Who was Mike Liut and why did he win the Pearson?

[Bluesguru]

The 80-81 season, Liut carried the Blues on his back. What did the Blues have on defense back then? I'll tell you. Nothing. Rick LaPointe? Ed Kea? Bill Stewart? Joe Michelletti? Bryan Maxwell? Gerry Hart at the end of his career? That was the one thing that Blues team was missing and why they couldn't at least get to the Conference Finals that year. They had zero impact from the back end.

Charlie Simmer once said Liut was like a mountain with arms.

Liut, for the most part, was a money goaltender in big games. He usually rose to the occasion. In 84 he carried the Blues in the post-season & came within a goal of the Conf Finals and again in 86 with Hartford, he came within 1 goal of beating the eventual SC Champion Canadiens in the Division Finals.

Too bad the Blues were forced to trade him due to financial reasons, I always felt that Liut would of beaten Calgary in the Conf Finals back in 86, had he stayed in St. Louis.

 

[66871]

There were a lot of old time hockey guys (including players) who didn't think a lot of Gretzky in his first couple of years. They didn't like the comparisons to mr hockey and didn't want to give him any credit.

This can't be stated enough. I was at Wayne's first game in the Igloo (complete with a bench-clearing brawl). And for a long time I still had the copy of Goal magazine from that game. There was a piece in there (IIRC) casting doubt about what Gretzky would actually do in the league and if he could handle the physicality. I vaguely remember some quotes (probably unattributed) about how he would be out muscled etc.

I think there was a sense that it was outside the bounds of hockey culture for gretzky to be as illusive, contact-shy as he was.

Also, Liut was amazing that year. I stayed up way past my bed-time watching the double OT game 5 the Pens lost at the Checkerdome.

 

[fish7]

This can't be stated enough. I was at Wayne's first game in the Igloo (complete with a bench-clearing brawl). And for a long time I still had the copy of Goal magazine from that game. There was a piece in there (IIRC) casting doubt about what Gretzky would actually do in the league and if he could handle the physicality. I vaguely remember some quotes (probably unattributed) about how he would be out muscled etc.

I think there was a sense that it was outside the bounds of hockey culture for gretzky to be as illusive, contact-shy as he was.

Also, Liut was amazing that year. I stayed up way past my bed-time watching the double OT game 5 the Pens lost at the Checkerdome.

That was the most exciting game I have ever been to. I was in 8th grade. I have a picture of the celebration seconds after the goal hanging on my wall

 

[66871]

That was the most exciting game I have ever been to. I was in 8th grade. I have a picture of the celebration seconds after the goal hanging on my wall

Well, 13 year-old me was very disappointed. LOL. Belated post-series congrats.

Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCYU1nlbvcQ

 

[fish7]

Well, 13 year-old me was very disappointed. LOL. Belated post-series congrats.

Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCYU1nlbvcQ

Well you guys have done a lot better than us since then

I could not believe you guys let Millen go after the next season. I was happy when we got him for Liut in 85. He stole a lot of games when he was with the Blues

 

[Big Phil]

I wouldn't call a 2nd-place finish "ill-fated". Canada was probably the 2nd-best hockey team at that precise moment, and accordingly finished 2nd. Prior to the final game, they'd been smoking the competition and looked great. Sometimes a 3-1 game that's already over ends up 8-1 by the end of the third.

Having said that, Liut was, I think, kind of over-rated in that period. The tail-end of the 70s to about 1987 or 1988 is kind of a weak period for goaltenders, and Liut was given too much credit for St.Louis's 1980-81 success -- short-lived as it was. Had it been 1980 or 1982, Liut wouldn't have been starting for Team Canada, I don't think.

Question: Why wasn't Billy Smith or Pete Peeters starting for Canada in '81?

I don't know, Canada was still in the game going into the 3rd period. That game was far from over. The Soviets just exploded for 5 goals that period and made it a blow out. The funny thing is the game was scoreless after the 1st period. I mean, that was 8 goals allowed in 2 periods. Not very good. Liut did let a couple weak ones in but it is fair to say that he was far from the only problem in that game. With that all-star line up Canada should have mustered more than one goal. That's another story for another day, but the point is Liut deserves some of the blame, just not the whole thing. Heck, I can think of two games where a goalie was as bad if not worse in an international blow out:

- Gerry Cheevers in the deciding game in the 1979 Challenge Cup. He let in some weak goals in that 6-0 drubbing. I'll give him credit, the game was close going into the 3rd period, it was 2-0. But the floodgates opened in the 3rd.

- Evgeni Nabokov vs. Canada in the quarters at the 2010 Olympics. Let 4 goals in the first period and the score was 6-1 by the early second when he got pulled. Final score 7-3. You can blame Ovechkin, you can blame Malkin or whoever else, but that game was over before it even got off the ground. I always found this one much worse than Liut's.

The reason Smith wasn't playing was mentioned earlier, it was an injury. I would suspect the guy who had won two Cups in a row might have a good shot at playing the lion's share of the games but we'll never know. Plus Liut was coming off his big 1981 year. The other goalie was Don Edwards. Here was the muddy thing with that. Edwards was Scotty Bowman's goalie in Buffalo. He beat the Russians in the round robin - 7-3 - although both teams had their supposed back up playing. I think Bowman might have felt putting Edwards in for the big game would look like he was favouring "his" goalie. But he probably would have been more successful as Edwards already had a look at the Soviets.

