Who was better: Kopitar or Bergeron?

[VanIslander]

My knee-jerk reaction was to say of course Bergeron. Memories of him winning defensive faceoffs and scoring in clutch situations was strong.

But, i loathe the Kings as a member of the pit of hell i've wished to send the Pens, Flames, Devils back to.... yet... yet... the more i look at it...

I have seen much more of Bergeron than Kopitar. The former is more killer instinct and less passive. He doesn't backcheck, recover and then pass off to a 'mate who can't hit the backside of the barn. INTENSITY, energy, Bergeron works it, wins it and seals it.

Kopitar? He looks like he's constipated at times, after great d play... maybe i miss his best, maybe i haven't seen enough of his regular play.

No diss. This is a real q. I am wondering whether the other way i should be leaning.

Evidence? Arguments? Links. Etc.

Click to read more...

 

[JackSlater]

I'd say that Kopitar is marginally better, mainly due to his superior offence as Bergeron is definitely better defensively. If I had to build around only one it would be Kopitar, but if I was trying to complement pretty much any star player I'd want Bergeron.

 

[Stephen]

Boston's quick retool in the mid 2010s allowed Bergeron to compete in more meaningful games in the latter half of his career so I think he remained more relevant for longer. Whereas Los Angeles' cup hangover basically put Kopitar on the back 9 as early as 27, wasting so much of his prime on non playoff seasons... but you can't really go wrong with multiple Selke's, 2 Stanley Cups and over 1200 points (and counting). Doesn't feel like it should be Kopitar, but it's probably Kopitar.

 

[MadLuke]

If I had to build around only one it would be Kopitar,

I think this one (build around) is easier to answer than who was better, seem really close but with Kopitar is a bigger athlete (and maybe part luck, maybe not) seem like will maybe go and play in 1600 nhl games or something like that.

Kopitar played 1,373 of the team 1,404 regular season games a 80.2 games a season pace (and 97 of the 103 playoffs one), he has been a bit of Lidstrom level of availability for a franchise has of now.

Bergeron played in 170 of the Bruins 184 games so like Malkin really good in that regard but 1,294 of the regualr season 1,486 games (71.4 games a season pace).

Would someone prefer Bergeron skill set enough over Kopitar to make up for the difference in availability ?

 

[seventieslord]

I don't know. Kopitar is an excellent defensive forward, but Bergeron was a generational defensive forward. He was off the charts. One of the very few difference makers who was noticeable to almost anyone and not just those with a scout's eye.

Think of Guy Charbonneau and why he was a more memorable and significant player, and why he makes more sense as a hipster HHOF pick than dozens of other forwards who were merely good/great defensively and somewhat better offensively then Carbo: guys like Muller, Linden, Ridley.... I dunno, Corson, Kisio, Steen, Gustafsson, Khristich, Brent Sutter, Damphousse, Troy Murray...

If you were to just give these guys ratings out of 10 offensively and defensively, and add them up, you might come to the conclusion that they were much better than Carbo. But he was the kind of guy who breaks that kind of rating system. A 10 defensively wouldn't do him justice. There's no way to account for the fact the he was special. He was uniquely impactful defensively.

And to me, that's Bergeron too. I don't think you can just say "kopitar's offensive edge is bigger than Bergeron's defensive edge" so casually. It downplays Bergeron's defensive edge. Kopitar was not "special " offensively, he was a top 20 kind of guy.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Oh what a tedious video breakdown this might make haha

This is tough. I think Bergeron is better defensively. I'm kinda sure Kopitar is more technically skilled.

I'm trying to form a thought that does this justice...maybe it's easier to build around Kopitar, but the payoff is better if you build up Bergeron...?

I guess my reasoning is: If Bergeron is your main attraction, you're probably a good team, but not likely a super serious contender. But if Bergeron is your #3 (or whatever) piece, you're probably a big time contender to win it all.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Bergeron for me. He was better defensively and I'd call them even offensively with maybe a small advantage Kopitar. It gets lost to time how restrictive Bergeron's usage was in his prime under Julien.

2010-2015 is fair to call each of their peaks:

	Bergeron	Kopitar
ES Points	245	255
ES PPG	0.56	0.57
Avg O-Zone %	45%	55%
Avg PP TOI	2:30	3:30
Avg TOI	18:23	20:57

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

I think this one (build around) is easier to answer than who was better, seem really close but with Kopitar is a bigger athlete (and maybe part luck, maybe not) seem like will maybe go and play in 1600 nhl games or something like that.

