Why don't NHL teams take more chances on players from smaller hockey nations?

[Chileiceman]

Teams can cut players in mid contract...teams can fire coaches in mid contract. The speculation about getting cut comes mostly from French media. I don't know how reliable it is because as you said he's not a real salary cap burden. And yes for a while he was on the pk, but towards the end of the season he was averaging 7 minutes a game. Offensively he's not even where Ronalds Kenins is. He's as you said, a solid fourth line center who will be replaced once a first round hotshot Philly draft pick proves himself in the AHL. And AHLers don't make peanuts unless 6 digits is peanuts and then some more 5 digit peanuts for callups. The draft is ridiculous though and it's been a complaint of mine for a long time. I used to have this lost of the stupidest picks from a few draft years. Twenty year old centers scoring at a .3 clip get drafted sometimes but it's a north American league, so their priorities are north Americans just like with any other league.

Actually players can't get cut mid-contract, unless they buy him out which is only a measure of last recourse because 2/3rds of the cap hit still counts against the cap.

 

[kabidjan18]

I don't know where you are getting these numbers but like i said, he actually started playing better and got more accustomed to NA ice as the year progressed and his TOI actually reflected that. Back in December-January he was averaging anywhere from 7 mins a night to 12 mins a night. He actually averaged close to 15mins per game in the months of March-April. Coincidently, he signed his 2 year extension back in early March. He's not going anywhere.

I never said I thought he was going to be cut, it was the French media that rumored it. I definitely wouldn't cut him because you would have to buy him out and he's cheap anyways I would just let a prospect overtake him which will happen sooner or later.

 

[Stand Witness]

I actually think you summed it up nicely with the '50 contract limit'.

That is probably the biggest reason teams don't sign a whole bunch of projects. The Marlies' have been doing this sort of thing because it doesn't count to the NHL limit but it isn't very beneficial to any players over in Europe because they could probably make more there with better conditions.

If the CBA ever allows up to 75 contracts and the ECHL or some other league becomes an official partner with each NHL team then you would see a lot more of this. For now you have to believe a player will be a legitimate NHL prospect or player.

 

[SmellOfVictory]

No mention of Zemgus Girgensons?

Girgensos spent the entirety of his late teens developing in the US system. There's nothing obscure about being drafted out of the USHL.

There's any number of reasons why an NHL team might not take a flyer on a guy from a less established hockey nation: a lot of teams run very close to the 50 contract limit, it's a lot harder to tell how good a player is when you don't have good context in terms of their competition, and some of these players may not even be interested in playing in North America.

 

[Chileiceman]

Perhaps slightly unrelated, but NHL scouts put a lot of stock in the World U18's when it comes to scouting Euro prospects for the draft. Most of the smaller nations are in the lower divisions so they wouldn't get the benefit of playing in front of NHL GM's and such.

I wonder how closely the MHL is scouted by the NHL. Kazakhs, Belorussians, Latvians and Austrians (EC Salzburg) should have a better chance at getting noticed for sharing the junior league with Russia, but who knows if that's the case.

 

[SillyRabbit]

I'll never forgive the Canucks for passing on Kopitar despite all the reports that he was a future superstar.

Literally the only knock against him was that "his country hasn't produced quality NHL talent."

Of course LA picked him one spot after us.

 

[Namejs]

Perhaps slightly unrelated, but NHL scouts put a lot of stock in the World U18's when it comes to scouting Euro prospects for the draft. Most of the smaller nations are in the lower divisions so they wouldn't get the benefit of playing in front of NHL GM's and such.

I wonder how closely the MHL is scouted by the NHL. Kazakhs, Belorussians, Latvians and Austrians (EC Salzburg) should have a better chance at getting noticed for sharing the junior league with Russia, but who knows if that's the case.

That's just not true. Latvia plays in the Elite tier quite a lot, but even then most of our leading junior players remain off the radar for some reason.

This will sound ridiculous, but it's almost like there's a bit of racism involved. Just to give you an example, a Latvian player made the top 10 scorers list in the U-18 WJC, but didn't make the top 350 in the NHL Central Scouting report.