 

[Big Phil]

Here is an honest question............is Liut in the HHOF today if he wins that game in 1981? Let's say Canada beats a very strong Soviet team after coming off a disastrous performance in the Challenge Cup in 1979 (I know it wasn't "Team Canada" technically). Let's also say he has more or less the same career he had. How do we view him differently? Is he that much of a borderline guy that a win there catapults him? He led the NHL in wins for the decade of the 1980s and I bet people don't know that. As it stands I believe he is the only player with three top 6 finishes for the Hart that isn't in the HHOF other than Markus Naslund.

I think this is a very interesting debate. Think of how Curtis Joseph might be viewed differently had he won the 2002 Olympics and not been replaced with Brodeur. Joseph had a bit of a reputation of not winning the "big" game. A lot of Liut's reputation would have changed with that win.

 

[The Panther]

Bill Ranford or Mike Liut?

Ranford got the Cup win (and deserving Conn Smythe in '90) and the Canada Cup win (and MVP in '91), but, outside of those two seasons, was a good NHL goalie who didn't win anything.

If Liut wins that '81 Canada Cup, maybe he is the Bill Ranford of his time... but arguably with more longevity as an 'elite'-level goalie.

 

[HawkNut]

Was Liut the best goalie of the '80s? He holds the record for the most of many key goalie stats of that decade.

 

[Bluesguru]

That was the most exciting game I have ever been to. I was in 8th grade. I have a picture of the celebration seconds after the goal hanging on my wall

Way to go fish. I remember going to bed listening to the game on the radio and then like a miracle, I woke up, I believe it was a little after 12 am, can't remember for sure, but it was just in time to hear the faceoff taken that led to Crombeen's goal. I mean perfect timing as if someone tapped me on the shoulder and said hey wake up, don't miss this

 

[Bluesguru]

Here is an honest question............is Liut in the HHOF today if he wins that game in 1981? Let's say Canada beats a very strong Soviet team after coming off a disastrous performance in the Challenge Cup in 1979 (I know it wasn't "Team Canada" technically). Let's also say he has more or less the same career he had. How do we view him differently? Is he that much of a borderline guy that a win there catapults him? He led the NHL in wins for the decade of the 1980s and I bet people don't know that. As it stands I believe he is the only player with three top 6 finishes for the Hart that isn't in the HHOF other than Markus Naslund.

I think this is a very interesting debate. Think of how Curtis Joseph might be viewed differently had he won the 2002 Olympics and not been replaced with Brodeur. Joseph had a bit of a reputation of not winning the "big" game. A lot of Liut's reputation would have changed with that win.

You're right, I didn't know that. Thank you for the insight

 

[Bluesguru]

Well, 13 year-old me was very disappointed. LOL. Belated post-series congrats.

Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCYU1nlbvcQ

Those Penguin teams were actually loaded. Even though they only had like 65 points, that roster had some serious talent. Mike Bullard and Mark Johnson for example were late season rookie additions. Lots of great veteran talent at the forward position on that team and you had a young Randy Carlyle on D. And if that series wasn't enough, the Pens came back the following year and did the exact same thing all over again when they played the Islanders in the 1st rd and lost in Gm 5 OT all over again. GEEZ!!!

 

[Big Phil]

Was Liut the best goalie of the '80s? He holds the record for the most of many key goalie stats of that decade.

No, I think Grant Fuhr would the most popular answer. I agree with that assessment as well. I think Smith would be another popular choice but I think he faded a little more once the mid 80s hit. I think Smith might be a good choice if the question is 1975-'85. But the 1980s go to Fuhr here. Roy and Vernon showed up later and no other goalie stood out. But you could argue Liut is #2, he just did a lot of it under the radar.

 

[HawkNut]

No, I think Grant Fuhr would the most popular answer. I agree with that assessment as well. I think Smith would be another popular choice but I think he faded a little more once the mid 80s hit. I think Smith might be a good choice if the question is 1975-'85. But the 1980s go to Fuhr here. Roy and Vernon showed up later and no other goalie stood out. But you could argue Liut is #2, he just did a lot of it under the radar.

How different, if any, would things have been if Liut was on Edmonton and Fuhr St. Louis?

From Liut's wiki page, this is worth pointing out:

Most Wins (239) by a Goaltender in the 1980s decade.
Most Shutouts (22) by a Goaltender in the 1980s decade.
Most Games Played (544) by a Goaltender in the 1980s decade.
Most Minutes (31597) played by a Goaltender in the 1980s decade.

I'm just throwing that out there.

 

[Big Phil]

How different, if any, would things have been if Liut was on Edmonton and Fuhr St. Louis?

From Liut's wiki page, this is worth pointing out:

Most Wins (239) by a Goaltender in the 1980s decade.
Most Shutouts (22) by a Goaltender in the 1980s decade.
Most Games Played (544) by a Goaltender in the 1980s decade.
Most Minutes (31597) played by a Goaltender in the 1980s decade.