Kopitar played 1,373 of the team 1,404 regular season games a 80.2 games a season pace (and 97 of the 103 playoffs one), he has been a bit of Lidstrom level of availability for a franchise has of now.

Bergeron played in 170 of the Bruins 184 games so like Malkin really good in that regard but 1,294 of the regualr season 1,486 games (71.4 games a season pace).

Would someone prefer Bergeron skill set enough over Kopitar to make up for the difference in availability ?

Bergeron in his prime missed 11 total games over 8 seasons (2010-2017).

You are also glossing over ~90 games he missed over 2 seasons that have nothing to do with durability and were from Randy Jones ramming his head into the boards and causing what could've been a career ending concussion.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I'd say that Kopitar is marginally better, mainly due to his superior offence as Bergeron is definitely better defensively. If I had to build around only one it would be Kopitar, but if I was trying to complement pretty much any star player I'd want Bergeron.

Surprisingly, Bergeron was the better goal scorer.

82 game average:

Kopitar 25-47-72

Bergeron 28-38-66

 

[JackSlater]

Surprisingly, Bergeron was the better goal scorer.

82 game average:

Kopitar 25-47-72

Bergeron 28-38-66

Has a better average I guess, I'm not sure that he was a better goal scorer. Playing with a superstar winger or two in his early to mid 30s probably helped him put up his best goal scoring seasons during that span. Of course Bergeron's intelligence and defensive play helped their offensive totals as well. I don't think that either is much above the other as a goal scorer, but Kopitar is better offensively in general.

 

[wetcoast]

I don't know. Kopitar is an excellent defensive forward, but Bergeron was a generational defensive forward. He was off the charts. One of the very few difference makers who was noticeable to almost anyone and not just those with a scout's eye.

Think of Guy Charbonneau and why he was a more memorable and significant player, and why he makes more sense as a hipster HHOF pick than dozens of other forwards who were merely good/great defensively and somewhat better offensively then Carbo: guys like Muller, Linden, Ridley.... I dunno, Corson, Kisio, Steen, Gustafsson, Khristich, Brent Sutter, Damphousse, Troy Murray...

If you were to just give these guys ratings out of 10 offensively and defensively, and add them up, you might come to the conclusion that they were much better than Carbo. But he was the kind of guy who breaks that kind of rating system. A 10 defensively wouldn't do him justice. There's no way to account for the fact the he was special. He was uniquely impactful defensively.

And to me, that's Bergeron too. I don't think you can just say "kopitar's offensive edge is bigger than Bergeron's defensive edge" so casually. It downplays Bergeron's defensive edge. Kopitar was not "special " offensively, he was a top 20 kind of guy.

I agree with the intent of this post but I have to wonder how much more of an actual greater impact a generational defensive forward is than just an excellent defensive forward and better offensive one?

I think goalies and Dmen have more impact defensively than forwards and Bergeron didn't play with slouches in that department and Boston plays a good system that amplifies Bergeron's' strengths.

Now Bergeron might be better than Kopiatr but it's really close for me and I would take a real long look at Kopitar.

I also wonder how Barkov is going to be ranked all time with these 2 guys when it's all said and done.

 

[BraveCanadian]

It's a tough one but I think that Kopitar was better offensively to a degree that the numbers people are posting doesn't really show. I feel like a lot of the time he didn't have much to work with in comparison to Bergeron. Generally Kopitar has been the man for LA. So I think Kopitar is a better overall player to build around for example. Plus you can't teach size.

I might answer differently next time though.

 

[JackSlater]

I agree with the intent of this post but I have to wonder how much more of an actual greater impact a generational defensive forward is than just an excellent defensive forward and better offensive one?

I think goalies and Dmen have more impact defensively than forwards and Bergeron didn't play with slouches in that department and Boston plays a good system that amplifies Bergeron's' strengths.

Now Bergeron might be better than Kopiatr but it's really close for me and I would take a real long look at Kopitar.

I also wonder how Barkov is going to be ranked all time with these 2 guys when it's all said and done.

From around just before 2010 to now I view a quadrumvirate of Bergeron, Kopitar, Barkov, and Toews, followed by a triumvirate of O'Reilly, Couturier, and Kesler in terms of the best two way centres of the era. Not sure how they should be ranked within those groups. Mike Richards would have been in the second group if not for... stuff. I hold Datsyuk and Zetterberg separate for some reason, maybe because I followed them more closely and that they are a bit older than the others.

