Why don't NHL teams take more chances on players from smaller hockey nations?
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MikeModano9
Registered User
I don't really think that's the case. If the player is good enough and makes the effort to play in the NHL he usually will. There are a bunch of good players from those Nations in the NHL right now. Denmark has a handful themselves.
And there's a couple of interesting veterans too. Most notably goaltender Bernard Starkbaum from Austria. He recently turned 29. Last three years in the SHL: 93.3%, 93.6% and 92.2%. And before today against the Czechs he was 95.1% through three games in the tournament. This guy in much likelyhood could be a good backup in the NHL.
A couple of other veterans that I like: Daniel Pietta (28 years) and Thomas Oppenheimer (26 years) from Germany.
A couple of other veterans that I like: Daniel Pietta (28 years) and Thomas Oppenheimer (26 years) from Germany.
He was a top prospect in his age, not a guy that Buffalo really "took a flyer" on. Kenins, Bellemare and Raffl were undrafted.
Commander Clueless
Apathy of the Leaf
- Sep 10, 2008
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Possibly in part because they don't have nearly as many scouts covering those leagues.
Who? Never heard of him
Who? Never heard of him
Cool, you just named why they don't. Ronalds Kenins has rosy-ish stats to hide long pointless streaks and bouncing back and forth between healthy scratch and fourth line. He's still young so he could have a breakout second year like Michael Raffl. For those who aren't Flyers fans and don't know anything about Bellemare, he's Philadelphia worst forward. There is some speculation he'll get cut. He was worst on the team in pp60, ap60, gp60, apg and was second worst in ppg and gpg to Zac Rinaldo who's a goon. David Wolf has worked out decently in the AHL. Of all those, the only one who has established himself is Michael Raffl with his 21 goal season, but there are more attractive things than having to develop a 25 year old rookie. I really totally agree with you and I think maybe some AHL or ECHL teams should look abroad, but as you pointed out with your success stories, signing international is not a slam dunk despite improved scouting abroad. Btw, Girgensons went through the us hockey system, he wasn't an international signing.
I meant they worked out because they currently play in the NHL. Of course they aren't high impact players, but NHL teams sign many players with very little upside under the 50 contract limit. So it shouldn't hurt signing a guy who is 23-25 years old and is playing well against men in Europe and at the WC. Under the 50 contract limit, Kenins and Bellemare are still top 25 players on their teams.
Dogewow
Such Profile
- Feb 1, 2015
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Ahh I thought we were talking in general and not lower ranked/under the radar prospects.
My guess, like someone else stated above, is that there aren't a lot of resources (scouts, money, time, contracts, etc) poured into countries like that. Not when there's legitimate talent coming out of junior leagues in other higher profile countries.
Deutschland Dangler
Registered User
- Jun 17, 2014
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There's pretty much no incentive whatsoever for e.g. a German player to go the ECHL. Pretty much every aspect of it is worse than playing in the DEL and the chance to make the NHL from there is slim to none.
In the AHL, conditions are obviously better and you're closer to the big leagues but if you're considered a project/long-shot, you might as well ride AHL buses for 5 years before getting a chance (if you get one at all) which also means making a big sacrifice compared to just playing at home.
In the AHL, conditions are obviously better and you're closer to the big leagues but if you're considered a project/long-shot, you might as well ride AHL buses for 5 years before getting a chance (if you get one at all) which also means making a big sacrifice compared to just playing at home.
Indrasis has been on a couple of NHL pre-season camps. He needs to improve his strength, add some bulk and improve his overall physicality, if he wants to ever play in the NHL. Roberts Bukarts is never going to play in the NHL, he's not good enough, but his younger brother should get a chance.
As for the question in the thread title - a major factor is the fact that players actually earn a very solid amount of money in the KHL and some of the top European leagues, so there is very little incentive to go to the AHL and receive peanuts in salary, if they already are established players in Europe or Russia.
