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Who was the first all offense no defense defenseman?

jigglysquishy

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Jun 20, 2011
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As I'm doing research for the dman project I'm struck by how much every early rushing defenseman has fairly high expectations for defense. Between small rosters and tighter checking there simply isn't room for an all out offense defenseman who is weak in his own end. I'm thinking of a Phil Housley, Mike Green, Evan Bouchard, Justin Schultz, or late stage Erik Karlsson.

You need a big league with big rosters to make the most out of that skillset. You need a team weak enough to use that skillset. And you need scoring to be high enough for the weak defense to not kill a team.

I don't really see it working pre Orr and certainly not pre Kelly.
 
I would suggest looking at high-scoring seasons league-wide, since those would suggest an environment conducive for rushing and scoring defensemen.

The first four NHL seasons for example remain the highest scoring in history, and Harry Cameron had the most points by a defenseman during that span. Here’s how his Wikipedia article describes him:

“Cameron was a strong puck carrying defenseman who could electrify the crowd with his speedy rushes up the ice,[8] end-to-end rushes which also made him a viable goal-scoring threat in the face of the opposing teams, as he was also a crafty stick handler.[9] During his first two seasons in the NHA with the Toronto Blueshirts Cameron made a strong defensive pairing with Jack Marshall, and even though Cameron was only of average height (5 ft 10 in) and weight (155 lb) he could still use his body on the defensive side of the puck to stop oncoming opponents.[10] Later on, with the Toronto Arenas, he would pair with big-bodied defenseman Harry Mummery (220 lb). In the NHL Cameron had among his defensive partners Sprague Cleghorn (Ottawa Senators and Toronto St. Patricks) and Red Stuart (Toronto St. Patricks).”

I realize that OP said “no defense”, but it also mentions players who are competent defenders with the right partner. I’ve seen Housley kill penalties, and while he’s no Chelios or McCrimmon, he was hardly partnered up with the likes of them either.
 
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I think there's still some refining of your premise you could do as far as what you mean by "no defense". I'm certainly not going to litigate the fairness of calling any of the guys mentioned in the OP that, but mainly asking what it is they don't do that a merely offense-tilted defenseman does.

There's a poster here that likes to claim that he was disgusted to see Paul Coffey floating in the neutral zone, which I find highly suspicious as Coffey's biggest strength was starting the breakout and you can't do that from Panthers-Bure-Land. And for the most part as far as I can see, all of these guys will be below the dots when their team is defending, they just won't be doing anything effective while they're there.

There's a wide disparity between Flash Hollett's overall recognition as a good defenseman, and the number of points he put up, so there's another one, but I dont know know how that translates to on ice action ls or how that's different from what say, Babe Pratt was up to on the ice.
 
I mean, there's literally no such thing as an "all-offense, no defence" defenceman.

Evan Bouchard is usually pretty good defensively -- he's a battler when he's in a 1-on-1 situation, and he has an extremely good stick for knocking passes away from intended recipients. It can also be called a kind of defence to make strong first-passes out of the zone, at which he excels. Like most offensively killed Dmen, however, Bouchard sometimes gets caught out of position when pinching, has an unusually 'lackadaisical' demeanor when skating without the puck, and once in a while makes a egregious gafffe that makes the highlight reels (making casual watchers think he's worse defensively than he is). He was almost +50 last season (over 106 games played), which is ignoring his massive PP contribution. So, yeah, he's not Brad McCrimmon or Nick Lidstrom back there, but he's still playing defence at least 50% of the time.

Housley was pretty bad defensively in all the traditional ways... but even he had a +14 season at the end of the nineties for a pretty poor Flames' team, or mostly 'minus' players, that went +4 overall at evens, and was coached by Brian Sutter (Housley was also mentored by Scotty Bowman).

Justin Schultz, I really only noticed early with Edmonton, when he was horrid. But he developed and went on to win two Cups as a top-4 Dman. Can he really have been that bad?

Karlsson, as noted, has gotten much worse defensively later in his career (and yet was bizarrely rewarded with a Norris trophy for it).