 

[MadLuke]

Bergeron in his prime missed 11 total games over 8 seasons (2010-2017).

142 points in 129 games 32-33 years old Bergeron was not in his prime and 22-23 would not have been if not for the injury ?

If we mean roll the dice at the draft ok, I had more how who do you build around if they have the career they had.

 

[BraveCanadian]

142 points in 129 games 32-33 years old Bergeron was not in his prime and 22-23 would not have been if not for the injury ?

I think the better offensive seasons had a lot more to do with a coaching change and better offensive players surrounding than Bergeron himself, though. (imo)

The whole team surged offensively at that time.

 

[MadLuke]

I think the better offensive seasons had a lot more to do with a coaching change and better offensive players surrounding than Bergeron himself, though. (imo)

The whole team surged offensively at that time.

Perfection line, nhl scoring going up, a lot of factor helped, not saying he peaked post 30, but not in his prime anymore ? It seem to me someone defined his prime to be the windows in which Bergeron do not miss many games and then say he did not miss many games in his prime.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

From around just before 2010 to now I view a quadrumvirate of Bergeron, Kopitar, Barkov, and Toews, followed by a triumvirate of O'Reilly, Couturier, and Kesler in terms of the best two way centres of the era. Not sure how they should be ranked within those groups. Mike Richards would have been in the second group if not for... stuff. I hold Datsyuk and Zetterberg separate for some reason, maybe because I followed them more closely and that they are a bit older than the others.

Bergeron, Kopitar and Toews have been "too close to call" for a while now.

Pretty sure no one has seen a lot of each one to be able to make a more accurate assessment.

But I'd bet if there was someone who did, they'd say too close to call also.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I routinely refer to Barkov as "Kopitar East". So, that parallel is easy to draw for me. I think Barkov can be a bit better. But it's close...

 

[Midnight Judges]

For a long time I thought Kopitar was not getting his due. Bergeron got lots of press while Kopitar played a similar role at times but was under the radar. Probably because the Bruins were a better team for the past decade.

Anyway, it's a good question IMO.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Bergeron, Kopitar and Toews have been "too close to call" for a while now.

Pretty sure no one has seen a lot of each one to be able to make a more accurate assessment.

But I'd bet if there was someone who did, they'd say too close to call also.

Bergeron and Kopitar are close, but from an all time standpoint I do think Toews is clearly last.

He might have peaked the highest, but he has by far the worst longevity. And his peak was short and 2012-2014 Keith might be the best support any of them got on the blueline.

Kopitar had help at his best, but carving out strong offensive numbers with the elite defensive play on middling Kings teams (2016-now) is really impressive.

 

[MadLuke]

Keith might be the best support any of them got on the blueline.

Not sure the gap with peak Doughty is large enough for this to matter much (and prime Chara was no slough has well), the might in that sentence did capture that very well.

 

[Hobnobs]

I have to take Kopitar. The gap defensively is not as big as some peeps are trying to make it out to be and he's better offensively and physically.

Bergeron is better at faceoffs.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Bergeron and Kopitar are close, but from an all time standpoint I do think Toews is clearly last.

He might have peaked the highest, but he has by far the worst longevity. And his peak was short and 2012-2014 Keith might be the best support any of them got on the blueline.

Kopitar had help at his best, but carving out strong offensive numbers with the elite defensive play on middling Kings teams (2016-now) is really impressive.

Bergeron and Toews have remarkably close numbers.

Per 82 games:

Toews 28-39-67

Bergeron 28-38-66

Toews was also better offensively in the playoffs. Being a captain at age 20 and winning 3 Cups helps his case also.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Bergeron for me. He was better defensively and I'd call them even offensively with maybe a small advantage Kopitar. It gets lost to time how restrictive Bergeron's usage was in his prime under Julien.

2010-2015 is fair to call each of their peaks:

	Bergeron	Kopitar
ES Points	245	255
ES PPG	0.56	0.57
Avg O-Zone %	45%	55%
Avg PP TOI	2:30	3:30
Avg TOI	18:23	20:57

I don't know. Kopitar is an excellent defensive forward, but Bergeron was a generational defensive forward. He was off the charts. One of the very few difference makers who was noticeable to almost anyone and not just those with a scout's eye.