I'm just throwing that out there.

I guess you can just say that is an alternate universe. The Oilers played to Fuhr's strengths and vice versa. He was a goalie content with the win and not bothered by his numbers or even being left out to dry at times, especially in the regular season. It is possible Liut fits into that role as well but there is a lot of "what ifs" in there. I really can't say how things shake out that way, all I can say is what actually transpired.

 

[TheStatican]

I wonder what Liut's save % was that year, any chance has was over .900? And for that matter I wonder why in the heck the NHL didn't keep track of save % when they were already had been keeping track of shots for a long time.

 

[Doctor No]

I wonder what Liut's save % was that year, any chance has was over .900? And for that matter I wonder why in the heck the NHL didn't keep track of save % when they were already had been keeping track of shots for a long time.

Unofficially, he was at 0.892.:

http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/liut.html

 

[DowntownBooster]

As a young goaltender, I fell in love with Liut's mask.

I also thought he had a great mask as well. The one he had in Cincinnati and St. Louis looked sharp but by the time he got to Hartford the mask he had wasn't so nice looking.

.

 

[CHGoalie27]

Liut also finished second that season to Gretzky in the Hart race.

I just thought: Put Liut on Edmonton at that time and Fuhr on St. Louis. It's fun to wonder about any differences.

This thread has opened up every thing everyone has ever ignored me saying.

What if Lundqvist went to the Hawks or Pens? Brodeur to the Rangers(either Richter or Lundqvist era)?

Best in the world has little to do with stats and trophies, and for whatever mind boggling reason, very few people seem to recognize that or even know what that means.

Hell nowadays people talk like you don't get a shutout and you had a mediocre game.

I dunno how many thousands of other goalies this goes for, but my best games weren't my shutouts but when a better team had 60+ shots and double digits on the board. Didn't matter how many went in, but the more/less 50 saves I felt myself making...the point is no matter how on point I felt, there are shots that are just not happening for me or for any other human goalie and too many people call too many of those "soft goals".

 

[CHGoalie27]

The 80-81 season, Liut carried the Blues on his back. What did the Blues have on defense back then? I'll tell you. Nothing. Rick LaPointe? Ed Kea? Bill Stewart? Joe Michelletti? Bryan Maxwell? Gerry Hart at the end of his career? That was the one thing that Blues team was missing and why they couldn't at least get to the Conference Finals that year. They had zero impact from the back end.

Charlie Simmer once said Liut was like a mountain with arms.

Liut, for the most part, was a money goaltender in big games. He usually rose to the occasion. In 84 he carried the Blues in the post-season & came within a goal of the Conf Finals and again in 86 with Hartford, he came within 1 goal of beating the eventual SC Champion Canadiens in the Division Finals.

Too bad the Blues were forced to trade him due to financial reasons, I always felt that Liut would of beaten Calgary in the Conf Finals back in 86, had he stayed in St. Louis.

What were the defensive tendencies of the forwards on that team? Who stood out in the playoffs and who disappointed? I'll give you the names of every Rangers player of the last few decades that was immediately rid off following being one of the only good looking playoff types(all while keeping duds) in return. Starting with Dan Girardi LOL

 

[popo]

If Liut could have stayed healthy would he have put Washington over the top? You have to think they acquired him with that expectation. They did go to the Semi Final upon his arrival in '90. I guess by that point he was too old. A prime Liut I'd consider far ahead of Don Beaupre. And Beaupre put up good numbers as Washington's top goalie in the early 90s.

 

[Bluesguru]

If Liut could have stayed healthy would he have put Washington over the top? You have to think they acquired him with that expectation. They did go to the Semi Final upon his arrival in '90. I guess by that point he was too old. A prime Liut I'd consider far ahead of Don Beaupre. And Beaupre put up good numbers as Washington's top goalie in the early 90s.

Liut had back problems that forced him to retire while he was with the Caps. He retired a little prematurely and his playing time cut short the last few years. I would of liked to have seen him healthy with the Caps. That would of been a good fit.

 

[fish7]

I also thought he had a great mask as well. The one he had in Cincinnati and St. Louis looked sharp but by the time he got to Hartford the mask he had wasn't so nice looking.

.

He switched from his original mask because he kept getting hit in the head and would have to leave games because he was bleeding. He wore a helmet and bird cage his last year in st. louis

You guys do know that he is a player agent now, Taresenko is one of his clients

 

[66871]

I also thought he had a great mask as well. The one he had in Cincinnati and St. Louis looked sharp but by the time he got to Hartford the mask he had wasn't so nice looking.

.

The entire Cincy look is bad-ass. Plus he has an actual waffle-board blocker. Doc Emerick would love that.

 

[66871]

Well you guys have done a lot better than us since then

I could not believe you guys let Millen go after the next season. I was happy when we got him for Liut in 85. He stole a lot of games when he was with the Blues

Dion was supposed to be awesome so I guess Millen was viewed as expendable. The Penguins goaltender situation seems to be perpetually unsettled. Even during the Fleury years he was so controversial. I hope Murray is very boring.