Seriously, the part about U-18 or U-20 WJC almost seems like a myth at this point. Pretty much every single Latvian draftee has played in the North American juniors or some other well-scouted junior league before getting drafted.

I guess we'll be able to test that myth again after a couple of months, as there were a number of impressive performances in the U-18s. There should be at least 2 or 3 NHL prospects from that Latvian U-18 team based on their WJC showing.

Also, MHL seems to be largely ignored by NHL scouts. Almost every prospect drafted from there has played in the Russian junior team.

 

[Elvs]

Speaking of Latvians, Rodrigo Abols was eligable for the draft last year wasn't he? This year he has 5 points in 14 KHL games and is on Latvias WC team. Not bad for a recently turned 19 year old. I don't get why a team wouldn't draft a kid like this in the 7th round at least. Judging from his KHL stats he should be drafted a lot higher.

 

[Namejs]

True but the top players can also make over 500,000, though generally between 250 and 550 thousand. And small countries are not exclusive to Latvia. Most small countries don't have access to the KHL with the same ease that latvia does having Dinamo riga drafting latvian longshots in the low rounds of the KHL draft. The average salaries in the SHL and SM-Liiga actually are fairly comparable to the AHL in spread. A Slovenian for example can chose to be an import and receive import salary in finland, or in the US, neither is particularly high paying or rosy.

No, that's not true. Literally only a few AHL players make that much and they are usually guys with one-way contracts who've been sent down from their NHL team.

And I wasn't talking only about Latvia. Any solid pro player can make the European top leagues or the KHL. If they can't make it in Europe, they won't make it in North America.

And, no, the salaries in SHL or NLA are a lot higher than 70k. The average salary is somewhere around 200k there, or more, and it's a lot higher in the KHL.

 

[Sanderson]

That's just not true. Latvia plays in the Elite tier quite a lot, but even then most of our leading junior players remain off the radar for some reason.

This will sound ridiculous, but it's almost like there's a bit of racism involved. Just to give you an example, a Latvian player made the top 10 scorers list in the U-18 WJC, but didn't make the top 350 in the NHL Central Scouting report.

Seriously, the part about U-18 or U-20 WJC almost seems like a myth at this point. Pretty much every single Latvian draftee has played in the North American juniors or some other well-scouted junior league before getting drafted.

I guess we'll be able to test that myth again after a couple of months, as there were a number of impressive performances in the U-18s. There should be at least 2 or 3 NHL prospects from that Latvian U-18 team based on their WJC showing.

Also, MHL seems to be largely ignored by NHL scouts. Almost every prospect drafted from there has played in the Russian junior team.

It most definately has nothing to do with racism, the word doesn't even fit here, as almost all hockey-players share the same race.

Scouting lists have a whole lot more to take into account than a single tournament. Sometimes players truly get overlooked, at other times times their whole package is just not that intriguing. You have to remember, they are looking for players who can exceed in the NHL, not for players who can exceed against junior players.

European players playing in North America obviously get more attention. They can be scouted much more often and they already have shown a willingness to come over to North America, implying that they are serious about a shot at playing in the NHL.

On top of that, why bother drafting "lower-level" talents from the smaller hockey nations, when you can just wait and see how they turn out?
The high-end talent of these nations will be drafted anyway, but when it comes to the borderline prospects, you aren't really taking a risk by not drafting them. Many of these take quite a bit to develop, and might not look all that impressive if you'd have to put them in the AHL at age 20. You can just wait and see how they turn out and sign them once they are 21 or 22, something you can't do if you draft them, as you would lose the rights too early.

 

[Namejs]

Speaking of Latvians, Rodrigo Abols was eligable for the draft last year wasn't he? This year he has 5 points in 14 KHL games and is on Latvias WC team. Not bad for a recently turned 19 year old. I don't get why a team wouldn't draft a kid like this in the 7th round at least.

