Who's More Impressive To You: 2024-2025 Ovechkin Or Recent Crosby?

[DitchMarner]

Obviously I'm aware of all of these stats. I also am a Capitals fan, as you know, and watch every game Ovechkin plays.

Crosby is very obviously the better player at this stage of their careers.

Okay... so I admittedly don't watch the Penguins that often. Maybe you watch them more than I do. I've watched the Caps a good amount this season because of the record chase and because I just enjoy watching the team play.

What do you think is causing Crosby's defensive and goals against numbers to be so bad? Is it usage? Fatigue? Is he overworked? Maybe Sullivan's system is outdated and very ineffective now? I'm sure Crosby himself is declining physically, as players tend to do with age.

 

[Regal]

At age 36 Ovie had 50 goals and 90 points. Crosby had 40 goals and 93 points or something like that. Edge Ovie.

At age 37 Ovie had 42 goals and a higher PPG than Crosby does this season (age 37). Big advantage to Ovie.

Age 38 Ovie was pretty bad the first half and then picked it up. Pretty comparable to Crosby's current season where he's playing losing hockey and his sole purpose is to accumulate points like Eric Karlsson on the Sharks.

Age 39 Ovechkin is clearly the superior player to age 37 Crosby.

Ovechkin is giving up more shots, chances and expected goals against per 60 at 5v5 this year, and only slightly fewer high danger chances per 60 despite getting easier deployment and on a better team (all of Ovechkin’s relative numbers are worse, including high danger chances). The difference is his goalie is going to be a Vezina finalist and he’s getting a .935 SV% behind him at 5v5. Meanwhile Pittsburgh’s goalies have stunk and Sid has had a horrendous .876 SV% behind him which is heavily variance dependent. Sid gives up a lot defensively these days as I think he cheats a lot more for offense, but Ovechkin’s been just as bad this year by any measure other than goals against (which is heavily goalie depended). Sid also has worse ES numbers than 5v5 numbers because of empty net goals against, which is related to a bad team trying to come back while losing, something the Caps haven’t had to do.

Sid also has been out scoring his defensive issues the past couple years (+3 and +4 at 5v5 the previous two), and this year has significantly more shots, Corsi, expected goals and high danger chances for per 60 at 5v5 than Ovechkin. Despite his bad team, he’s still at 54% in terms of xGF this year (Ovechkin is at 45%), and continues to be one of the better 5v5 producers in the league. Even with his weak defense and terrible goaltending he’s -4 at 5v5 on a team that’s -33 with his off the ice. If you think that’s losing hockey then what the hell was Ovechkin doing last year when he was -20 at 5v5 on a team that was -12 without him on the ice?

 

[Midnight Judges]

Ovechkin is giving up more shots, chances and expected goals against per 60 at 5v5 this year,

Expected goals systematically overrates and underrates certain players over extremely large sample sizes. Literally every year, that stat screams that Ovechkin should not score as much as he does. By a wide margin.

These one size fits all metrics are not working properly, nor are they being interpreted properly.

 

[Midnight Judges]

The difference is his goalie is going to be a Vezina finalist and he’s getting a .935 SV% behind him at 5v5. Meanwhile Pittsburgh’s goalies have stunk and Sid has had a horrendous .876 SV% behind him which is heavily variance dependent.

Amazing coincidence how almost every goalie just so happens to suck playing behind Sidney Crosby.

But no. That is not "expected" even after 1100 games.

Crosby fans will tell you, with a straight face, that Crosby was disadvantaged by playing in front of a hall of fame goalie for much of his career (who then, not coincidentally, went on to win a Vezina elsewhere).

 

[895]

I am a capitals fan and an ovechkin fan

I find it very difficult to honestly rank how well Ovechkin does. Eye test wise he looks terrible most of the time to be frank. Yet he can look terrible all game and then score two goals to win the game.

Meanwhile Crosby looks better and more impactful via eye test but does that matter if doesn’t result in more goals scored while you are on the ice or your team winning more?

