Why did Gretzky win the Hart in 1989 with 31 fewer goals/points than Lemieux?

[LGP8771]

Thread title says it all...

I was going through all the Hart winners on Wikipedia and remembered how Mario was robbed of the 1989 Hart Memorial Trophy as league MVP.

Lemieux didn't have the supporting cast of the Cup teams yet. And sure, Gretzky was now playing for the Kings.

But both teams made the playoffs! The only thing that could make for a good argument for Gretzky beating Mario out for the Hart was if the Pens had not made the playoffs. Didn't happen.

LOL... And Yzerman won the Lester B. Pearson, with 44 fewer points than Lemieux. He must have backchecked and won faceoffs like there was no tomorrow that whole season.

Scoring leaders
Mario Lemieux - 76 GP, 85 G, 114 A, 199 Points
Wayne Gretzky - 78 GP, 54 G, 114 A, 168 Points
Steve Yzerman - 80 GP, 65 G, 90 A, 155 Points

I'm guessing 8 more goals or one more point would have gotten Mario recognized for his tremendous season, right?

Honestly W*T*F* did Mario do to be hated this much?

Ridiculous...

Click to read more...

 

[VanIslander]

how to lie with statistics

the day the Hart is handed out to the player with the most points is the day it no longer represents the idea of being about which player was the MVP to his team's success

Gretzky, in his first season in L.A., simply was more valuable to the Kings season than Lemieux in his fifth season in Pittsburgh did

'nuf said

Yzerman won the Lester B. as a young captain leading his team to the divisional title. You want to second guess the voting of the NHL players? I personally hold the Pearson in higher regard than the Hart. Mario has 4 Pearsons. Well deserved. Yzerman has only one and no Harts surprising enough.

 

[slade]

how to lie with statistics

the day the Hart is handed out to the player with the most points is the day it no longer represents the idea of being about which player was the MVP to his team's success

Gretzky, in his first season in L.A., simply was more valuable to the Kings season than Lemieux in his fifth season in Pittsburgh did

'nuf said

thats about as great as a response as youll get.

 

[LGP8771]

how to lie with statistics

the day the Hart is handed out to the player with the most points is the day it no longer represents the idea of being about which player was the MVP to his team's success

Gretzky, in his first season in L.A., simply was more valuable to the Kings season than Lemieux in his fifth season in Pittsburgh did

'nuf said

Yzerman won the Lester B. as a young captain leading his team to the divisional title. You want to second guess the voting of the NHL players? I personally hold the Pearson in higher regard than the Hart. Mario has 4 Pearsons. Well deserved. Yzerman has only one and no Harts surprising enough.

The fact that it was Gretzky's first season with the Kings and Mario's fifth season with the Penguins has absolutely nothing to do with voting. At least, it shouldn't.

You have to compare each player's season and look at how valuable they were. You make absolutely no arguments as to why Gretzky was more valuable.

Here's another stat. Lemieux either scored or assisted on 57.3% of the Penguins' 347 goals. Gretzky figured in on 44.7% of the Kings' goals. That, to me, is even more telling of how valuable Mario was to the Pens' that season. He should have been the MVP.

Lemieux was +41, Gretzky +15.

Sorry but all of this points to high way robbery. Playing with a new team and doing well with that new team shouldn't give you an advantage in MVP voting.

And I didn't start this thread to bad mouth Gretz or Stevie Y... Honestly I think it's an injustice that Mario wasn't recognized as he should have been.

And yeah, I'm a Penguins fan. But it probably takes a Pens fan to recognize this. When looking at stats and going through Mario's career, I see so many years where he probably would have won the Art Ross, and most likely the Hart, but because of all his health problems, Gretzky ended up winning it instead.

This was one year where it wasn't the cancer or the back problems. He got robbed.

 

[Hank19]

Gretzky took the biggest joke of the NHL and made them a contender. At the same time he propelled some players on that team to new heights that they've never achieved. Look at Bernie Nichols. The guy was a very good player but 150 points? That's all Gretzky.