Yup, absolutely. He also made the Latvian national team and has worked his way up the pecking order from being 'one of the young kids we'll test in exhibition games' to the 3rd line C spot in the World Championship. And I would probably move him up to the 2nd line.

Still - he probably won't get drafted anyway.

 

[Namejs]

It most definately has nothing to do with racism, the word doesn't even fit here, as almost all hockey-players share the same race.

Scouting lists have a whole lot more to take into account than a single tournament. Sometimes players truly get overlooked, at other times times their whole package is just not that intriguing. You have to remember, they are looking for players who can exceed in the NHL, not for players who can exceed against junior players.

European players playing in North America obviously get more attention. They can be scouted much more often and they already have shown a willingness to come over to North America, implying that they are serious about a shot at playing in the NHL.

On top of that, why bother drafting "lower-level" talents from the smaller hockey nations, when you can just wait and see how they turn out?
The high-end talent of these nations will be drafted anyway, but when it comes to the borderline prospects, you aren't really taking a risk by not drafting them. Many of these take quite a bit to develop, and might not look all that impressive if you'd have to put them in the AHL at age 20. You can just wait and see how they turn out and sign them once they are 21 or 22, something you can't do if you draft them, as you would lose the rights too early.

The term 'racism' extends beyond race (as in 'black' or 'white'). In English the term 'race' itself is not limited to skin colour.

And, yes, it most definitely does look racist, if players are overlooked just based on their origin. And that's exactly what's going on, it would be silly to deny that.

I didn't make the statement that they should draft players solely on their performance in a single tournament and if you want to talk about how there's a lot more to take into account, you're either talking to the wrong person or making a strawman argument.

As for your last paragraph, there are numerous posts in this thread, which explain why not drafting European prospects can lead to them playing in Europe or Russia for the rest of their careers.

And just to make sure - I don't want to imply that all NHL GMs are racist. It's just one of the many factors in the selection process. It's the same thing with undersized players or players born late in their draft years - there's a systematic negative bias towards them for no rational reason.

More importantly, some leagues in Europe simply aren't scouted well enough.

 

[slovakiasnextone]

Perhaps slightly unrelated, but NHL scouts put a lot of stock in the World U18's when it comes to scouting Euro prospects for the draft. Most of the smaller nations are in the lower divisions so they wouldn't get the benefit of playing in front of NHL GM's and such.

I wonder how closely the MHL is scouted by the NHL. Kazakhs, Belorussians, Latvians and Austrians (EC Salzburg) should have a better chance at getting noticed for sharing the junior league with Russia, but who knows if that's the case.

Yeah, right, have you seen their roster? When you look at the most poductive players on the team it's:

1. Slovak
2. German
3. Italian
4. and 5. Czechs
6. Swede
7. Austrian, but he's a 21 old D playing in a junior league
8. Italian
9. German
10. Finn

That's 7 players on that list who are from pretty much established hockey nations (yeah, I count Germans into that, 68 of them were drafted in the history of the draft, more than Swiss at this point) and they never were talked abou as having NHL future.

Sure it's tougher for European playes making it to the NHL than NA players (it is an NA league after all) and it might be even harder for the weaker nations (actually at this point it's even harder for a Czech than it is for a Swede for example), but come on it's not like there are 5 undiscovered NHL players per team skating on the non top 6 teams at the Worlds...

Also, I think that it's questionable whether it would be useful for these nations to have those players in the NHL as it would mean that there would be a high chance that they wouldn't be available for the Worlds or the Olympics qualification. I mean, just look at Denmark, they have the majority of their top players in NHL/AHL and with the exception of the 2010 Worlds always get outperformed by the European teams made up mostly of Euro players at the World and in the OG qualifiers.

 

[Sanderson]

The term 'racism' extends beyond race (as in 'black' or 'white'). In English the term 'race' itself is not limited to skin colour.

And, yes, it most definitely does look racist, if players are overlooked just based on their origin. And that's exactly what's going on, it would be silly to deny that.