Think of Guy Charbonneau and why he was a more memorable and significant player, and why he makes more sense as a hipster HHOF pick than dozens of other forwards who were merely good/great defensively and somewhat better offensively then Carbo: guys like Muller, Linden, Ridley.... I dunno, Corson, Kisio, Steen, Gustafsson, Khristich, Brent Sutter, Damphousse, Troy Murray...

If you were to just give these guys ratings out of 10 offensively and defensively, and add them up, you might come to the conclusion that they were much better than Carbo. But he was the kind of guy who breaks that kind of rating system. A 10 defensively wouldn't do him justice. There's no way to account for the fact the he was special. He was uniquely impactful defensively.

And to me, that's Bergeron too. I don't think you can just say "kopitar's offensive edge is bigger than Bergeron's defensive edge" so casually. It downplays Bergeron's defensive edge. Kopitar was not "special " offensively, he was a top 20 kind of guy.

i agree with the main methodological point here. it’s why i always say you can’t just add up a guy who is an 7 offensively and 7 defensively (say, antonio davis) and pretend that’s better than dennis rodman’s 0 offense and 10 defence.

that said, i feel like kopitar was stifled offensively through much of his career. i think he really was a sundin-level offensive guy, but he played for darryl sutter. consider that in his entire eighteen year career there are only three seasons he didn’t lead the kings in scoring: his rookie year, this last year, and one year in the middle (his 11th year in the league). and in his 12th year, sutter leaves and kopitar bounces back to score his career high 92 pts, which happens to be his only top ten.

it’s not as special as bergeron was defensively, it’s not even as special as he himself was defensively, but he was a franchise level offensive center who also was selke calibre defensively. he led the playoffs in scoring twice. i have a lot of time for specialists, and bergeron was very good offensively for a primarily defensive guy, but i think the comparison is really more in the neighbourhood of fedorov vs keon than carbonneau vs [insert B+ two-way center]. which is to say, if we’re judging by the HOH centers list, too close to call.

and as for bergeron’s offensive ability, as i said, very good offensively for his role. and yes, he must have been stifled by julien in his prime. but i think to most of our eyes, he just didn’t look nearly as *talented* on the offensive end as kopitar did. and so i think offensive ceiling was a lot lower.

here’s some food for thought:

kopitar 2007 to 2011 (his pre-sutter years): 393 games, 358 pts, 75 pts/game
bergeron 2004 to 2011 (his pre-selke years, four years with julien): 456 games, 337 pts, 61 pts/game

kopitar 2012 to 2017 (his objective peak, all sutter years): 447 games, 378 pts, 69 pts/game
bergeron 2012 to 2017 (objective peak, all julien years): 443 games, 334 pts, 62 pts/game

kopitar 2018 to 2023 (post-sutter years): 452 games, 405 pts, 74 pts/game
bergeron 2018 to 2023 (post-julien years): 395 games, 369 pts, 77 pts/game

	years	games	pts	pts/game	notes
kopitar	2007–11	393	358	75	pre-sutter
bergeron	2004–11	456	337	61	four julien years, pre-selke
kopitar	2012–17	447	378	69	sutter years, objective peak
bergeron	2012–17	443	334	62	julien years, objective peak
kopitar	2018–23	452	405	74	post-sutter
bergeron	2018–23	395	369	77	post-julien

so there are several ways to parse the post-sutter/julien stretches of these guys’ careers, where bergeron catches up and passes kopitar in pts/game average. maybe julien was stifling bergeron more than kopitar, especially considering that bergeron is two years older and should be slowing down rather than peaking offensively. but maybe what we’re really looking at is the aging/hollowing out of LA’s core post-sutter. before kempe emerges in 2022, kopitar spent five full seasons with washed up dustin brown and alex iafallo as his regular wingers. he led the kings in scoring in every single one of those seasons of course.

whereas bergeron is outscored by both of his all-star wingers, usually by massive margins, in all but one post-julien season (when he tied pastrnak, who missed six more games than he did, and was 21 pts behind marchand). so i think a very reasonable argument could be made that their linemate situations were very very different and played a big role here.

 

[GMR]

Bergeron and Toews have remarkably close numbers.

Per 82 games:

Toews 28-39-67

Bergeron 28-38-66

Toews was also better offensively in the playoffs. Being a captain at age 20 and winning 3 Cups helps his case also.

When Bergeron hits the top 100 all-time, then you can begin comparing him to Toews.