Who to sign to change the DNA?

[banks]

Let Marner and Tavares walk. Buy-out Rielly. Trade Nylander for a legit top-pair defender. Trade Matthews for a blue-chip prospect and picks.

Experiment this season with cast-offs and reclamation projects. Take 1 year cap dumps, claim 1 year guys on waivers. See if anything sticks. Then next season sign McDavid and Malkin.

Job done.

 

[Dough72]

Well...Maybe the architect of the club, Bill Zito, had an inkling when he acquired them that they might?

where was his inkling every other year of his career? Why did he wait around until this season? No this is once-in-a-liftetime levels of dumb luck.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

No but Boston went from best team ever to no playoffs in 2 seasons. This team will implode in 2 seasons, they are old with almost no youth, no picks and one prospect.

I didn't say those moves worked just that they weren't teardown moves

 

[ITM]

uh you kind of parsed out the entire argument? But you're probably right, bringing in mid level castoffs and they suddenly produce like Draisaitl and Macdavid is totally normal. Leafs should just go with that strategy.

Nnnooo, that word isn't parsed - its dismantled. Just like Macdavid is more commonly known as McDavid. And the laughing emoji you're quoting to use against my comment was actually ridiculing yours; Subtle differences in that "Let's eat, Grandpa - Let's eat Grandpa!" sort of distinction you might want to grok for future exchanges.

The argument is "Nobody" vs Somebody. That Somebody - Bill Zito - parsed your argument before you got up this morning.

And if Bennet and Marchand (competing for the Conn Smythe) are castoffs, we need a backchannel to Zito for consultation to see whatever master list he's compiled, mindful he can't acquire them all. So yes: Toronto should go with a strategy with a manageable cap foundation and selectively use primary assets to augment that foundation.

 

[Tak7]

Well...Maybe the architect of the club, Bill Zito, had an inkling when he acquired them that they might?

He also bought low / mined under-valued players like Reinhart, Bennett, Mikkola, and Nate Schmidt.

He's found money on guys like Forsling, Kulikov, and Rodriguez.

Eventually, when you do it as many times as Zito has, it stops being "dumb luck" and starts becoming a product of really smart talent evaluation and pro scouting work.

 

[ToneDog]

Let Marner and Tavares walk. Buy-out Rielly. Trade Nylander for a legit top-pair defender. Trade Matthews for a blue-chip prospect and picks.

Experiment this season with cast-offs and reclamation projects. Take 1 year cap dumps, claim 1 year guys on waivers. See if anything sticks. Then next season sign McDavid and Malkin.

Job done.

If I had inside info that McDavid wanted to come home, I'd be in but I doubt he'll come here after they blow it up. You need to keep at least one of 34 and 88 to play with McDavid. Playing with 97 would wake 34 and 88 up IMO. Those 3 amigos have a better chance of winning you a SC than the our 3 stooges.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

It makes sense to trade Matthews if you no longer believe he can win you a cup. We will see that with Marner and he is leaving for cap space. We saw that with DeRozen, McGriff and Fernandez and those trades won championships. If you can get a bluechip #1C and #1D in return, why not after 9 playoff failures and the amount of cap he is taking up? What have you seen in 11 playoff series that makes you confident that he can win you a Cup?

If they fail in the next 3 years, they will potentially be facing a 5+ year drought. Better to sell high than to end up having to sell a lemon for pennies on the dollar.

Yzerman didn't win until he was 31 or 32.

Ovechkin was around the same age.

They weren't traded because that would have been ridiculous, and yes I know Yzerman was almost traded to Ottawa but he wasn't.

Because you DO NOT trade franchise centers.

 

[ToneDog]

He also bought low / mined under-valued players like Reinhart, Bennett, Mikkola, and Nate Schmidt.

He's found money on guys like Forsling, Kulikov, and Rodriguez.

Eventually, when you do it as many times as Zito has, it stops being "dumb luck" and starts becoming a product of really smart talent evaluation and pro scouting work.

He gambled on Jones and Marchand. Tre gambled on Laughon and Carlo. The guy is a King Midas.

 

[Tak7]

He gambled on Jones and Marchand. Tre gambled on Laughon and Carlo. The guy is a King Midas.

Seth Jones was really the only gamble in that group. Big ticket with lots of term.

But when you have absolute confidence in your pro scouting work, and in your coaching structure allows players to join a system that allows them to succeed, all of a sudden Seth Jones looks like one of the best players in these playoffs and nothing like the one who struggled in Columbus and Chicago.

 

[darrylsittler27]

You wasted 1.2 million in Cap space.

Holmberg brought NOTHING this season

I'm not giving Tavares 5 years. This team will implode in 2 seasons.

 

[ToneDog]

Yzerman didn't win until he was 31 or 32.