I didn't make the statement that they should draft players solely on their performance in a single tournament and if you want to talk about how there's a lot more to take into account, you're either talking to the wrong person or making a strawman argument.

As for your last paragraph, there are numerous posts in this thread, which explain why not drafting European prospects can lead to them playing in Europe or Russia for the rest of their careers.

And just to make sure - I don't want to imply that all NHL GMs are racist. It's just one of the many factors in the selection process. It's the same thing with undersized players or players born late in their draft years - there's a systematic negative bias towards them for no rational reason.

More importantly, some leagues in Europe simply aren't scouted well enough.

No, the term racism most definately doesn't extend beyond that single meaning. 'Race' may occasionally be used in a different way, racism never has been.

There is no racism whatsoever in the choices being made, not even by your "definition" of racism. I've explicitly mentioned why "lower-level" talents may at times not be drafted, even if they may more talented than some draftees. There are quite a few reasons for that, racism is not one of them.

I never said that you made such a statement, I have no idea what makes you even think that, so you can take cour accusation and stuff it.

Either players are interested in playing in North America or they aren't. Not being drafted doesn't make them suddenly be completely disinterested in playing in the NHL. For an NHL-GM, drafting depends a lot on the circumstances. Why bother drafting someone from a smaller nation when he isn't garnering interest from other NHL-teams either?
As you even mention, there is little scouting being done, so there is less of a risk of this player being noticed by other NHL-teams than there is for a lower-level prospect from North America who suddenly makes a jump in his development. Why should an NHL-team draft a player from a smaller nation, when it can just wait and see how he turns out?

It's not like lower-level European prospects don't get drafted, plenty of them do. It's not like one scouting organisation not noticing one player has much of an influence either. There are plenty of scouts, few of them agree on everything, and it takes just one team to see things completely differently than anyone else.

 

[Jablkon]

It most definately has nothing to do with racism, the word doesn't even fit here, as almost all hockey-players share the same race.

Scouting lists have a whole lot more to take into account than a single tournament. Sometimes players truly get overlooked, at other times times their whole package is just not that intriguing. You have to remember, they are looking for players who can exceed in the NHL, not for players who can exceed against junior players.

European players playing in North America obviously get more attention. They can be scouted much more often and they already have shown a willingness to come over to North America, implying that they are serious about a shot at playing in the NHL.

On top of that, why bother drafting "lower-level" talents from the smaller hockey nations, when you can just wait and see how they turn out?
The high-end talent of these nations will be drafted anyway, but when it comes to the borderline prospects, you aren't really taking a risk by not drafting them. Many of these take quite a bit to develop, and might not look all that impressive if you'd have to put them in the AHL at age 20. You can just wait and see how they turn out and sign them once they are 21 or 22, something you can't do if you draft them, as you would lose the rights too early.

Completely agree. Just add to "racism" - the reputation of hockey school also has importance. There were rudiculous czech draft pics in early 00s just because of the czech hype. Similar with todays swedes. As it is often mentioned here about Simon from czech 4th line - if his name was "Simonson" he would be probably drafted...But thats normal. The most important thing is that czechs in that time and swedes worked hard on it and it brought/brings results....

Problem with Latvia is probably not a competitive and respectful pool... Central Europe is still not considered as a good venue for future NHLers. I remember just Hertl going straight from cz league to NHL. Still you can do here job like Detroit and find prospects who you need to develope a bit (Tatar, Jurco, Nosek etc.). However Latvia is still behind this area so they would firstly come here and than maybe check some other venues.

Still if the player is NHL eligible he should, with his agent's help, find the way to NHL. I can mention Palat, Gudas, Sustr who became regular NHLers in the hardest time of czech hockey.

Its a different story when you choose european way, become respectful player in your team an in NT. There were quite a lot of guys who tried NHL when they were lets say 26. I can not doubt their skills. They just simply werent able to switch their head to different roles and accept diff. treatment. When you are basically "star" already and you suddenly have to start from the beginning again - thats not what everybody wants to commit. Still possible (Hejda went in 27 and has been in NHL for almost 10 years, Zidlicky also went later from finnish league if I remember clear). I can not mention players from other states as my knowledge is not that good....