Anyway, everybody plays some defence. Even offensive forwards. (Possible exceptions being Rick Vaive and Bernie Nicholls in the 1980s.)
 
It depends how you define "all offense, no defense"....but Coffey might be the best answer. With him, it was recognized and talked about a lot when he played

In the '70s, the truly great offensive defensemen - Orr, Park, Lapointe, Potvin, Salming - could all play some defense, usually excellent defense.

The next generation was distinguished by a very deep group of talented offensive defensemen, much deeper than any previous group. Coffey, Bourque, Reinhart, Hartsburg, Housley, MacInnis, Chelios, and several more came along within a few years.

At the same time, the league, overall, was pretty weak defensively. So, combining the deep group of skilled players (and great skaters) with the weak-defensively league, gave us some talented offensive Ds who didn't, and in some cases couldn't play good defense.

Some of these '80s guys could play good defense, and some of them couldn't....and some of them learned to play decent defense over time.

People used to compare Coffey to a pylon. Maybe that was a bit harsh, but he was weak defensively for most of his career.
 
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I mean, there's literally no such thing as an "all-offense, no defence" defenceman.

Evan Bouchard is usually pretty good defensively
Checks out haha

In the lawyer definition of "all offense, no defense" sure...that player may not exist. But the intent is clear. And there are players like that...

That said, if Evan Bouchard is "pretty good" defensively and that's the bar...then no, there are no players that would fit this description based on that criteria.

And I've learned that no matter how many clips you post of a player doing the same dumb nonsense defensively and getting burned, that's just "the worst game(s) of his life" and not indicative of his usual routine haha

I will say that Erik Karlsson is about as casual and up-ice as they come...but that doesn't address the question posed in the topic at all.
 
Housley is probably the purest version of this. I'd have to think that the first one would have to come post-Orr based on the changing expectations for a defenceman. First could be someone like Tallon or Larson.
 
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King Clancy, maybe? There were references to some not like his offensive style of play.
 
Hard to define. Lots of defensemen started out abysmal at D, but got better with time, e.g. Gonchar. If the bar is a MAB, then look for players who were used heavily on PP and sparingly 5 on 5?
 
Flash Hollett was the first one to come to mind when I read this thread. He did have that 20 goal season in the 1945 season, so I think that is held against him since it was the War years. And he was a 2nd team all-star in 1943, which wasn't quite like 1944 or 1945 in the depleted sense. 1st teamer in 1945. So there's that. Plus he won a Cup with the Bruins in 1939 and 1941 and was a good part of it on the back end. I guess my argument is there could be more of a deep dive for him in the HHOF. But I think it has always been understood that he was full out offense on the back end, so it could be him that fits this thread.
 
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If we put the bar at Marc Andre Bergeron, that could be interesting.

in 2009-2010 he was playing 3 minutes of PP a night, 11 second of PK and 12 of ev.

On montreal roster he played the most minutes of PP that year while playing the 7th most on even strength minutes.

Of those even strength minutes he envoyed the most offensive zone start (just 53% not a great team in that regard), but he was not bleeding goal at all with that deployment and Halak-Price having a 94% sv percentage while he was on the ice.

If team were allowed to dress a power play specialist like a designated hitter, MAB could have been one of those with a long career.
 
Flash Hollett was the first one to come to mind when I read this thread. He did have that 20 goal season in the 1945 season, so I think that is held against him since it was the War years. And he was a 2nd team all-star in 1943, which wasn't quite like 1944 or 1945 in the depleted sense. 1st teamer in 1945. So there's that. Plus he won a Cup with the Bruins in 1939 and 1941 and was a good part of it on the back end. I guess my argument is there could be more of a deep dive for him in the HHOF. But I think it has always been understood that he was full out offense on the back end, so it could be him that fits this thread.
I caught some clips of him and actually didn't get the impression that he belongs in this thread...I'll try to track back and actually look for him, but it wasn't crazy and I think js is looking for some pretty crazy...

The O6 just might not have this player. Every time I think of someone who is horrible defensively, it's just that they're bad, not that they're bringing offense haha - Al Langlois is bad at defense and also unskilled...which isn't a criteria match...
 
