Why did the Rangers Trade Zubov?

[GMR]

The NYR traded a talented 25 year old defenseman to a division rival. You don't see that often.

To sum up, the Rangers sent Zubov (25) and Nedved (24) for Samuelsson (31) and Robitaille (29). Just looking at their ages, without knowing anything about either player's past or future, it looks like a strange trade.

In 1994 and 1995 (combining regular season and playoffs), Zubov scored 144 points in 138 games. So lack of productivity couldn't have been the reason.

The Rangers defense in 1996 consisted of the following:

Leetch - 82GP
Beukeboom - 82 GP
Samuelsson - 74 GP
Driver - 66 GP
Lidster - 59 GP
Lowe - 53 GP
Karpovtsev - 40 GP
Norstrom - 25 GP
McSorley - 9 GP
Richter (Barry) - 4 GP

This is largely the same defense from 1994, except you're swapping out Zubov for Samuelsson. They're two different players, but the team already had grit with Beukeboom, Kocur, Langdon, Kypreos, Messier, Verbeek. If Zubov's defensive play was the concern, that roster had no shortage of defensive defensemen.


Of course, the following season, Zubov scored 66 games in 64 games with Pittsburgh. Nedved scored 99 points that year. I started a similar thread last year about why Pittsburgh traded Zubov. I was told that he and Mario didn't get along (despite having the best PP in the league).

However, what was the rationale for him being traded by New York? How did Rangers fans feel about this trade when it first happened?

How much better would Zubov make the Rangers in the late 1990's and early 2000's, when coupled with the other talent they acquired around that time?

How did Neil Smith stay employed after making this trade?

 

[GMR]

I forgot the question mark at the end of the thread title, so maybe the mods can add that?

 

[Brodeur]

Article from the moment: HOCKEY; Rangers Trade Zubov and Nedved

In a continued and perhaps desperate quest for another Stanley Cup championship before the end of the Mark Messier era, the Rangers made a major multiplayer trade yesterday. They filled two of their biggest present needs while gambling with their future and increasing their payroll.

Seemed like people knew at the time it was a risky deal. Robitaille was only a couple years removed from setting the record for most goals by a left wing and had been on a 40 goal pace during the shortened 1994-95 season. The Rangers probably thought they were getting 40-50 goal Luc rather than the 20 goal version.

Last season, when the Rangers slumped from championship status to mediocrity, Campbell was harshly critical of both Nedved and Zubov.

Nedved, a 23-year-old center who scored 11 goals in 46 games, didn't show enough aggression on the attack, Campbell often said, and he criticized him for not forcing his presence in front of the opposing net.

Zubov, a 25-year-old defenseman who totaled 36 points in 38 games, was frequently faulted for poor positional play and risky decisions.

Both Campbell and Smith opposed Zubov's insistence on having wrist surgery early in the season. Later, at the trade deadline, the Rangers discussed trading Zubov to the Quebec Nordiques.

In a separate thread on Zubov, one poster credited Ken Hitchcock/Dallas with fixing Zubov's defensive play. Zubov's early career was a little before my time as a fan, so I can't recall how bad he might have been defensively.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Later, at the trade deadline, the Rangers discussed trading Zubov to the Quebec Nordiques.

now that is a what if, because i'm guessing the avs could have gotten him for cheaper than owen nolan.

 

[GMR]

Article from the moment: HOCKEY; Rangers Trade Zubov and Nedved



Seemed like people knew at the time it was a risky deal. Robitaille was only a couple years removed from setting the record for most goals by a left wing and had been on a 40 goal pace during the shortened 1994-95 season. The Rangers probably thought they were getting 40-50 goal Luc rather than the 20 goal version.



In a separate thread on Zubov, one poster credited Ken Hitchcock/Dallas with fixing Zubov's defensive play. Zubov's early career was a little before my time as a fan, so I can't recall how bad he might have been defensively.

Poor positional play can be coached. Talent can't. As I mentioned in my OP, outside of Leetch, their defense was full of slow guys who were defensive defensemen. God forbid they put some creativity back there.

I'm guessing it had more to do with Robitaille and the Rangers wanting one more Cup before blowing it up. They probably thought he was a missing piece offensively (or something of that nature).