 

[tony d]

It's the scouting. Why go to a lesser nation like Austria when not many players come to the NHL from there? You'd rather go to Sweden, Finland, Russia, Czech Republic or Slovakia.

 

[slovakiasnextone]

Completely agree. Just add to "racism" - the reputation of hockey school also has importance. There were rudiculous czech draft pics in early 00s just because of the czech hype. Similar with todays swedes. As it is often mentioned here about Simon from czech 4th line - if his name was "Simonson" he would be probably drafted...But thats normal. The most important thing is that czechs in that time and swedes worked hard on it and it brought/brings results....

Problem with Latvia is probably not a competitive and respectful pool... Central Europe is still not considered as a good venue for future NHLers. I remember just Hertl going straight from cz league to NHL. Still you can do here job like Detroit and find prospects who you need to develope a bit (Tatar, Jurco, Nosek etc.). However Latvia is still behind this area so they would firstly come here and than maybe check some other venues.

Still if the player is NHL eligible he should, with his agent's help, find the way to NHL. I can mention Palat, Gudas, Sustr who became regular NHLers in the hardest time of czech hockey.

Its a different story when you choose european way, become respectful player in your team an in NT. There were quite a lot of guys who tried NHL when they were lets say 26. I can not doubt their skills. They just simply werent able to switch their head to different roles and accept diff. treatment. When you are basically "star" already and you suddenly have to start from the beginning again - thats not what everybody wants to commit. Still possible (Hejda went in 27 and has been in NHL for almost 10 years, Zidlicky also went later from finnish league if I remember clear). I can not mention players from other states as my knowledge is not that good....

Ľubo ViÅ¡ňovský comes to mind, he was 24 and playing in Slovak Extraliga when Slovakia finished 2nd at the Worlds in 2000. He was drafted that year as even older Euro players could be drafted back then, the next season he had 39 points in the NHL. Really can't imagine a player going from Extraliga straight to the NHL at 24 and becoming historically one of the top 3 Slovak D-men in the NHL.

But of course NHL teams not noticing Euro players until they're a bit older is nothing new, and there are different kinds of reasons. With Visnovsky him being 5'10" being the primary concern, I suppose.

 

[slovakiasnextone]

It's the scouting. Why go to a lesser nation like Austria when not many players come to the NHL from there? You'd rather go to Sweden, Finland, Russia, Czech Republic or Slovakia.

I don't know if there's a player that is good enough for the NHL in these countries chances are pretty much 99% that he will make his countries team for the World Championships, there are scouts there.

Also most of the countries we're talking about here play in Division I at the u18/u20 levels and while the attention it gets is obviously nowhere near as big as the elite levels, I don't think it's like no scouts ever go there.

Furthermore there's quite a number of players from these countries who play in countries like Sweden or Finland.

And I'm not quite sure why you'd pick Austria, I mean even Austrians themselves will agree that developmentally they are behind the likes of Denmark, Norway, Latvia or Belarus to name some examples.

 

[Elvs]

It's the scouting. Why go to a lesser nation like Austria when not many players come to the NHL from there? You'd rather go to Sweden, Finland, Russia, Czech Republic or Slovakia.

Nearly all the players I mentioned in the OP plays in the top european leagues.

 

[kabidjan18]

No, that's not true. Literally only a few AHL players make that much and they are usually guys with one-way contracts who've been sent down from their NHL team.

And I wasn't talking only about Latvia. Any solid pro player can make the European top leagues or the KHL. If they can't make it in Europe, they won't make it in North America.

And, no, the salaries in SHL or NLA are a lot higher than 70k. The average salary is somewhere around 200k there, or more, and it's a lot higher in the KHL.

http://work.chron.com/pro-hockey-salaries-1275.html
Players can make 200000, not make it on average. The best players only make twice that, so if the model is similar to the right skewed salary model typical to most leagues, the rest would be similar, with the AHL having a larger range and the SHL having a higher mean.