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Paul Coffey was minus player only when he played for Penguins (and end of his career at Blackhawks, Hurricanes and Bruins). And in his career through 1531 games +/- was +294.

He was always on the plus side in Oilers and Redwings. His biggest strength was his skating and coaches liked to utilize it. In Edmonton and later in Detroit coaches did it right and there were defensively good enough players supporting him. In Pittsburgh not so much. In my opinion most of his bad rep comes from those Pittsburgh years, but it was also a system issue. Those teams were pretty bad defensively.
 
Mike McEwen. Risto Siltanen. Andy Delmore. Reijo Ruotsalainen. Gaston Gingras. Greg Hawgood. Norm Maciver.

My Best-Carey

I don't think he was the first, but Any Elmore was the first name that came to my head when reading the thread title.
 
i don’t know much about tallon, mcewen, hampton (mentioned upthread) or say doug halward or dick redmond, but i assume that because they were scoring dmen that you never hear about as being good that they probably sucked defensively

that said maybe these poor guys just got stuck on crappy teams
 
Re-reading the OP, the inclusion of Justin Schultz actually raises the bar for me a bit...I think I can dip to that level (he was fine in Pittsburgh), plus I don't want you to leave empty handed (also, I'm irrationally interested in the thread's concept)...so, relative to the expectations of the time AND factoring in the prominence of the player...I'm going to throw you Bill Gadsby.

I'll leave it to the better researchers to see if they can read in between the lines a bit on the newspaper stuff, but there's some patterns in his game that mimic some of the modern names that you had listed in the OP.



CHI4 (dark jersey, LHS) briefly, he's way up in the play and trying hard to get back. He is a competitor, I'll give him that. But not well versed in fundamental defense. Gadsby is caught flat footed here and DET15 glances his triangle before taking it wide around the missed pokecheck. Gadsby shows fairly weak recovery ability here and DET15 protects well. Gadsby is unable to even knock him off stride slightly, allowing DET15 to take it to hole unmolested.

In the immediate cut after this, Gadsby fails to box out or pick up the stick of DET8 (who has beaten Gadsby to his own net). DET8 is mighty mouse - the diminutive Tony Leswick. Gadsby tries to come through his back with Leswick digging away, and it's Gadsby that folds before his attempted kneeling tackle of DET8.



NYR4 (white jersey, still a LHS)...if you didn't know any better, you'd think the puck was chipped into the corner, but no...once again, we have some poor rush absorption techniques from that particular spot. I actually don't mind turn-and-go d-men, I helped teach a lot of offensive d-men how to play from that position...but this is a different time, and this isn't actually steeped in fundamental principles. He gets a chunk of the Leaf, but...I mean, what the ****, right? haha pardon my French...



NYR4 (still white, still lefty)...again, we got gap issues, we have rush absorption issues. Freeze it as TOR9 approaches the attack line, look at the gift runway that Gadsby gives (screenshot below), Not only that, but TOR9 is bracketed pretty good, where you should have the confidence to step up here...not that you need a kill shot, but just a tighter gap, shut this thing down at the line while you have the extra "half" d-man because of offside, or right after he crosses the line...

Screenshot 2025-05-06 212005.png


That's not very good. Then let it roll...

Again, Gadsby gets his triangle violated, yields an unearned "A" scoring chance, and commits what ought to be a foul.

Since he gets to stay out there, the very next sequence is just as tough...



He's over on the right side now (still left handed)...the challenge gets much tougher upgrading the rush from Duff to Mahovlich. This is peak Mahovlich too, and he's a load to handle. A couple elements here...Mahovlich is outside the dots and Gadsby has a chance to own them...Mahovlich makes quick work of remedying that. Next step is the arc to the net, which carries through Gadsby's triangle. Gadsby tries to hang in there...but he misses the pokecheck (once again) and then is on all fours.

Later in the same shift, more clues...



Pretty good at the line here this time because there's commotion and expectations are lower, but when he gets uncomfortable and has to sort, he just plants and drops in place to a block a shot. I think he gets newspaper-cred for his shot blocking and that's all well and good, but there's tactical shot blocking and "I have no idea what's going on, I'll be a surrogate goaltender" shot blocking. Same thing with physicality...there's tactical "remove man from puck" physicality, and there's "let me chase a hit way over here" physicality...one has more use than the other.

