Why do you think it took them so long to induct Rogie Vachon?

[Crosby2010]

With all of the Hall of Fame talk on different threads we often talk about who is in there that shouldn't be. And there has been some questionable choices over the last 20 years alone. But what do you think was the reason for keeping Vachon out as long as they did? He gets inducted in 2016, which is about 30 years after he is eligible.

As far as goalies in the era of Vachon you have Dryden, Parent, Cheevers, Esposito and Giacomin. All in the Hall of Fame, and deservingly I think. Vachon definitely belongs there.

You can say he won three Cups, and he did, but there is some context to it. In 1967 he is the starter in a losing cause in the Cup final. In 1968 he plays two playoff games but Gump Worsley plays the most in a Cup win. In 1969 he plays more games and is the starter including the latter games against Boston and all 4 games in the Cup final. In 1971 he plays 47 games for the Habs all year and is the clear starter but gets bounced for Dryden and doesn't play a playoff game. Also shares a Vezina with Worsley in 1968 (awarded to both for lowest GAA). So he's part of three teams that won the Cup despite being the starter just one of them in the playoffs.

But it gets better for him. Traded to the Kings after 1971, he has a good string of seasons, I would say from 1972-'78. Two 2nd team all-stars, Hart finishes of 2nd and 4th and a Canada Cup win in 1976 and played every minute of it as well despite having a Hall of Fame goalie on the roster as well.

Finishes his career with 353 wins. At the time of his retirement that was good for 5th all-time. Behind Sawchuk, Plante, Hall and Esposito. And it isn't as if 300 wins was common place. Worsley, Lumley and Broda were the only other 300 winners at that time behind him.

Here is my theory. Pat Quinn was coach of the Kings in the mid 1980s when Vachon was the Kings GM. Quinn was actually banned from coaching in 1987 in the NHL because he signed a backdoor deal with the Canucks to become their GM despite still being under contract with the Kings. I have no idea if Quinn felt Vachon played a part in this or how he felt. All I know is that Vachon was the GM at this time and probably didn't like the idea of his coach going behind his back. I assume this brought a lot of bad blood. Now, why does this matter? It is because Quinn for a long time was on the HHOF committee. From 1998 to 2014 he was part of the committee and was Chairman of the Board the last couple of years. He died in November of 2014. Vachon is inducted in 2016. 2015 was top heavy with Pronger, Lidstrom and Fedorov going in, although Housley sticks out in that class. But in 2016 he gets in, ironically Quinn got in as a builder that year too.

My theory is that Quinn may have been a vocal critic of Vachon and that tilted things to keeping him out. It doesn't explain why Vachon didn't get in from 1985 to 1997 when he was still eligible before Quinn joined the committee, but it could have been that his career was one where you appreciated it long after he retired. Vachon's wife Nicole died 4 months before it was announced he was getting into the HHOF. Might have been nice for his wife of 45 years to see it, but she didn't.

Why do you think they took so long to induct him?

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[JackSlater]

Montreal got rid of him and had a lot of success with Dryden, and his peak was in Los Angeles when no one was watching Los Angeles. I have no issue with Vachon but he's clearly a very marginal candidate. I think it's more of a mystery why they eventually did decide to induct him.

 

[MadLuke]

Really high hart (2-3) finish with the Kings too, he probably did get attentions, close to win it over Clarke-Orr:

1974-75 NHL Awards Voting | Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

 

[Crosby2010]

Montreal got rid of him and had a lot of success with Dryden, and his peak was in Los Angeles when no one was watching Los Angeles. I have no issue with Vachon but he's clearly a very marginal candidate. I think it's more of a mystery why they eventually did decide to induct him.

Could it be the Pat Quinn factor? They inducted him pretty much right after Quinn died. Does that mean there were those in the room that disagreed with Quinn but didn't show it until they felt comfortable? This isn't bizarre like something such as Dale Hawerchuk not getting in for his first year of eligibility in 2000 (when there was room for more players to get in) but then getting in the following year (in other words, what exactly made Hawerchuk - a shoo in - not good enough in 2000 but good enough in 2001?). But to me Vachon clearly checks off all of the boxes needed.

