reel move at an opponent, it was usually by exploiting his reach to keep the puck away from them, or exploiting speed and leverage to bully past them on the rush, or just hammering the puck past the goalie. Not so much juking guys out of their socks or leaving them in the dust with amazing skating.

 

[Drake1588]

To those who didn't watch him, it's difficult to properly convey how incredibly polarizing a player the Big E was on the ice. Depending on the year, this is either an absolute tank of a player who teams couldn't stop, or an injury-prone drama magnet whose greatest critics ended up being in his own Flyers front office. Clarke had it in for him by those last years (his family didn't help).

Incredible tool set, including fantastic vision, skating, physical attributes, shot, passing... just a five-tool player. He played physical and mean, capable of laying players out. Yet by his late 20s, he was increasingly a player who had a glass jaw and wicked blind spots, making him the one player in the league who was most viewed as a walking time bomb. In the most punishing era for concussions, his blatant weakness was his inability to tell when he was putting himself in danger and then taking that lane anyway. Didn't know who was on the ice, didn't shy away from danger areas nearly often enough. Playing as the biggest guy on the ice his whole life made him unable to tell when he was in trouble. He was plenty courageous but he lacked a healthy sense of self preservation.

The environment at the time was not conducive to protecting a player like that from himself. The league and its stewards among the GMs did not understand concussions well and had limited sympathy for those who were injured by them. He suffered the most from the ignominy of getting mocked for being hurt by fans of the league and eventually of his own team alike. Victim blaming was rampant and he became the poster boy for it.

I should add that by those last years, watching this player was a drag. So much potential, but he was so injured, so often, and there was always a five-alarm fire around him. It was cringeworthy watching him play for the last five, six years of his career. You expected him to get hurt.

Generational prospect, but as an NHL player? Mixed bag of sublime and painful.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

This era could never bring about another Lindros. He was a mean player who had a target on him because of it. And lol at the people that are saying Lindros wasn’t skilled. He averaged like 110 points per 82 games during his prime during the deadpuck era, and it’s not like he was purely scoring dirty goals because of his size.

The poster who brought up Achilles is spot on. He was a monster with one fatal flaw. One of the biggest NHL what-if stories. He was a highly skilled 6’4 240lb center with a wide mean streak. Maybe he wouldn’t have been targeted as much if he wasn’t a bull seeing red all over the ice. But then again, that’s what made Lindros Lindros. There were few players in NHL history who were as entertaining as him. A generational career? No. A generational talent? Definitely

 

[Rich Nixon]

Because I watched him and remember his assets and limitations. That’s not a problem, it’s perspective and memory.

I said upthread, Lindros is a guy you might encounter once every 50 years, if that. I fully appreciate how rare it is to have a 6’4”, 250lb center who can skate and handle the puck at a high level.

The obvious historic comparable is Gordie Howe, except Howe absolutely dominated the league in PPG (a streak of 1-1-1-1-4-2-1-1 in his prime) whereas Lindros was “only” elite but not transcendent (3-1-3-2-6-4). Offensively, Lindros profiles closer to Nikita Kucherov (4-4-1-8-2-5-1) than to a Gordie Howe. And that’s looking through a lens that helps Lindros by measuring him according to his scoring rate, which doesn’t account for how many games he missed injured.

When we talk about top-tier skill players in that era, we talk about Lemieux, Jagr, Forsberg, Sakic, Selanne, Kariya, Bure, Fedorov. Lindros had a size advantage on all of those guys, but he was not at that level as a skill player. If he was at their level of skill, AND had that same size advantage, he would have dominated at a higher level than he did. This checks out with the eye test where although he did occasionally throw a highlight reel move at an opponent, it was usually by exploiting his reach to keep the puck away from them, or exploiting speed and leverage to bully past them on the rush, or just hammering the puck past the goalie. Not so much juking guys out of their socks or leaving them in the dust with amazing skating.

I mean, you're really driving down into the semantic black hole at a certain point. It takes more skill to strike a guy out on 6 88-mph offspeed pitches than on 3 105-mph heaters, I guess, but a K's a K, and if you ask the hitters they probably don't care what word you used to describe each guy, and each pitcher would probably choose to throw the other guy's pitches if he could.

 

[Kimota]

Cause there's next to no physicality in hockey anymore along with no clutch ans grab. Back in the day you had to go through literally barbwires on the ice to get to a net plus armored spartan warriors. So you had to essentially have players that had what it takes to go through all this. Lindros was the perfect blueprint to be the dominant player of that era. Along with Owen Nolan, Petyr Forsberg, etc...The way hockey has changed, I predict in 20 years the average height of NHL players is gonna be 5 foot 6.

 

[Craig Ludwig]

If you lived through the Lindros era, you would get it and would avoid the petty jokes. For those who weren't from the era, he was one of the biggest guys playing, could skate very well, and had great hands/shot. Imagine Pat Maroon + another 20 pounds, but with great speed and fantastic hands. Hw was just that much bigger than everyone else. Defensemen would lose the puck out of fear when they both went into the corners together.

He made Canada's Olympic team at 19 years old. He was a phenom.

Problem was that in the OHL no one wanted to hit him, so he never had his head up. Had he learned to keep his head up, he would have had an Ovechkin type career. I see people mocking him here, but he was an absolute treat to watch in his prime.