This isn’t a new thing. I think Ovechkin has looked terrible for many many years at this point yet he just keeps scoring.

McDavid looked brutal all game against the USA in the four nation final, then scored the golden goal to win it all. Did the previous 60 minutes of suckage matter?

 

[DitchMarner]

I am a capitals fan and an ovechkin fan

I find it very difficult to honestly rank how well Ovechkin does. Eye test wise he looks terrible most of the time to be frank. Yet he can look terrible all game and then score two goals to win the game.

Meanwhile Crosby looks better and more impactful via eye test but does that matter if doesn’t result in more goals scored while you are on the ice or your team winning more?

This isn’t a new thing. I think Ovechkin has looked terrible for many many years at this point yet he just keeps scoring.

McDavid looked brutal all game against the USA in the four nation final, then scored the golden goal to win it all. Did the previous 60 minutes of suckage matter?

At this stage of his career, Ovechkin is basically Brett Hull. He has a great shot and he finds ways to get chances to get it off, although he has stretches where his overall offensive play and production are good.

Crosby definitely does more on the ice. A lot of players do. But if that play isn't resulting in better contributions to putting the puck in the net or keeping it out, does it make much of a difference?

One area where he has a major advantage over Crosby is in his ability to beat goalies from a distance. He can be quiet and then fire a bomb on net and beat a goaltender cleanly and that can alter the complexion of a game. That's something Crosby simply doesn't have in his arsenal.

Crosby will always be better at certain things, but as he ages, it's possible he'll have a tougher time making his results look as good as Ovechkin's. If Ovie retains his shooting ability and the Caps keep devising ways to maximize his scoring output, I can see him scoring 40+ goals next year and maybe even after that if he stays in the NHL. Crosby doesn't have that long-distance scoring ability and has to work more for his goals and points, which can really take a toll as he continues to age.

 

[Video Nasty]

Ovechkin is giving up more shots, chances and expected goals against per 60 at 5v5 this year, and only slightly fewer high danger chances per 60 despite getting easier deployment and on a better team (all of Ovechkin’s relative numbers are worse, including high danger chances). The difference is his goalie is going to be a Vezina finalist and he’s getting a .935 SV% behind him at 5v5. Meanwhile Pittsburgh’s goalies have stunk and Sid has had a horrendous .876 SV% behind him which is heavily variance dependent. Sid gives up a lot defensively these days as I think he cheats a lot more for offense, but Ovechkin’s been just as bad this year by any measure other than goals against (which is heavily goalie depended). Sid also has worse ES numbers than 5v5 numbers because of empty net goals against, which is related to a bad team trying to come back while losing, something the Caps haven’t had to do.

Sid also has been out scoring his defensive issues the past couple years (+3 and +4 at 5v5 the previous two), and this year has significantly more shots, Corsi, expected goals and high danger chances for per 60 at 5v5 than Ovechkin. Despite his bad team, he’s still at 54% in terms of xGF this year (Ovechkin is at 45%), and continues to be one of the better 5v5 producers in the league. Even with his weak defense and terrible goaltending he’s -4 at 5v5 on a team that’s -33 with his off the ice. If you think that’s losing hockey then what the hell was Ovechkin doing last year when he was -20 at 5v5 on a team that was -12 without him on the ice?

Nothing will ever be Sid’s fault, will it?

 

[Regal]

Nothing will ever be Sid’s fault, will it?

What exactly is his “fault” that I’m excusing? I made it pretty clear that Crosby is giving up a ton defensively, but that his offense is making up for it. He’s 5th in 5v5 points and significantly improves his team’s GF% when on the ice. But if you think a .935 to .878 SV% swing between Crosby and Ovechkin is related to either of their defense, you’re out to lunch.

 

[Regal]

Amazing coincidence how almost every goalie just so happens to suck playing behind Sidney Crosby.

But no. That is not "expected" even after 1100 games.