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Neil Smith was roundly criticized for making one desperate move after another, year after year, trying to catch the magic of the 1994 Cup again. 1994 Rangers traded young talent for gritty older guys and it worked... and they just kept trying it again and again.

To answer a question earlier in the thread: NYR era Zubov was atrocious in his own end, about as bad as you could picture a regular NHL defenseman. I guess part of the rationale was that they had Brian Leetch to provide offense, and Leetch was less of a liability than Zubov, so Zubov was expendable.

 

[Big Phil]

The post-1994 Rangers were a dumpster fire to be honest. When you hear the term "mortgaged their future" none is more true than the Rangers in 1994. They gambled and won. They won the Cup of course, so it was worth it, but they paid for it dearly afterwards.

 

[mrhockey193195]

Neil Smith was rounded criticized for making one desperate move after another, year after year, trying to catch the magic of the 1994 Cup again. 1994 Rangers traded young talent for gritty older guys and it worked... and they just kept trying it again and again.

To answer a question earlier in the thread: NYR era Zubov was atrocious in his own end, about as bad as you could picture a regular NHL defenseman. I guess part of the rationale was that they had Brian Leetch to provide offense, and Leetch was less of a liability than Zubov, so Zubov was expendable.

Exactly. This is why I have a tough time when I see posters extend the mature, 30+ year old version of Zubov to his whole career. (Ditto for Niedermayer, who also has a thread at the top of the HOH board right now).

 

[GMR]

Exactly. This is why I have a tough time when I see posters extend the mature, 30+ year old version of Zubov to his whole career. (Ditto for Niedermayer, who also has a thread at the top of the HOH board right now).

The guy was a scoring machine for them. Yes they had Leetch, but their other defensemen couldn't hit water from a boat if they were shooting. It's easier to acquire defensive minded players in free agency than a point per game scorer.

Also, you can coach a player to improve in his own zone. That happened with Zubov in Dallas.

Trading a 25 year old with his skills to a division rival that needed offensive help on the blueline was dumb.

 

[sonic92]

Pittsburgh trading Zubov for Kevin Hatcher I think is an even more stranger trade.

 

[GMR]

Pittsburgh trading Zubov for Kevin Hatcher I think is an even more stranger trade.

Yeah, the Penguins could have capitalized on New York's foolishness. Instead, they one-upped them with stupidity of their own. They also traded Naslund for Stojanov in 1996.

Ironically enough, New York and Pittsburgh were also involved when Nedved was swapped back to the Rangers for Kovalev.

 

[K Fleur]

Zubov for Hatcher is one of Mario’s worst overreaches of influence. Kevin Hatcher was a big slow dummy.

 

[Speedtrials]

Neil Smith recently did a podcast with Larry Brooks of the nypost. He spoke about how Zubov basically admitted to the org, that he was legitimately scared when he had to play Lindros and the Flyers. Smith has spoken a couple times how the defensemen he really regrets trading away was Norstrom.

 

[mrhockey193195]

The guy was a scoring machine for them. Yes they had Leetch, but their other defensemen couldn't hit water from a boat if they were shooting. It's easier to acquire defensive minded players in free agency than a point per game scorer.

Also, you can coach a player to improve in his own zone. That happened with Zubov in Dallas.

Trading a 25 year old with his skills to a division rival that needed offensive help on the blueline was dumb.

Oh, totally agree. No arguments here. I just think it's fair to say that Zubov was NOT a Hall of Fame caliber defenseman until the latter half of his career, and pretending he was one in the first half of his career makes this (admittedly) bad trade look worse than it was.

 

[Boxscore]

now that is a what if, because i'm guessing the avs could have gotten him for cheaper than owen nolan.

Yes, very interesting indeed. You wonder if the Nordiques would have been able to get Zubov for a Scott Young or Val Kamensky without surrendering Nolan. I mean, don't get me wrong--the Avs won their Cups--but I always thought it would have been amazing to see a loaded team with Sakic, Sundin, Forsberg, Nolan, Ricci, etc. Zubov would have been great with Quebec IMO.

