Who's the better career playoff performer - Joe Sakic or Sidney Crosby

[bobholly39]

In the top 40 playoff performer ranking that was done on here 3 years ago - Joe Sakic was voted in 12th, and Crosby 28th. But pretty sure this was done before Crosby's second smythe - i don't think any of his post-season that year was taken into account. He also had a strong individual showing the following year through 2 rounds.

Their career numbers are actually very close.

Crosby: 164 games, 66 goals 120 assists 186 points +18
Sakic: 172 games, 84 goals, 104 assists, 188 points - 2

Edge to Crosby in ppg, edge to Sakic in goal-scoring, but close.

13 playoff runs for Sakic, with 2 cups/final runs.
12 playoff runs for Crosby - with 3 cups/4 final runs.

Both are captains and known as great leaders (not sure who gets the edge?). Both have had strong offensive support (Forsberg/Malkin) - though Sakic likely gets the overall team edge here with Roy and others. Cap era vs non-cap era, so hard to say who gets the advantage, as some of the teams in the 90s were powerhouses. Which player had the higher scoring environments? Sakic played through some of the DPE but also through some much higher years in the 90s. Crosby also has some years with high and low scoring.

I feel as though their resumes are very comparable. Who do you have ahead, and why? And - how close do you think it is?

 

[Oheao]

3 Cups, 2 Conn Smythes, I'd say Crosby.

 

[MadLuke]

It is not too far, feel almost flip coin, Sakic had better teams by moments but faced better team at the same time:

Sakic

NHL.com Stats

NHL.com Stats

vs
Crosby
NHL.com Stats

Crosby dominated is era a bit more, so I guess it depends what we think of Forsberg, Federov, Jagr vs today competition.

 

[shadow1]

It's obviously close. Just to add food for thought, Sakic has an NHL Record (8) overtime goals in the playoffs.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

The numbers are very close (1.13 PPG for Crosby over 164 games vs. 1.09 PPG for Sakic over 172 games) but I think most of the context favours Sakic:

• Crosby has an extra Conn Smythe, but that's not very persuasive. Sakic's 1996 run is clearly better than Crosby's 2017 Smythe, and Sakic's 2001 run (when he didn't win the trophy) is clearly better than Crosby's 2016 Smythe (which is one of the weakest Smythes in NHL history).
• Sakic played a bigger role on his team's deeper runs. The Penguins went to the conference finals (or beyond) fives, and Crosby led them in scoring exactly one time. Sakic led his team in scoring in three of their six runs to the conference finals (or beyond). (As I recently noted in another thread, Crosby led his team in scoring five times in 13 playoff runs - Sakic did so in eight of thirteen).
• They were on the ice for nearly the same number of ES goals against. But Sakic was a significant contributor to his team's very good penalty kill. (Not that this was entirely due to Sakic - he played in front of some very good goalies and defensemen - but he took on additional defensive responsibilities).
• Sakic was a better scorer in key situations - eight OT goals is the all-time record.
• The biggest argument in favour of Sakic is looking at how they scored outside of the first round. Crosby scored 1.44 PPG in the first round and 0.94 PPG outside of it (Sakic scored 1.09 PPG in the first round and 0.97 PPG outside of that - both players dropped off, but it's 11% vs 35% decrease in production). Admittedly a small sample size but Sakic was a much better scorer in the Stanley Cup finals - 1.27 PPG vs 0.80 PPG.

There isn't a lot that separates them, but I think Sakic is ahead. That's not to say that Crosby can't pull ahead by the time his career is over, of course.

 

[Gurglesons]

It’s Crosby. And I’d argue it isn’t close given the team Sakic had behind him most years.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

It’s Crosby. And I’d argue it isn’t close given the team Sakic had behind him most years.

At what point do you disclose your team allegiance?

 

[GMR]

It's close and you can go either way.

I would say Sakic, largely because Crosby looked underwhelming during his four appearances in the Finals. Of course, Sakic only had two Finals, so a smaller sample size. While Sakic was no Guy Carbonneau, he also played a much better two-way game than Crosby.

Also, Crosby's Conn Smythe in 2016 was arguably the worst in history. Right up there with Niedermayer's win. I have a hard time considering him as a two time Smythe winner, knowing how unimpressive that win was for 2016.

The OT goals will be brought up, but I don't put too much stock in that. Bob Nystrom had four OT goals while I don't believe Messier ever scored one, despite playing in well over 200 playoff games. Neither Howe nor Lemieux ever scored an OT winner in the playoffs either. Just one of those things where the puck bounces on the right stick.

 

[Gurglesons]

At what point do you disclose your team allegiance?

