Who should have won the Hart in 2018?

[Albatros]

Geno, Giroux, or MacKinnon would have all been more worthy than the actual winner.


It is harder to outscore Crosby than an 18 years old Hischier dude.

Malkin also outscored and outpaced Hall.

The Hart Memorial Trophy is an annual award given "to the player adjudged to be the most valuable to his team."

 

[Regal]

The Hart Memorial Trophy is an annual award given "to the player adjudged to be the most valuable to his team."

And a team is more than your best two teammates

 

[Video Nasty]

I never said anything about McDavid needing to outplay the Oilers suck, thanks. People can agree on one point and not believe everything else being said. But garbage time points are most definitely a thing though and it is a knock for a season where he wasn’t near the top for most of the year and didn’t end up much ahead of the pack in scoring. He was hurt by the team getting few PPs and having an unusually low PP%, and if those were normalized he would have stood out from the pack. But that didn’t happen and while I do think he was the best player I don’t know if he had the best or most outstanding season, regardless of value to team.

It’s an argument you’ve made in the past that conjured to the present when you said you didn’t like his season at all.

And remember, while I would have picked McDavid myself, I’ve also frequently defended the selection Hall over MacKinnon and illustrated in this thread why the people saying Giroux have a good case too.

If this is possibly considered McDavid’s worst season so far, he’s doing just fine and needs little to no defense unlike the Crosby what if whiners.

 

[JaegerDice]

I’d have given it to Mackinnon, but Hall is a deserving winner.

 

[Regal]

It’s an argument you’ve made in the past that conjured to the present when you said you didn’t like his season at all.

And remember, while I would have picked McDavid myself, I’ve also frequently defended the selection Hall over MacKinnon and illustrated in this thread why the people saying Giroux have a good case too.

If this is possibly considered McDavid’s worst season so far, he’s doing just fine and needs little to no defense unlike the Crosby what if whiners.

I’m not sure what argument you’re referring to, but I don’t believe I’ve ever said the Oilers struggles should be placed on McDavid, only that his first half wasn’t as good as you’d have hoped from him, and second half surges when the games don’t matter have a slight asterisk. I have argued in the past that missing the playoffs should probably preclude someone from the Hart because his value didn’t actually get the team anywhere, but that’s different than putting the blame on the player in question. Perhaps you’re thinking of Daver.

 

[Wings4Life]

McDavid, Malkin, MacKinnon, and Kucherov all had better seasons than Taylor Hall, and were the best players on their respective teams that year. All of them (bar McDavid, since he didn't qualify for the playoffs) would've been good picks for the Hart, IMO.

In other words Malkin 98, Kessel 92, Crosby 89 points.

Meanwhile in New Jersey we have Hall 93, Hischier 52, Palmieri 44 points.

So if Hischier and Palmieri had 25 points and Hall had 65, you'd give the Hart Trophy to a 65 point player? I never bought this type of argument for league MVP.

 

[Albatros]

McDavid, Malkin, MacKinnon, and Kucherov all had better seasons than Taylor Hall, and were the best players on their respective teams that year. All of them (bar McDavid, since he didn't qualify for the playoffs) would've been good picks for the Hart, IMO.


So if Hischier and Palmieri had 25 points and Hall had 65, you'd give the Hart Trophy to a 65 point player? I never bought this type of argument for league MVP.

If that took them to the playoffs, maybe. The trophy is to the player most valuable to his team. A star ensemble may oftentimes have several better individuals but their individual value to the team overall can still be lower.

 

[Wings4Life]

If that took them to the playoffs, maybe.

There is no chance that player would even be a finalist. Hence, your criteria is off.

 

[Regal]

If that took them to the playoffs, maybe. The trophy is to the player most valuable to his team. A star ensemble may oftentimes have several better individuals but their individual value to the team overall can still be lower.

Again though, the difference between a player and the second best or third best teammate is a poor way to judge relative value. If a player drags a team with awful depth to the playoffs, but has one star teammate, he’s not necessarily lesser value to his team than another star player who doesn’t have a star teammate but his team has the best depth in the league.

 

[Pablo El Perro]

Just let Hall have this one.

 

[Felidae]

"His own teammates"

Good one.

Malkin outscored some guy named Sidney Crosby by 9 points, despite Malkin playing 4 less games, which is a tremendous feat in itself. Malkin carried Kessel that year and outscored him by 8 goals and 6 points, despite playing 4 less games than him as well.

Let's not overstate Malkin putproducing Crosby though.

This is a version of Crosby thats at the tail end of his prime. He finished 10th in points in 2017-18. At the time, that was the worst season of his career in terms of point and PPG placement (not counting injured seasons where he was dominating in terms of points per game)

And to this day, it remains one of the weaker seasons of his career.

Either way, I really don't see an argument for Malkin being a hart finalist. McDavid and Mackinnon beat him in actual production and per game numbers while the players just below him were much better two way players (Giroux, Kopitar)

 

[daver]

So if Hischier and Palmieri had 25 points and Hall had 65, you'd give the Hart Trophy to a 65 point player? I never bought this type of argument for league MVP.