And as slovakiasnextone said I don't think Austria is the prime candidate for this. They have a massive hole where the draft class of 2016 is, literally no one even on the scouting radar. I don't think they're behind Norway anymore and I think they're close in on Belarus but Denmark is way ahead and latvia is close behind them. EC RBS is an Austrian - German team that is dominated by Germans and non-austrians mainly because of how poor Austrian junior hockey is. Austria's best prospects are from the Swiss and Swedish leagues with some playing in the CHL(3) or the USHL(2) due to the import drafts. Go for Latvia, they're a better case to argue. Out of all the non-russian MHL teams, the only player to be on the scouting list to my memory, Karlis Cukste at no.100. The problem with scouting nations without tradition is that they legitamitely are worse. The Austrian and Germany national teams for u15 and u13 used to take trips to Canada to play local teams and get absolutely demolished like a 1-4 record against local Canadian teams. And the MHL in general is a lower target for scouting that even leagues like the Superelit which are arguably less competitive.

 

[DangeRouss]

I never said I thought he was going to be cut, it was the French media that rumored it. I definitely wouldn't cut him because you would have to buy him out and he's cheap anyways I would just let a prospect overtake him which will happen sooner or later.

fake

never read or heard sth like this in French media

I watched many of Flyers game and I think PEB was a pleasent surprise for Flyers Fans and coaching staff.
But he has been asked to play defensive and with worst players than him (rinaldo, VDV, Lecavalier ^^). He can play C#3 without any difficulties IMO.

 

[Fragmuffin]

I'll never forgive the Canucks for passing on Kopitar despite all the reports that he was a future superstar.

Literally the only knock against him was that "his country hasn't produced quality NHL talent."

Of course LA picked him one spot after us.

Same thing goes for me and the Flyers passing on Pavel Buchnevich in the 3rd round so they can draft an overaged, grinder, undersized, available-in-every-offseason-for-min-league-salary Tyler Goulbourne.
I realise RUssia is not a "small hockey market", but it clearely shows NA bias a lot of teams have in regards to scouting.

 

[Beerfish]

They do and have done so for years.

 

[Jersey Fan 12]

Interesting seing Blaz mentioned here. At the IIHF International Camp for 15 year-olds he was on a team with Victor Hedman from the Lightning. That team's top all-around defenseman was actually from the Netherlands, Reinier Staats, though obviously he was not as big as Victor. Another defenseman was from France though I don't know that he ever played much hockey after that for whatever reason.

The goalie on that team was also outstanding — Felix Brueckmann from Germany — though why he has spent his entire career in Germany while Philipp Grubauer is currently in the NHL I'd imagine has to do mostly with his size (Felix is 5'10 while Grubauer is 6'1).

To answer the original query in this post I'd imagine it has to do with the pool of talent in those respective areas.

Many NHL clubs seem fairly conservative in their approach - you see a similar thing with college hockey recruiting here in the US where Canada, the NTDP, the USHL, the east coast junior programs and the NTDP are the major source of players.

It is safer to draft players from places like Canada, Michigan or the major junior leagues where they have been seen many times than it is to risk resources on players from the less prominent leagues in Europe.

Similarly, there are many scouts who see kids in Sweden, Russia and to a lesser degree but still significantly Finland and the Czech Republic.

The networks are not as established in the rest of Europe. Are there plenty of talented players in those respective areas. Of course.

For NHL clubs it's more feasible to wait and see which of those players develop and then pursue them as free agents.

This is true, but often they sign north americans who are worse. Using the Dan Milan vs Blaz Gregorc …..

 

[Paxon]

My assumption is that there aren't that many players who deserve a chance and don't get it. There are a good number of players from small nations that get a shot, considering that by nature of the issue those nations are small and produce fewer players worthy of a shot. Being from a smaller or non-traditional hockey nation definitely hurts a player's draft stock, but he will typically still get his shot, whether it's simply being drafted lower than he might deserve or by signing a free agent deal in his early 20's.