But look who comes flying into frame with the puck to start the rush? All of a sudden, we have engagement and confidence. Look who drives the back post - in this era - it's Gadsby. And look who passed back in the direction of where he came from that led to a would-be Mahovlich breakaway...now, look at the names that people are listing off from the last 30 years, tell me that's not something you'd see from some of these guys...



Last man back here with backtrackers...and his answer for this rush is, uhhhh, the same response one would give with a broom if a raccoon was on their back porch...

It looks a little better in Detroit...but I wouldn't take a clinic from this guy certainly.



I'm a process guy. Results can break either way, but a consistently good process usually leads to consistently better results. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't, but good process expands your platform luck. So you look at the technique. Freeze it at 0:49. MTL6 is basically on the wall. You have inside position. You're in good shape gap wise. You should be able to rub this out with your eyes closed, this is your 20th season in the league...and, with all due respect, that's not Beliveau, it's Ralph Backstrom.

Instead of taking the easy route, Gadsby has his stick at hip height and loads up to swat this puck away. And, look, that IS a way to do it. It's not the smartest thing in the world because it's super inefficient. BUT, watch someone like Erik Karlsson...he does that too because he loads an edge into the motion. So it's sort of a sweep check and then he jumps around you for the steal for sudden change hockey. Gadsby played in an era where you accumulated your years in dog years, right? Tough league, he played for some dog**** teams...does a 64 year old Gadsby need to be doing that, up 1-0 midway through game 1 of the Final...? Meh, probably not. But this is what he does, he's not a very effective defensive player.

And as much as he had some "calmer" moments...there was still a lot of this kind of stuff mixed in (he's pinching on the right side at the attack line here and it's pretty feckless).



"All offense, no defense" ehhhh...that's probably a little strong. But relative to his peers, I think this is as good (err...) as you're gonna get for this entire era.
 
I caught some clips of him and actually didn't get the impression that he belongs in this thread...I'll try to track back and actually look for him, but it wasn't crazy and I think js is looking for some pretty crazy...

The O6 just might not have this player. Every time I think of someone who is horrible defensively, it's just that they're bad, not that they're bringing offense haha - Al Langlois is bad at defense and also unskilled...which isn't a criteria match...

You didn't play if you were bad defensively as a defenseman back in the O6, that's true
 
You didn't play if you were bad defensively as a defenseman back in the O6, that's true
Hollett played from 1934 to 1946, so his only overlap with the O6 is the very weakest years of that period. There's no way there aren't some very stinky defensemen playing in the last 4 years of Hollett's career, whether or not the top offensive producers (Pratt, Hollett, Egan) number among them is a legitimate question deserving a serious look.
 
Instead of taking the easy route, Gadsby has his stick at hip height and loads up to swat this puck away. And, look, that IS a way to do it. It's not the smartest thing in the world because it's super inefficient. BUT, watch someone like Erik Karlsson...he does that too because he loads an edge into the motion. So it's sort of a sweep check and then he jumps around you for the steal for sudden change hockey. Gadsby played in an era where you accumulated your years in dog years, right? Tough league, he played for some dog**** teams...does a 64 year old Gadsby need to be doing that, up 1-0 midway through game 1 of the Final...? Meh, probably not. But this is what he does, he's not a very effective defensive player.
Oh man, what a post. Gadsby is one of those names I'd seen countless times on lists and read paragraphs about without really being able to picture him or his playstyle outside of some grainy SCF footage. Yes, this post is critical of his abilities, but that's what makes it valuable. Someone slotting him in at 20 on a list or something and glazing over everything negative (or more likely, being unaware of those flaws in the first place) just pushes the disinformation down the line. If Evan Bouchard existed in 1950, I would want to know about his flaws.

The phrase "Does he really need to be doing all that?" is hilarious and has applications outside of hockey, too. I'll be borrowing it to describe over-zealous singers in the post-punk and mid-west emo sphere of music.
 
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