And Yzerman, that guy had nobody to play with that year. He basically scored 155 points with very little help.

Mario had a tremendous year too and I wouldn't have been upset if he had won the Hart trophy, but I think a lot of the writers, and the NHLPA themselves looked at factors described above and by what VanIslander suggested.

You could make the argument that Mario had a lot better support in all fashions than both Gretz and Stevie had that year.

 

[Jacob]

"What a stupid comment." - Bill Clement

 

[LGP8771]

Gretzky took the biggest joke of the NHL and made them a contender. At the same time he propelled some players on that team to new heights that they've never achieved. Look at Bernie Nichols. The guy was a very good player but 150 points? That's all Gretzky.

And Yzerman, that guy had nobody to play with that year. He basically scored 155 points with very little help.

Mario had a tremendous year too and I wouldn't have been upset if he had won the Hart trophy, but I think a lot of the writers, and the NHLPA themselves looked at factors described above and by what VanIslander suggested.

You could make the argument that Mario had a lot better support in all fashions than both Gretz and Stevie had that year.

Well, make the argument - that's why I created this thread.

And fair enough, you bring up Bernie Nichols - I'll bring up Robbie Brown, who was just 21 that year. In 68 games, he scored 49 goals and 115 points, both career highs. You better believe Lemieux elevated his play, no question about that.

I also brought this up because in the past, I've seen other Pens fans talk about it.

As for Yzerman, yeah, there's no doubt he was on fire that season. I'm looking at the Red Wings' stats from that season, and yeah, he had no one.

But it just shocks me that a guy with 199 points would not win the MVP, and there's no way you can't think that Lemieux got snubbed because Gretzky was the league's poster boy and got a lot more publicity that season because he was traded (and the whole hockey in LA thing).

 

[pappyline]

how to lie with statistics

the day the Hart is handed out to the player with the most points is the day it no longer represents the idea of being about which player was the MVP to his team's success

Gretzky, in his first season in L.A., simply was more valuable to the Kings season than Lemieux in his fifth season in Pittsburgh did

'nuf said

Yzerman won the Lester B. as a young captain leading his team to the divisional title. You want to second guess the voting of the NHL players? I personally hold the Pearson in higher regard than the Hart. Mario has 4 Pearsons. Well deserved. Yzerman has only one and no Harts surprising enough.

Good reply except for the fact that for the previous 8 years the Hart went to the guy with the most points & guess what? For 7 of those 8 years the AR winner was a guy named Gretzy. It seems unreasonable that Gretzy was really most valuable to his team for every one of those years. Then in 89 they decide to go back to the real meaning of the Hart & give it to someone besides the leading score. Lo & behold it was a guy named Gretzy.

 

[LGP8771]

Good reply except for the fact that for the previous 8 years the Hart went to the guy with the most points & guess what? For 7 of those 8 years the AR winner was a guy named Gretzy. It seems unreasonable that Gretzy was really most valuable to his team for every one of those years. Then in 89 they decide to go back to the real meaning of the Hart & give it to someone besides the leading score. Lo & behold it was a guy named Gretzy.

Exactly.

All of a sudden the leading scorer, someone who won by 31 points and was one point shy of the 200 mark, was snubbed for the Great One from LA!

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

how to lie with statistics

the day the Hart is handed out to the player with the most points is the day it no longer represents the idea of being about which player was the MVP to his team's success

Gretzky, in his first season in L.A., simply was more valuable to the Kings season than Lemieux in his fifth season in Pittsburgh did

'nuf said

Yzerman won the Lester B. as a young captain leading his team to the divisional title. You want to second guess the voting of the NHL players? I personally hold the Pearson in higher regard than the Hart. Mario has 4 Pearsons. Well deserved. Yzerman has only one and no Harts surprising enough.

That would've been fine if they were close in production. However, 31 points is a HUGE difference. Being in on 57% of the pens goals is also an nhl record. Mario was robbed. Gretzky in LA was too good of a story, and the media didn't really like Mario anyway.