 

[Sanf]

Yes, very interesting indeed. You wonder if the Nordiques would have been able to get Zubov for a Scott Young or Val Kamensky without surrendering Nolan. I mean, don't get me wrong--the Avs won their Cups--but I always thought it would have been amazing to see a loaded team with Sakic, Sundin, Forsberg, Nolan, Ricci, etc. Zubov would have been great with Quebec IMO.

Well i dont know. Rangers were after big fish to fix their problem. Bad move in retrospect and maybe bit riskyarisky the time. But Scott Young never was anything special. Rangers made bad moves, but I can't see that.

 

[Buffalowing1988]

The post-1994 Rangers were a dumpster fire to be honest. When you hear the term "mortgaged their future" none is more true than the Rangers in 1994. They gambled and won. They won the Cup of course, so it was worth it, but they paid for it dearly afterwards.

That seems a bit harsh. They were a contender in the East for three straight seasons after they won the cup. They definitely traded away a lot of future good players, but they made the most of some of those trades.

 

[CharlestownChiefsESC]

Agreed with everything up top. The trade address 2 things size and depth. The Flyers had pushed the Rangers around in 95 and Neil Smith ( like everyone else) thought they were hockey's new bench mark. The problems with Zubov and Nedved above were definitely a real thing in 95, but one other thing to consider here is the forward depth too. Neil Smith knew Steve Larmer was retiring and after the first line (Graves-Messier-Verbeek) the team was thin as Nedved didn't live up to his hype(Messier hated him too) and Kovalev( whom everyone thought would be a Fedorov caliber star) didnt expand on his 94 season. These 2 thing s above addressed 2 glaring needs as Robitille would be that 2nd line scoring punch they needed and Samuelsson would give them the toughness. The problem with this deal is Robitille looked lost in NY, and they could have done better. At the time Winnipeg knew they would have to dump either Keith Tkachuk or Teemu Selanne. Problem was Selanne had flipped a car in Finland and was considered damaged goods, and Tkachuk wasn't the power forward he would become yet so Robitille was the safer bet.

 

[jcs0218]

Neil Smith was rounded criticized for making one desperate move after another, year after year, trying to catch the magic of the 1994 Cup again. 1994 Rangers traded young talent for gritty older guys and it worked... and they just kept trying it again and again.

To answer a question earlier in the thread: NYR era Zubov was atrocious in his own end, about as bad as you could picture a regular NHL defenseman. I guess part of the rationale was that they had Brian Leetch to provide offense, and Leetch was less of a liability than Zubov, so Zubov was expendable.

The moves didn't work out as hoped for. But you have to have some respect for a GM who is willing to take risks in order to win a Stanley Cup.

In a city like New York, a lot of hardcore fans and casual people have a "championship or bust" mentality. If you aren't winning a championship, 90% of the city will just go find some other sport or form of entertainment, because there are unlimited options. Only championships get your team on the front page of the news. This is why the Yankees and Knicks have always had a "win now, think about the consequences later" type of team building strategy. (Although the Knicks have been completely woeful in this strategy the last 2 decades).

As for the Rangers? They knew Messier was nearing the end of the road as an impact player. They had several other aging players on their team.

The strategy worked in 1994, so you can see why they would have tried it again.

Unfortunately for them, teams like the 1996 Penguins were stronger with the return of Lemieux, and then a year later the Legion of Doom in 1997 eliminated them.

 

[jcs0218]

Pittsburgh trading Zubov for Kevin Hatcher I think is an even more stranger trade.

Yeah, the Penguins could have capitalized on New York's foolishness. Instead, they one-upped them with stupidity of their own. They also traded Naslund for Stojanov in 1996.

Ironically enough, New York and Pittsburgh were also involved when Nedved was swapped back to the Rangers for Kovalev.

Zubov for Hatcher is one of Mario’s worst overreaches of influence. Kevin Hatcher was a big slow dummy.

In hindsight, Zubov for Hatcher was obviously a very bad deal.

It was influenced by a couple of factors though.

The mid-1990s Flyers were seen as a dynasty in the making. The Legion of Doom were three massive players with the ability to score, and teams felt they needed to load up on size and defensive awareness to compete against this team. Hatcher was viewed as a better solution than Zubov.