Not sure why that matters. We are talking playoff success. One has two Conn Smythes, more cups and a better PPG.

Crosby also did his work in the cap era.

 

[GMR]

It’s Crosby. And I’d argue it isn’t close given the team Sakic had behind him most years.

What's wrong with Crosby's teammates? Along with Chicago, the Penguins have had the best roster in the league the last 10 years. You could argue Sakic didn't even play for the most loaded team, as Detroit had arguably more star power.

It's fair to say the Avalanche had a better roster than the Penguins (mostly at defense and goalie), but we're comparing these teams relative to their era. Not against each other.

 

[GMR]

Not sure why that matters. We are talking playoff success. One has two Conn Smythes, more cups and a better PPG.

Crosby also did his work in the cap era.

Sakic was better in the 2001 playoffs than Crosby was in 2016. You have to remember that Forsberg missed several playoff rounds that year, including the one against the 2001 Devils, who were a better team than any opponent Crosby defeated in the Finals.

Like I said above, the two Conn Smythes is pretty misleading here. I'll take Sakic in 1996 and 2001 over Crosby's 2016 and 2017 Smythes.

 

[Gurglesons]

What's wrong with Crosby's teammates? Along with Chicago, the Penguins have had the best roster in the league the last 10 years. You could argue Sakic didn't even play for the most loaded team, as Detroit had arguably more star power.

It's fair to say the Avalanche had a better roster than the Penguins (mostly at defense and goalie), but we're comparing these teams relative to their era. Not against each other.

Sakic had a player that outproduced him PPG wise in the playoffs and the best goaltender of all time along with gamers like Lemieux and Bourque along for the ride.

 

[Gurglesons]

Sakic was better in the 2001 playoffs than Crosby was in 2016. You have to remember that Forsberg missed several playoff rounds that year, including the one against the 2001 Devils, who were a better team than any opponent Crosby defeated in the Finals.

Like I said above, the two Conn Smythes is pretty misleading here. I'll take Sakic in 1996 and 2001 over Crosby's 2016 and 2017 Smythes.

Neat. Crosby has two more Smythe runs in his pocket in 07 and 08.

 

[GMR]

Sakic had a player that outproduced him PPG wise in the playoffs and the best goaltender of all time along with gamers like Lemieux and Bourque along for the ride.

Well, Malkin outproduced Crosby in several playoffs also. Much like with Forsberg and Sakic. Was Malkin that much worse than Forsberg? Besides, Forsberg was absent most of the 2001 playoffs. Also, Bourque had no significant impact on Sakic's playoff statistics. He was only there two playoffs, one of which was fairly underwhelming for Sakic (in 2000).

 

[GMR]

Neat. Crosby has two more Smythe runs in his pocket in 07 and 08.

Crosby sucked in the 2008 Finals. I'm assuming you mean 2009 and not 2007 for the other season? If you do, he sucked in those Finals as well and was outplayed by Malkin who won the Smythe.

 

[Gurglesons]

Well, Malkin outproduced Crosby in several playoffs also. Much like with Forsberg and Sakic. Was Malkin that much worse than Forsberg? Besides, Forsberg was absent most of the 2001 playoffs. Also, Bourque had no significant impact on Sakic's playoff statistics. He was only there two playoffs, one of which was fairly underwhelming for Sakic (in 2000).

Malkin outproduced Sid in two Cup wins correct. But Sid still has the better playoff stats in terms of PPG.

The two cup winning Avs teams are littered with HHOFs at every position. Who on the 3 Pens squads outside of Sid and Malkin are making the HHOF? Maybe Letang and Kessel? Maybe MAF?

 

[Gurglesons]

Crosby sucked in the 2008 Finals. I'm assuming you mean 2009 and not 2007 for the other season? If you do, he sucked in those Finals as well and was outplayed by Malkin who won the Smythe.

I thought this thread was about who was better in the playoffs. Not who was better in each round?

It is easy to compartmentalize the argument if you break it down by round or by “weak” Conn Smythe arguments.

If we are talking about overall picture. Crosby did a hell of a lot more with less throughout the past 15+ years.

Also, I’m not sure how a player that went a PPG in 2008 during the finals “sucked”.

 

[GMR]

Malkin outproduced Sid in two Cup wins correct. But Sid still has the better playoff stats in terms of PPG.

The two cup winning Avs teams are littered with HHOFs at every position. Who on the 3 Pens squads outside of Sid and Malkin are making the HHOF? Maybe Letang and Kessel? Maybe MAF?

That's why you have to compare teams relative to their era. Detroit, Dallas, and New Jersey were also filled with Hall of Famers. Not just Colorado.