 

[boredmale]

I am taking a guess since it was Gretzky's first year in LA and it was the feel good story of the year. My guess is if Lemieux got 1 extra point to give him 200 he would have won, being only the second player to get 200 points, but 199 doesn't seem as impressive.

 

[cgb]

Good reply except for the fact that for the previous 8 years the Hart went to the guy with the most points & guess what? For 7 of those 8 years the AR winner was a guy named Gretzy. It seems unreasonable that Gretzy was really most valuable to his team for every one of those years. Then in 89 they decide to go back to the real meaning of the Hart & give it to someone besides the leading score. Lo & behold it was a guy named Gretzy.

Yeah, but when Gretzky was winning all the Art Ross and Harts together who else was was worthy of the Hart? Gretzky was outright dominating the league, breaking record after record, winning scoring titles by 70-80 points and winning them on assists alone. You can't ignore that.

Even though he had a great season in 88/89 Lemieux did none of those things. One more point or five more goals and Lemieux probably gets it.

I actually think it's one of the few years they went by the actual definition of the award, but also wouldn't have been shocked to see Mario get it.

To say Gretzky robbed him is not right.

 

[MS]

As I said in the 'Least-deserved Harts' thread, the voters sort of moved the goalposts that year, and gave it to the player who was most valuable to the league, and who was most valuable to his team off the ice. Gretzky's season that year was one of the most influential in growing the game in the US, and he completely revitalized a sad-sack franchise.

But, had the voting been done in the way it was every other year, Lemieux would have won in a landslide. He was clearly the best player in the league that year, and should probably have been considered the most valuable.

 

[Uncle Jorgi]

Yeah, but when Gretzky was winning all the Art Ross and Harts together who else was was worthy of the Hart? Gretzky was outright dominating the league, breaking record after record, winning scoring titles by 70-80 points and winning them on assists alone. You can't ignore that.

Even though he had a great season in 88/89 Lemieux did none of those things. One more point or five more goals and Lemieux probably gets it.

I actually think it's one of the few years they went by the actual definition of the award, but also wouldn't have been shocked to see Mario get it.

To say Gretzky robbed him is not right.

I respect your opinion but these comments seems to contradict themselves in a way. Lemieux won the scoring championship by 31 points, but he wasn't robbed, obviously because Gretzky deserved MVP more in your opinion. Yet if he had gotten a single measly point more, bringing him not to a record but a superficial scoring threshold, suddenly Lemieux deserves the MVP? So, in essence, what you're saying is, just because the next point would've been his 200th, it carries more determining weight in the equation of who was the most valuable to his team than the other 31 greater points he had than Gretz? That doesn't make sense to me.

 

[#66]

If Gretzky would have led Lemieux by 31 points, would he have lost the Hart?
No way in hell. The NHL is media driven and media run and its been that way for far to long.

Thats about as close as the two had to having equal teams and Lemieux simply out pointed him. It not like Gretzky has all of these intangibles to his game like Yzerman did. It was siad best in another thread, Gretzky was MV to the NHL that year and was rewarded for it.

 

[cgb]

I respect your opinion but these comments seems to contradict themselves in a way. Lemieux won the scoring championship by 31 points, but he wasn't robbed, obviously because Gretzky deserved MVP more in your opinion. Yet if he had gotten a single measly point more, bringing him not to a record but a superficial scoring threshold, suddenly Lemieux deserves the MVP? So, in essence, what you're saying is, just because the next point would've been his 200th, it carries more determining weight in the equation of who was the most valuable to his team than the other 31 greater points he had than Gretz? That doesn't make sense to me.

I don't think the two commetns contradict themselves, but i admit there is something off about them.
In my mind, and I think in most, there's just someting that makes 200 seem much more impressive than 199. I realize how stupid that sounds, but I liken it to the idea that a product is not $10, it's $9.99. There's just something about it that makes a difference in the human psyche.
200 would have been something voters couldn't ignore and therefore I think Lemieux would have got it. Once they were able to ignore 199 then they looked at actual value to the team and came to Gretzky.