Ovechkin was around the same age.

They weren't traded because that would have been ridiculous, and yes I know Yzerman was almost traded to Ottawa but he wasn't.

Because you DO NOT trade franchise centers.

Sure but wake me up when they bring in Federov, Lidstrom, Shannahan, Larionov, Konstantinov etc. We have virtually nothing in the pipeline and no firsts for the next 3 years. Gambling that 34 will eventually win a cup because it took Yzerman and OV 12 years is risky. On the flip side you have Jumbo and Marleau and they had more playoff success that 34 has ever had.

 

[darrylsittler27]

It makes sense to trade Matthews if you no longer believe he can win you a cup. We will see that with Marner and he is leaving for cap space. We saw that with DeRozen, McGriff and Fernandez and those trades won championships. If you can get a bluechip #1C and #1D in return, why not after 9 playoff failures and the amount of cap he is taking up? What have you seen in 11 playoff series that makes you confident that he can win you a Cup?

If they fail in the next 3 years, they will potentially be facing a 5+ year drought. Better to sell high than to end up having to sell a lemon for pennies on the dollar.

Mathews for Cellebrini and a first and I'm out. Mathews is neither Yzerman nor Ovi and our Gm followed in Dubas shoes trading Grebs and a first for Laughton.

 

[FerrisRox]

If you trade Matthews, you are not looking to immediately get better. You are in teardown and rebuild mode unless you get real lucky with the Matthews return. This franchise would never do it. Can't upset the Bay Street suits paying for the platinum seat and overpriced food and alcohol.

I don't think thats true at all.

The Leafs could trade Matthews for a 3rd round pick tomorrow and send Nylander away from a 37 year old fifth defenseman and the arena would be sold out all of next season.

No team in the league should have less concerns about ticket sales during a rebuild than the Maple Leafs.

I've said it before, if the Leafs swapped rosters with the Marlies tomorrow it wouldn't make any difference at all to their ticket sales.

 

[FerrisRox]

Even if they wanted to, and no team goes from winning the division to teardown mode in 1 season that does not exist.

Do the New York Rangers exist?

They won their division in 2023-24, and the following season, they traded away their captain Jacob Trouba, they shipped out 2019 2nd overall pick Kaapo Kakko, they traded 2022 50-goal man Chris Kreider and they traded depth scoring winger Rielly Smith.

I think you are largely overrating the level anybody in management cares about winning a division. Beyond the home ice advantage, who cares?

If you don't think your group is good enough to win it all, you tear it down. Whether you won a division or not means nothing.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Do the New York Rangers exist?

They won their division in 2023-24, and the following season, they traded away their captain Jacob Trouba, they shipped out 2019 2nd overall pick Kaapo Kakko, they traded 2022 50-goal man Chris Kreider and they traded depth scoring winger Rielly Smith.

I think you are largely overrating the level anybody in management cares about winning a division. Beyond the home ice advantage, who cares?

If you don't think your group is good enough to win it all, you tear it down. Whether you won a division or not means nothing.

They also brought in JT Miller and still have Panarnin, Fox, Shestrkin, Zibaneajad etc.

I don't think you know what a teardown is.

 

[Trapper]

We know just having a franchise center isn't a guarantee of anything.
We also know you can win without a franchise center.

What may be up for debate is what constitutes a franchise center?
Is it just points?

If we judge Bergeron's career by just points we're dismissing his 6 Selke's, Clancy and Messier Leadership awards.

Then it comes down to 2 things.
Individual and team.
What does your individual have beyond skill?
And will every core member on the team play that way?
You are either built with the pack mentality with skill or the all-star team that lacks intensity.

Scouts draft players because of skill.
Then it’s up to the management to watch those picks evolve and determines if they have the will. If not, they are moved.

So if you were management, would you have changed this core a few years ago?

 

[FerrisRox]

Yzerman didn't win until he was 31 or 32.

Ovechkin was around the same age.

They weren't traded because that would have been ridiculous, and yes I know Yzerman was almost traded to Ottawa but he wasn't.

Because you DO NOT trade franchise centers.

I'm not advocating for the Leafs trading Matthews, but your example doesn't make a lot of sense.

Yzerman didn't fail year after year to elevate his game before the Red Wings finally won.

In fact, Yzerman was producing at over a point-a-game in the post season *before* the Wings won a Cup and the team had advanced to the 1995 Stanley Cup Final as team. The year before the Red Wings won it all in 1997, Yzerman put up 20 points in the 1996 playoffs.

Matthews, on the other hand, has only once in his entire career produced at over a point a game in the post season.

There is absolutely no comparison between Auston Matthews in the post-season and Steve Yzerman. Zero. None. Fairytale.

 

[Stephen]

Who is the Panthers' franchise center?