Crosby fans will tell you, with a straight face, that Crosby was disadvantaged by playing in front of a hall of fame goalie for much of his career (who then, not coincidentally, went on to win a Vezina elsewhere).

Sure Crosby’s poor defense could have an impact on goalie SV%, but the difference is too large to suggest that it’s on him. His career 5v5 SV% is .916, and his current SV% would be one of the top 10 worst 5v5 SV % since 07-08 if it continues all year. Meanwhile, Ovechkin hasn’t had a 5v5 SV% above .918 since 16-17, and last year had an .898. But I’m sure his .935 is all his doing.

Crosby has to cheat a lot more offensively these days but he still drives play and produces at a high end 1C rate. Props to Ovechkin for still putting the puck in the net, and you can argue he’s more valuable when he’s scoring this much, but he’s certainly not better defensively or better at driving a line.

 

[Regal]

Expected goals systematically overrates and underrates certain players over extremely large sample sizes. Literally every year, that stat screams that Ovechkin should not score as much as he does. By a wide margin.

These one size fits all metrics are not working properly, nor are they being interpreted properly.

The comment you quoted talked about expected goals against not expected goals for. While some players like Ovechkin and Draisaitl consistently outscore their expected goals due to how good they are at shooting, when it comes to expected against, these things are largely ironed out due to the mix of competition. From 07-08 to 23-24 Ovechkin had 810 5v5 GA and 799.9 xGA. So essentially he gave up slightly more actual goals but it’s statistically insignificant. Meanwhile this year he’s been on the ice for 18 GA and 28xGA. So while I agree that his xGF% is unselling him, the numbers suggest that he’s been extremely lucky defensively.

 

[Plural]

SId was and continues to be the better player. But Ovechkin is more impressive. It's bit of luck and unsustainable play, but he is doing historical things this season.

 

[LokiDog]

This is phrased extremely awkwardly.

Sidney Crosby had 93 points as a 35 year old, 42 goals and 94 points as a 36 year old and is pacing for about 86 points as a 37 year old.

Ovechkin is pacing for about 58 goals and 90 points over 82 games at 39 years old, even after coming back from a broken leg.

Do you find Ovechkin’s 39 year old aeason to be “more impressive” than Crosby’s 37 year old aeason, 2/3 of his last 3 seasons, or all of them?

That’s the non-winding river version of the question you’re trying to ask.

I’d say a near 60 goal, 90 point pace at 39 years old even after breaking your leg is more “impressive” than a 42 goal/94 point aeason as a 36 year old, which is Sid’s best year of the 3. That doesn’t mean Ovie is a more impactful or better overall player. What he’s doing as a 39 year old, coming back from injury without mission a beat and scoring at a 60 goal pace is the most “impressive” of the 4 seasons.

Simplify the question, get a simple answer.

 

[PM88RU]

I never thought I’d say this but can’t we just respect both of what they do now without actually trying to compare them?

Am I the only one tired of this? We had 20 years to do so, wasn’t that enough?

Both are 5-15 greatest all time, and are more or less equal in what they’ve achieved and meant for the sport and the NHL. Let them retire without this kind of fan battles, both players deserve it.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Damn. 20 years later this comparison still going strong.


Remember Taylor vs Tyler?

 

[Video Nasty]

I never thought I’d say this but can’t we just respect both of what they do now without actually trying to compare them?

Am I the only one tired of this? We had 20 years to do so, wasn’t that enough?

Both are 5-15 greatest all time, and are more or less equal in what they’ve achieved and meant for the sport and the NHL. Let them retire without this kind of fan battles, both players deserve it.

20 years is nothing. They’ll be compared for as long as we’re a functioning civilization.

 

[bobbyking]

such bizzare poll options

 

[Dallas Winston]

Crosby is pushing for his third straight 90+ point season. Ovechkin has hit 90 points once in the last 15 years. Once! Post age 24. Lets get serious