My 2 cents

 

[Crosbyfan]

Most Valuable Player to the NHL

They simply took it too literally that year. The fact that he turned his new team around would be relevant if the Gretzky trade was a player trade, but it was a money trade. LA bought the difference.

MVP should have been Lemieux, clearly, followed by Yzerman and Gretzky.

No question the league owed Gretzky something, he had an awesome season on and off the ice, but I don't think it should have been at Mario's expense.

 

[Danglefish]

Most Valuable Player to the NHL

They simply took it too literally that year. The fact that he turned his new team around would be relevant if the Gretzky trade was a player trade, but it was a money trade. LA bought the difference.

MVP should have been Lemieux, clearly, followed by Yzerman and Gretzky.

No question the league owed Gretzky something, he had an awesome season on and off the ice, but I don't think it should have been at Mario's expense.

So any other player except Lemieux and it would have been fine? I'm guessing this is where the Penguin bias comes into effect. I don't know, the Hart usually seems to be about points, but not always. Throughout the 80's Gretzky revitalized the game, and took it to new levels, and new places...that is why he was basically the MVP every season in the 80's. This season his points weren't as high, but playing with new players that he had never seen before while Lemieux played with people from 5 yrs in the past adds to some "inflation" in his point production...there is no doubting the medias power in the situation as well though, people just liked Wayne more then Mario.

This sounds very contradictory lol but I think Gretz is still deserving of the trophy even if he didn't have the point totals that season...you could basically give him the Hart trophy for the entire decade and most people in the hockey community would not argue one bit because of what he did for the game.

 

[tom_servo]

It was voted on at a time when Rob Brown was thought to be a superstar winger.

But Gretzky's season was of comparable significance, even in retrospect.

 

[Sensfanman]

199 points is a disappointment (200 is a milestone, just the nature of perspectives), year to year difference was not significant. Sure Mario could have got it, no one would have complained. But since day 1, rejecting the Pens, Mario seemed to have a more quiet, personal stigma. He was probably the most talented player, but not the most hollywood. There should be no hard feelings, both are still top 4 players of all time for 99% of people.

 

[Trottier]

how to lie with statistics

the day the Hart is handed out to the player with the most points is the day it no longer represents the idea of being about which player was the MVP to his team's success.

AMEN!

When will the insidious fantasy league-infested stat geeks learn the game?

Greater personal offensive numbers do not necessarily = greater value. Maybe on one's make-believe team, but not in the REAL WORLD of NHL hockey.

Please.

I have always preferred Mario to #99. And, indeed, a case could be made for his winning the Hart that season. But it hasn't been made here. Those who were not around might want to educate themselves on the environment that Gretzky helped spawn that year in Southern California. Hockey arrived with him that previous August. And his team, moridbund prior, was suddenly an exciting, competitive squad.

Simply comparing personal stats will not tell you that.

 

[NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS]

Why do people think that most valuable is somehow measurable by statistics?

 

[Trottier]

Why do people think that most valuable is somehow measurable by statistics?

My honest answer: laziness.

Crunching numbers is a lot easier than watching hockey games and evaluating a player in every aspect of the game, every area of the ice, and his impact on his team's results.

This is said with no malice, only regret: somewhere along the line, a newer generation of fan, weened on fantasy leagues and video games, reset the critieria for what it means to be a great NHL player. Team success has absolutely no place in their conversation, nor for that matter, does what a player accomplishes outside the offensive zone.

Only personal offensive numbers matter.

Sad for them. They are missing a lot.

 

[Crazyhorse]

Because Gretzky was more important to his team?

 

[mattihp]

Because Gretzky was more important to his team?

In what way? He didn't play as much on the PK as Mario, and had a smaller percentage of the goals scored on his team than Mario on his team and so on.