 

[Michael Farkas]

He wasn't anything special. He had "MVP goalie" stuff more than he had "elite goalie" stuff. He can keep you in games because he fights and dives around. But he wasn't a great goaltender, per se. Sort of the Roy Worters of the 70s. I think they waited a similar amount of time to get in...

 

[Crosby2010]

He wasn't anything special. He had "MVP goalie" stuff more than he had "elite goalie" stuff. He can keep you in games because he fights and dives around. But he wasn't a great goaltender, per se. Sort of the Roy Worters of the 70s. I think they waited a similar amount of time to get in...

They did wait a similar time. Worters had been dead for 12 years when he got in back in 1969. Worters had a regular season record too good to ignore. It isn't just his Hart trophy win, but several other years of elite play. Those were just bad teams he was on, they weren't winning the Cup with Superman in net. Vachon is similar there with the Kings. That was a sad sack of a franchise before Vachon showed up there. Didn't do a thing the first 5 years of their existence. One of the worst seasons in NHL history in 1970 for example. Vachon comes in and they start doing well. Still mediocre-ish, but they were just woeful before he got there. They cracked 105 points in 1975, and this was before Dionne showed up. Vachon was rightly so a huge part of this success. Honestly, he was a no-brainer and they didn't need 30 years to figure it out. There is no goalie with a better resume outside of the HHOF. He was the guy for a long time before he got in.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I mean, I understand...but your question is "why not sooner?"...I offered some scant advice.

 

[Crosby2010]

I mean, I understand...but your question is "why not sooner?"...I offered some scant advice.

Sometimes I wish we could be flies on the wall when the committee is talking to each other. I am almost certain that the players that the media didn't like because they weren't interesting (Oates) to the players that were clearly HHOFers but were intentionally forced to wait several years because of some off-ice stuff (Anderson, Gilmour). I am convinced they did this to Belfour. He was clearly a first ballot in 2010, but instead all they did was induct Dino and no one else. He gets in by 2011 but maybe his off-ice tussle with the security guard or his relationships with his back up played a role, because Belfour was as good of a HHOFer as any. So I wonder if any of this logic spilled over to Vachon for whatever reason. Or like you said they were never overly impressed with his resume.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Sometimes I wish we could be flies on the wall when the committee is talking to each other.

If it's anything like some of the other conversations I have heard or even been a part of, it's about a 3 out of 4 chance that you'll be underwhelmed.

I have never heard a HOF committee conversation before or anything categorically similar, I'll concede that. Maybe they're the best haha

 

[The Panther]

Yeah, maybe Quinn had something to do with it. And, as noted, playing in total obscurity in L.A . (in those days) didn't help.

There's also the fact that "Rogatien" is really hard for English speakers to pronounce.

 

[rmartin65]

One of the things I looked at during the top goalies project was HoF entry years in comparison to when their career ended. For the goalies who have been voted in by the project, I've used the career end year listed in the summary thread. For those who haven't been voted in by the project, I just used the last year listed on their Wikipedia page. For goalies who retired prior to the HoF inducting still-living members, I've used 1946 for when the "clock" started, since they weren't eligible before then. For Gardiner and Vezina, who had passed prior to the HoF and were thus inducted in 1945, I used 1945 as the "clock" start year. Everything was done in good faith; please point out any errors.