There's not too many teams nowadays that will have four or five future Hall of Famers. Doesn't work that way. Letang, Kessel, and MAF are probably not Hall of Famers, but they're all in the Hall of Very Good, which is about as strong a lineup as you can get now in the league. The 2016 and 2017 Penguins were loaded with good players.

 

[Gurglesons]

That's why you have to compare teams relative to their era. Detroit, Dallas, and New Jersey were also filled with Hall of Famers. Not just Colorado.

There's not too many teams nowadays that will have four or five future Hall of Famers. Doesn't work that way. Letang, Kessel, and MAF are probably not Hall of Famers, but they're all in the Hall of Very Good, which is about as strong a lineup as you can get now in the league. The 2016 and 2017 Penguins were loaded with good players.

The 2016-17 Penguins are arguably the worst defensive core to win a cup in the cap area after the Canes. Sorry, not buying this argument at all.

 

[GMR]

I thought this thread was about who was better in the playoffs. Not who was better in each round?

It is easy to compartmentalize the argument if you break it down by round or by “weak” Conn Smythe arguments.

If we are talking about overall picture. Crosby did a hell of a lot more with less throughout the past 15+ years.

Also, I’m not sure how a player that went a PPG in 2008 during the finals “sucked”.

Since their overall numbers are close, I have to "compartmentalize" as you put it, to distinguish the two players. I haven't been that impressed with Crosby in the Finals. He hasn't taken over a Finals like Gretzky or Lemieux would do offensively.

We'll just have to disagree on the surrounding talent. The Penguins have had one of the best rosters in the league post 2007. What more do you want?

 

[Kyle McMahon]

It’s Crosby. And I’d argue it isn’t close given the team Sakic had behind him most years.

The teams of both players finished 1st or 2nd in their conference seven times during their careers (2011 Crosby missed the playoffs injured, so I guess maybe only six for him technically). Sakic's contending teams were probably better in the raw sense of the word, but that's a function of pre-salary cap conditions.

In terms of opportunities based on team strength, I think it's pretty equal at this point. Sakic's teams weren't very good outside of the 1995-2004 window. Crosby's Penguins have been a consistent contender for most of the years between 2008-2019.

 

[Gurglesons]

Since their overall numbers are close, I have to "compartmentalize" as you put it, to distinguish the two players. I haven't been that impressed with Crosby in the Finals. He hasn't taken over a Finals like Gretzky or Lemieux would do offensively.

We'll just have to disagree on the surrounding talent. The Penguins have had one of the best rosters in the league post 2007. What more do you want?

In terms of Penguins roster? Pascal Dupuis or Steve Sullivan not being a fixture on the top line through half a decade?

Crosby is likely going to finish his career as the best playoff producer in terms of raw production outside the Oilers in the cap era. He also will likely finish top ten in PPG in the playoffs.

 

[Gurglesons]

The teams of both players finished 1st or 2nd in their conference seven times during their careers (2011 Crosby missed the playoffs injured, so I guess maybe only six for him technically). Sakic's contending teams were probably better in the raw sense of the word, but that's a function of pre-salary cap conditions.

In terms of opportunities based on team strength, I think it's pretty equal at this point. Sakic's teams weren't very good outside of the 1995-2004 window. Crosby's Penguins have been a consistent contender for most of the years between 2008-2019.

And they have been a consistent contender largely on the back of Crosby and Malkin’s playoff prowess.

Nobody is saying Sakic isn’t a great playoff player. Sid is just the best since Mario and Wayne. And that’s why he has back to back Smythes and two other Cup runs which could have easily potted him two more.

 

[K Fleur]

Crosby did not "suck" in the 2008 finals. Even this board is not immune to people talking out of their ass. Despite a global pandemic providing everyone more time to reach back into their brains and find reality

 

[GMR]

And they have been a consistent contender largely on the back of Crosby and Malkin’s playoff prowess.

Nobody is saying Sakic isn’t a great playoff player. Sid is just the best since Mario and Wayne. And that’s why he has back to back Smythes and two other Cup runs which could have easily potted him two more.

His team lost in 2008. He got outplayed by Malkin in 2009. Kessel should have won in 2016. 2017 was the one year where I can see him winning, but it was far from a strong Smythe. I remember Malkin having a good case for 2017 as well.

Crosby did not "suck" in the 2008 finals. Even this board is not immune to people talking out of their ass. Despite a global pandemic providing everyone more time to reach back into their brains and find reality

You're right Mr. Penguin. I was thinking of 2009 when he had 3 points in the series. He was OK in 2008 but it was far below his productivity the rest of the playoffs that year.