Panthers might have 2 franchise centers. I think Lundell has unlimited upside. He just goes up against any matchup and comes out ahead. He’s something special in the Bergeron mold.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

I'm not advocating for the Leafs trading Matthews, but your example doesn't make a lot of sense.

Yzerman didn't fail year after year to elevate his game before the Red Wings finally won.

In fact, Yzerman was producing at over a point-a-game in the post season *before* the Wings won a Cup and the team had advanced to the 1995 Stanley Cup Final as team. The year before the Red Wings won it all in 1997, Yzerman put up 20 points in the 1996 playoffs.

Matthews, on the other hand, has only once in his entire career produced at over a point a game in the post season.

There is absolutely no comparison between Auston Matthews in the post-season and Steve Yzerman. Zero. None. Fairytale.

You missed the point entirely, which isn't surprising because you are a habs fan, you are not a leaf fan, you do not watch the Leafs outside of the 4 or 5 times they play Montreal every season so I can't expect you to understand my point.

 

[Stephen]

I'm not advocating for the Leafs trading Matthews, but your example doesn't make a lot of sense.

Yzerman didn't fail year after year to elevate his game before the Red Wings finally won.

In fact, Yzerman was producing at over a point-a-game in the post season *before* the Wings won a Cup and the team had advanced to the 1995 Stanley Cup Final as team. The year before the Red Wings won it all in 1997, Yzerman put up 20 points in the 1996 playoffs.

Matthews, on the other hand, has only once in his entire career produced at over a point a game in the post season.

There is absolutely no comparison between Auston Matthews in the post-season and Steve Yzerman. Zero. None. Fairytale.

There’s also a logical fallacy that suggests the failure/redemption of others predicts future success of the Leafs guys. Dubas and Shanahan had their heads screwed on wrong with the “inevitability” of success like they could just get their on cruise control.

 

[Trapper]

Panthers might have 2 franchise centers. I think Lundell has unlimited upside. He just goes up against any matchup and comes out ahead. He’s something special in the Bergeron mold.

Most fans are blinded by the shiny stars. They have to look better and you need to be able to win an argument against another fan base that your player is better.
Instead of just being skilled and able to get the job done (even if they put up 20 less points) regardless if Mitch Marner looks fancier than him in the regular season.

 

[ITM]

He also bought low / mined under-valued players like Reinhart, Bennett, Mikkola, and Nate Schmidt.

He's found money on guys like Forsling, Kulikov, and Rodriguez.

Eventually, when you do it as many times as Zito has, it stops being "dumb luck" and starts becoming a product of really smart talent evaluation and pro scouting work.

Precisely.

 

[Discoverer]

I'm not advocating for the Leafs trading Matthews, but your example doesn't make a lot of sense.

Yzerman didn't fail year after year to elevate his game before the Red Wings finally won.

In fact, Yzerman was producing at over a point-a-game in the post season *before* the Wings won a Cup and the team had advanced to the 1995 Stanley Cup Final as team. The year before the Red Wings won it all in 1997, Yzerman put up 20 points in the 1996 playoffs.

Matthews, on the other hand, has only once in his entire career produced at over a point a game in the post season.

There is absolutely no comparison between Auston Matthews in the post-season and Steve Yzerman. Zero. None. Fairytale.

Yzerman scoring over a point per game in the playoffs really isn't particularly impressive considering the era we're talking about. Before winning his first Cup, he averaged 86 points per 82 games in the playoffs while averaging 109 in the regular season. That's a 21% decline in production... Matthews's 25% drop is worse, but they're absolutely comparable.

 

[FerrisRox]

You missed the point entirely, which isn't surprising because you are a habs fan, you are not a leaf fan, you do not watch the Leafs outside of the 4 or 5 times they play Montreal every season so I can't expect you to understand my point.

I saw 19 games, live and in person, at the Scotiabank Arena last season.

Want to try that nonsense again?

Please, tell us all what the point was. You brought up Steve Yzerman, an accomplished playoff performer who had already guided his team to the Stanley Cup Final, before he won it all in 1997 as if he was a comparable to Auston Matthews right now.

So instead of attacking me, respond to the actual post: Tell me what the point was that I missed entirely?

 

[ITM]

Yzerman scoring over a point per game in the playoffs really isn't particularly impressive considering the era we're talking about. Before winning his first Cup, he averaged 86 points per 82 games in the playoffs while averaging 109 in the regular season. That's a 21% decline in production... Matthews's 25% drop is worse, but they're absolutely comparable.

I think there’s a fundamental point being missed here: Yzerman elected to change his game to benefit the team’s playoffs success. He became a better two-way player. So while it took sometime to translate to team success, Yzerman changed his game deliberately.

That’s doesn’t look like what’s happened with Matthews.