Name	Birth Year	HoF Year	Last Year	Wait Time
Rogie Vachon	1945	2016	1982	34
Hap Holmes	1888	1972	1928	26
Roy Worters	1900	1969	1937	23
Tom Barrasso	1965	2023	2002	21
Mike Vernon	1963	2023	2002	21
Chuck Rayner	1920	1973	1953	20
Clint Benedict	1892	1965	1930	19
Harry Lumley	1926	1980	1961	19
Bouse Hutton	1877	1963	1909	17
Riley Hern	1878	1963	1911	17
Frank Brimsek	1913	1966	1950	16
Turk Broda	1914	1967	1951	16
Percy LeSueur	1881	1961	1916	15
George Hainsworth	1893	1961	1936	15
Bill Durnan	1916	1964	1950	14
Tiny Thompson	1903	1959	1940	13
Paddy Moran	1877	1958	1917	12
Hugh Lehman	1885	1958	1927	12
Alec Connell	1902	1958	1937	12
Eddie Giacomin	1939	1987	1978	9
Johnny Bower	1924	1976	1969	7
Gump Worsley	1929	1980	1974	6
Bernie Parent	1945	1984	1979	5
Gerry Cheevers	1940	1985	1980	5
Vladislav Tretiak	1952	1989	1984	5
Glenn Hall	1931	1975	1971	4
Ken Dryden	1947	1983	1979	4
Tony Esposito	1943	1988	1984	4
Billy Smith	1950	1993	1989	4
Jacques Plante	1929	1978	1975	3
Grant Fuhr	1962	2003	2000	3
Patrick Roy	1965	2006	2003	3
Ed Belfour	1965	2011	2008	3
Dominik Hasek	1965	2014	2011	3
Martin Brodeur	1972	2018	2015	3
Roberto Luongo	1979	2022	2019	3
Henrik Lundqvist	1982	2023	2020	3
Terry Sawchuk	1929	1971	1970	1
Georges Vezina	1887	1945	1926	0
Charlie Gardiner	1904	1945	1934	0

Vachon really is in a class of his own in terms of how long he had to wait, and I think this table provides a pretty simple explanation- Vachon was simply not one for the very best guys of his age cohort. Vachon was the 6th goalie born in the 1940-1950 bracket to be inducted, behind Gerry Cheevers, Tony Esposito, Bernie Parent, Ken Dryden, and Billy Smith. Outside of Gerry Cheevers (who, somehow, only waited 5 years before being admitted), all those guys are pretty easily ahead of Vachon, right? I don't think the HoF was exactly tripping over itself to admit the 5th or 6th best goalie of his age bracket, and that's ignoring guys who fall just outside that group (like Eddie Giacomin, a 1939 birth, and Vladislav Tretiak, a 1952 birth).

Honestly, the big surprise to me isn't that he waited that long, it is that he got in at all. Of the guys in and around those birth years (I'll include Giacomin and Tretiak), these guys were all inducted relatively shortly after their career ended, with the exception of Vachon- Giacomin waited 9 years, Cheevers 5, Esposito 4, Parent 5, Dryden 4, Smith 4, and Tretiak 5. It certainly "feels" like those who saw him (and to a lesser extent, Giacomin) didn't think he was worth putting in the Hall.

Of course there are several reasons why this shouldn't be looked at as the only data point, not least of which being that it assumes the HoF is largely accurate in who it decides to induct. It is simply meant as a quick reference.

 

[Crosby2010]

Vachon really is in a class of his own in terms of how long he had to wait, and I think this table provides a pretty simple explanation- Vachon was simply not one for the very best guys of his age cohort. Vachon was the 6th goalie born in the 1940-1950 bracket to be inducted, behind Gerry Cheevers, Tony Esposito, Bernie Parent, Ken Dryden, and Billy Smith. Outside of Gerry Cheevers (who, somehow, only waited 5 years before being admitted), all those guys are pretty easily ahead of Vachon, right? I don't think the HoF was exactly tripping over itself to admit the 5th or 6th best goalie of his age bracket, and that's ignoring guys who fall just outside that group (like Eddie Giacomin, a 1939 birth, and Vladislav Tretiak, a 1952 birth).