So most of it comes down to the fact that there's a lot of talent that goes undrafted, and as far as scouting goes, there's definitely a negative bias towards players of smaller hockey countries and a positive bias towards areas with a large amount of NHL scouts.
You see some 3rd rate players being drafted in the later rounds from Canadian collegiate leagues with almost no chance of even becoming pros, while (domestically) established talents from countries such as Latvia just remain off the radar and go unnoticed in North America. They go on to become legit top 6 guys in the KHL or some other league (earning, say, $500,000 per year), and it becomes really hard to lure them to North America with a two-way contract once they're already 24 or 26 years old and have families of their own.
As for the question in the thread title - a major factor is the fact that players actually earn a very solid amount of money in the KHL and some of the top European leagues, so there is very little incentive to go to the AHL and receive peanuts in salary, if they already are established players in Europe or Russia.
So most of it comes down to the fact that there's a lot of talent that goes undrafted, and as far as scouting goes, there's definitely a negative bias towards players of smaller hockey countries and a positive bias towards areas with a large amount of NHL scouts.
You see some 3rd rate players being drafted in the later rounds from Canadian collegiate leagues with almost no chance of even becoming pros, while (domestically) established talents from countries such as Latvia just remain off the radar and go unnoticed in North America. They go on to become legit top 6 guys in the KHL or some other league (earning, say, $500,000 per year), and it becomes really hard to lure them to North America with a two-way contract once they're already 24 or 26 years old and have families of their own.
Indrasis is 6'3"/187 lbs, not the smallest guy. Some guys make the NHL despite lacking strenght, but if he went to NHL camps at least he got a look.
I agree about the drafting thing. Detroit was able to find late round steals 15-20 years ago because they focused more on scouting in Europe than other teams did. Any team being the first team to put more scouting resources into smaller nations could find new late round steals.
Mattias Norstebo was probably overlooked because of his size, but this kid looked incredibly poised on a bad team in the World Juniors a couple of years ago. Now he is on Norway's big team and has two goals in five games as a 19 year old. With proper AHL development maybe this guy had NHL potential.
Blaz Gregorc who I meantioned earlier, has great size, played in the SHL as a 19 year old, is currently 25 and playing in the Czech league. He has played three WC tournaments (in the top division) and in the Olympics. No interest from the NHL as far as I know.
Meanwhile NHL teams sign players like this under the 50 contract limit:
http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=88677
Sorry Tampa fans. I've never seen him play but I can't imagine there's much upside there. Just an example, there are many similar guys with NHL contracts.
Indrasis has good size, but he needs to work and add some muscle and improve his upper-body strength.
And as far as the draft goes, it's not even about late round gems, it's about drafting players who are better than the ones they are drafting in the 5th, 6th or 7th round. It's as simple as that, and it doesn't mean that they are all going to become career NHLers, it's just that there are a bunch of players with higher chances of making it at the pro level being left out, because the scouting/selection process is not efficient enough.
QnebO
Wheel, snipe, celly
- Feb 11, 2010
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The NHL teams probably have bias to take north american boys rather than Euro's if they are equally good, for example bottom 6 roles in NHL. Nothing surprising there, I think in Finnish League, own boys are also prefered over foreigners if they are equally good. Will you give that well paying (in relation to civil jobs) player spot in 4th line for boy from own town who has worked trough the junior system or some foreign bounty hunter? Foreign players are always waited to be real improvements to the team.
FYI, Andreas Martinsen will probably sign an NHL contract after the WC is over. He's down to Avs or Islanders.
Indrasis has NHL talent, could be a really good 3rd liner, but I get the sense that he prefers to stay in Riga.
And then you have Endras and Patrick Thoresen who both clearly have NHL talent IMO, but leave because NHL teams made mistakes in their development or treating of the player.