Also, the 1995 Devils had signalled the beginning of a much more defensively-oriented and offensively-restricted game. After seeing the Devils easily shut-down Paul Coffey in the 1995 Stanley Cup Finals, it was thought that players like Zubov weren't the direction a team should be going in.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Poor positional play can be coached. Talent can't. As I mentioned in my OP, outside of Leetch, their defense was full of slow guys who were defensive defensemen. God forbid they put some creativity back there.

I'm guessing it had more to do with Robitaille and the Rangers wanting one more Cup before blowing it up. They probably thought he was a missing piece offensively (or something of that nature).

To an extent, maybe. But a lot of positioning comes down to hockey IQ and reading the play on the fly. Zubey was always a high IQ Hockey player. Not surprised he blossomed under KH who preached and deployed a more defensive minded system with commitment from all 5 skaters.

Terrible trade for the Rangers.

 

[Brodeur]

Yes, very interesting indeed. You wonder if the Nordiques would have been able to get Zubov for a Scott Young or Val Kamensky without surrendering Nolan. I mean, don't get me wrong--the Avs won their Cups--but I always thought it would have been amazing to see a loaded team with Sakic, Sundin, Forsberg, Nolan, Ricci, etc. Zubov would have been great with Quebec IMO.

HOCKEY; Rangers Allege That Nordiques Tampered With Zubov

Pierre Lacroix, general manager of the Quebec Nordiques, has denied that he tampered with Sergei Zubov of the Rangers by asking Zubov's agent if Zubov would accept a trade to the Nordiques.
"I never did anything like that," Lacroix said from Ottawa, where the Nordiques played the Senators last night.

But Neil Smith, president and general manager of the Rangers, said yesterday that he has filed tampering charges with the National Hockey League. "It's best served if it goes through the league," Smith said. "I'm not going to comment publicly.

Lacroix said he talked to the agent, Jay Grossman of New York, about another player, Mika Stromberg. The conversation was about Stromberg's option to sign with the Nordiques or to play for the national team of Finland in this spring's world championships, Lacroix said.

Lacroix said neither the Rangers nor the league had contacted him about the tampering allegation. A first-year general manager, Lacroix is a former player agent. He confirmed that he negotiated with Smith, his Ranger counterpart, regarding trades of several players. Although back-channel contacts between executives and player agents aren't formally sanctioned during trade negotiations, they are commonplace.

"It's common for it to happen," Smith said, "but it's uncommon and very bad to get caught." It is also uncommon for a team to bring tampering charges. If found guilty, the Nordiques could be fined or penalized by the loss of draft choices.

Grossman couldn't be reached yesterday. He was on the way to Germany for the European junior championships. Smith said he talked to Grossman before he left and then called Brian Burke, the N.H.L.'s senior vice president and director of hockey operations. "Burke said it would be officially investigated," Smith said. Calls to Burke weren't returned.

It is believed that the Rangers were interested in obtaining Mike Ricci, a Nordiques center, in a deal that involved Zubov. But talks broke off and no deal was made before the trading deadline of 3 P.M. Friday.

At least according to that article, it was rumored that the Rangers had interest in Mike Ricci.

 

[Michael Farkas]

The Nordiques and Rangers certainly have a very weird history...Zubov tampering, there was another tampering incident that led to them trading a coach for a 1st or something, the Lindros arbitration...

 

[Kamaya Painters]

Neil Smith recently did a podcast with Larry Brooks of the nypost. He spoke about how Zubov basically admitted to the org, that he was legitimately scared when he had to play Lindros and the Flyers. Smith has spoken a couple times how the defensemen he really regrets trading away was Norstrom.

Smith didn't even bother to call Norström to tell him he'd been traded to LA. It was actually Larry Pleau (assistant GM) who delivered the news while Norström was having a dinner with his wife and Niklas Sundström.

 

[FerrisRox]

The Nordiques and Rangers certainly have a very weird history...Zubov tampering, there was another tampering incident that led to them trading a coach for a 1st or something, the Lindros arbitration...

The Nordiques traded their coach, Michel Bergeron, to the New York Rangers for the first round draft pick Quebec used to select Joe Sakic.

Solid trade.