Honestly, the big surprise to me isn't that he waited that long, it is that he got in at all. Of the guys in and around those birth years (I'll include Giacomo and Tretiak), these guys were all inducted relatively shortly after their career ended, with the exception of Vachon- Giacomo waited 9 years, Cheevers 5, Esposito 4, Parent 5, Dryden 4, Smith 4, and Tretiak 5. It certainly "feels" like those who saw him (and to a lesser extent, Giacomo) didn't think he was worth putting in the Hall.

Of course there are several reasons why this shouldn't be looked at as the only data point, not least of which being that it assumes the HoF is largely accurate in who it decides to induct. It is simply meant as a quick reference.

Dryden, Esposito, Parent, Giacomin, Cheevers and Smith are better than Vachon. But in reality is he really all different from Cheevers? In 1976 when you had both goalies available it was Cheevers sitting on the bench and Vachon playing every minute in the Canada Cup. In 1979 with the Challenge Cup it was Dryden, Esposito and Cheevers as the goalies, with Cheevers playing in the 3rd disastrous game, while Vachon wasn't on the team. So I guess there's that as well. Giacomin got in 6 years after he was eligible (9 in total). So I wonder what took them so long with that too. He's the best goalie in the NHL for a good half decade. Maybe it is the success of championships with goalies in the 1970s that had them overlook Giacomin. I don't know. Vachon has his Cups, but maybe Dryden taking over for him and not missing a beat hurt him. They sure made him wait though didn't they?

 

[rmartin65]

Dryden, Esposito, Parent, Giacomin, Cheevers and Smith are better than Vachon. But in reality is he really all different from Cheevers? In 1976 when you had both goalies available it was Cheevers sitting on the bench and Vachon playing every minute in the Canada Cup. In 1979 with the Challenge Cup it was Dryden, Esposito and Cheevers as the goalies, with Cheevers playing in the 3rd disastrous game, while Vachon wasn't on the team. So I guess there's that as well. Giacomin got in 6 years after he was eligible (9 in total). So I wonder what took them so long with that too. He's the best goalie in the NHL for a good half decade. Maybe it is the success of championships with goalies in the 1970s that had them overlook Giacomin. I don't know. Vachon has his Cups, but maybe Dryden taking over for him and not missing a beat hurt him. They sure made him wait though didn't they?

I think it comes down to the whole idea that if everybody is special, nobody is special. How many guys at the same position from the same general range of births does the Hall really need to induct? There has to be a line somewhere, and it feels like those who saw Vachon and his contemporaries play thought that a good line was Vachon.

As for Giacomin being "overlooked"... maybe? I don't know, it looks like he was the 3rd one inducted from his age group to make it in, that's not bad. If I had to guess it is probably a couple of things; 1) it looks like most of his praise happened early in his career; perhaps the voters had forgotten or minimized his earlier success, 2) lack of championships, 3) it really wasn't that long of a wait, and there were some really strong (non-goalie) candidates eligible for a while.

 

[Crosby2010]

I think it comes down to the whole idea that if everybody is special, nobody is special. How many guys at the same position from the same general range of births does the Hall really need to induct? There has to be a line somewhere, and it feels like those who saw Vachon and his contemporaries play thought that a good line was Vachon.

As for Giacomin being "overlooked"... maybe? I don't know, it looks like he was the 3rd one inducted from his age group to make it in, that's not bad. If I had to guess it is probably a couple of things; 1) it looks like most of his praise happened early in his career; perhaps the voters had forgotten or minimized his earlier success, 2) lack of championships, 3) it really wasn't that long of a wait, and there were some really strong (non-goalie) candidates eligible for a while.

I agree, I am not the type that thinks every deserves a trophy. Not everyone is a deserving winner. Vachon retired at 5th in wins. And this wasn't a career where he hung around too long or padded his stats. I wouldn't call him a compiler by any stretch of the imagination. Anyway, there does have to be that cut off, but I don't think it is Vachon. I'd say someone above Dan Bouchard from that era. My guess would be Chico Resch. Resch is definitely below the threshold.