Definitely agree with this. There are a ton of smaller European hockey players who can play on the bottom 6 in the NHL or top 6 in the AHL, but would rather be star players in their countries or the KHL as an example than play in the NHL (and as Namejs mentioned, money is also a factor, you have better job security as a star than a bottom 6er).
Indrasis has NHL talent, could be a really good 3rd liner, but I get the sense that he prefers to stay in Riga.
And then you have Endras and Patrick Thoresen who both clearly have NHL talent IMO, but leave because NHL teams made mistakes in their development or treating of the player.
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This is true, but often they sign north americans who are worse. Using the Dan Milan vs Blaz Gregorc example again, why sign an undrafted guy who isn't productive in the QMJHL, over and equally big defenseman playing the SHL at a young age? First and foremost NHL teams should care about signing the best young players, no matter where they come from. It wouldn't hurt the NHL to get a wider audience in Europe either.
Diatomic
Mitch Matthewlander
Poor Scouting has to do with it. Why send scouts to Latvia, Germany or France when you can send scouts to Finland/Sweden/Switzerland etc.
Van Buren Boy
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- Aug 18, 2006
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He'll get cut? He just signed a 2 year contract and actually played better after signing the contract compared to earlier in the year. He's a solid 4th line center who plays an energy game and gets regular time on the PK. Defensively sound and only makes only 725k a year. He led all Flyers' forwards in blocked shots last year. He was 8th on the team in hits and only 2 other forwards had more hits than he did but those guys averaged 3 mins more ice-time than him. Even in the faceoff circle, 47% isn't that bad considering it was his first year in the league.
Yes but why not sign an undrafted Latvian, German or French guy, who is in his early 20's and playing well at the WC, instead of signing an undrafted north american out of the QMJHL, WHL or OHL? Why not sign Matthias Plachta over Curt Gogol?
Van Buren Boy
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- Aug 18, 2006
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Most of these guys play in Finland/Sweden/Switzerland/Russia and most were actually scouted at the WC
TheTwelfth
Registered User
Teams can cut players in mid contract...teams can fire coaches in mid contract. The speculation about getting cut comes mostly from French media. I don't know how reliable it is because as you said he's not a real salary cap burden. And yes for a while he was on the pk, but towards the end of the season he was averaging 7 minutes a game. Offensively he's not even where Ronalds Kenins is. He's as you said, a solid fourth line center who will be replaced once a first round hotshot Philly draft pick proves himself in the AHL. And AHLers don't make peanuts unless 6 digits is peanuts and then some more 5 digit peanuts for callups. The draft is ridiculous though and it's been a complaint of mine for a long time. I used to have this lost of the stupidest picks from a few draft years. Twenty year old centers scoring at a .3 clip get drafted sometimes but it's a north American league, so their priorities are north Americans just like with any other league.
http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/10/20/ahl-salaries-2012-13-opening-night-rosters
Players on ELCs are limited to a 70k salary in the AHL and that's the maximum salary, not the average salary. On average the players coming in from Europe probably earn about as much as the average working man in the US (around 50-60k a year).
Only about 6-8% of all the AHL players earn a 6 figure salary.
True but the top players can also make over 500,000, though generally between 250 and 550 thousand. And small countries are not exclusive to Latvia. Most small countries don't have access to the KHL with the same ease that latvia does having Dinamo riga drafting latvian longshots in the low rounds of the KHL draft. The average salaries in the SHL and SM-Liiga actually are fairly comparable to the AHL in spread. A Slovenian for example can chose to be an import and receive import salary in finland, or in the US, neither is particularly high paying or rosy.
Van Buren Boy
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- Aug 18, 2006
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I don't know where you are getting these numbers but like i said, he actually started playing better and got more accustomed to NA ice as the year progressed and his TOI actually reflected that. Back in December-January he was averaging anywhere from 7 mins a night to 12 mins a night. He actually averaged close to 15mins per game in the months of March-April. Coincidently, he signed his 2 year extension back in early March. He's not going anywhere.
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