I never bought the argument that you make up a completely different scenario than what actually happened then dismiss it.

Hall was marginally outproduced by a few players; that he did that with what seems to be less offensive support on his team is significant.

That being said, I liked Mac for Hart but recognize there wasn't really a clear standout that year including McDavid who turned it up after his team's chances to make the playoffs were effectively gone.

 

[daver]

The Hart Memorial Trophy is an annual award given "to the player adjudged to be the most valuable to his team."

The best player, or the player who had the best season, brings the most value.

Like it or not, fair or not, making the playoffs is a big part of the equation.

 

[bobholly39]

Let's not overstate Malkin putproducing Crosby though.

This is a version of Crosby thats at the tail end of his prime. He finished 10th in points in 2017-18. At the time, that was the worst season of his career in terms of point and PPG placement (not counting injured seasons where he was dominating in terms of points per game)

And to this day, it remains one of the weaker seasons of his career.

Either way, I really don't see an argument for Malkin being a hart finalist. McDavid and Mackinnon beat him in actual production and per game numbers while the players just below him were much better two way players (Giroux, Kopitar)

I actually like this season for Crosby. He changed around ~2015-2016, when he had that horrible start, but it culminated in a cup/smythe/hart finalist by the end.

In 2017-2018 - Pens, back to back champs, are stumbling big-time and at risk of missing playoffs ~halfway into season. Malkin is out injured for a few games...Crosby puts the team on his back and helps turn season around, with a few huge multi-point games in successions that starts a big win streak. Malkin eventually returns - he gets hot and both him and Crosby go on a run...and eventually, Pens are safely back in playoff spot, Crosby does slow down. Malkin finishes season stronger...but in meantime Pens safely make playoffs, and Crosby is a beast through 2 rounds of playoffs.

In 2016-2017 - all year long Crosby/McDavid was a tight race for Ross (Crosby missed ~5 games to injury at start of season, but led in ppg most of the way and seemed likely to catch McDavid) - but then at the very end of season slows down (his team safely in playoffs) and McDavid goes off and wins the Ross....and Crosby enters playoffs fresh, wins the smythe.

Crosby finished high in scoring races but hasn't been a legitimate threat to win the Ross since 2017-2018. But in almost every year since - there's a time ~mid-year where Pens are stubmling big time, and Crosby goes on a bender scoring as much as league leaders for a ~month or so and helps save Penguins seasons and bring them back to playoffs. He may not be winning Rosses - but he's still providing a lot of value to his team. In a thread about "hart" - I don't think it's fair to discard his season too quickly as a bad season.

Obviously not saying Crosby should have won, nor been anywhere near the Hart in 2017-2018 - I'm just saying I don't dislike his season as much as others.

To me - 2017-2018 Hart should have been 1. Kucherov 2. MacKinnon - I'd probably be ok with Hall at #3.

 

[bobholly39]

If that took them to the playoffs, maybe. The trophy is to the player most valuable to his team. A star ensemble may oftentimes have several better individuals but their individual value to the team overall can still be lower.

By your logic - Carey Price should have won the Hart in the 2021-2022 season. And in the 2016-2017 season too.

2016-2017 - he plays ~ 1 month, best player/goalie in league, Habs in #1 in league. Gets injured, misses rest of season - Habs end up last place. Most valuable player in the league to his team? Price.

2021-2022 season. Habs carries a team that has no business even being in the playoffs to the Cup Finals in 2021 playoffs. Then - misses 95% of the year in 2021-2022 to injury, and Habs are the worst team in the league again - from cup finalist to last place. Most valuable player to his team in the league? Carey Price.

Obviously - that's not how Hart is awarded. Hart isn't about "who is the most valuable player to his team above #2 on the team". A better definition for hart might be "Who had a ~top 5 or so season league-wide who happened to also be the most valuable to his team".

If your season isn't ~top 5 - you won't win. That hypothetical ~65 point Hall never sniffs a hart. Hall as it was in 2017-2018 was a somewhat disputed pick because he wasn't all that close to league leaders. In my opinion, he had a top 10 season in league, but maybe just outside of top 5.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

I would have given it to McDavid, playoffs or not…

Shocking

 

[Albatros]

By your logic - Carey Price should have won the Hart in the 2021-2022 season. And in the 2016-2017 season too.

2016-2017 - he plays ~ 1 month, best player/goalie in league, Habs in #1 in league. Gets injured, misses rest of season - Habs end up last place. Most valuable player in the league to his team? Price.

2021-2022 season. Habs carries a team that has no business even being in the playoffs to the Cup Finals in 2021 playoffs. Then - misses 95% of the year in 2021-2022 to injury, and Habs are the worst team in the league again - from cup finalist to last place. Most valuable player to his team in the league? Carey Price.

Obviously - that's not how Hart is awarded. Hart isn't about "who is the most valuable player to his team above #2 on the team". A better definition for hart might be "Who had a ~top 5 or so season league-wide who happened to also be the most valuable to his team".

If your season isn't ~top 5 - you won't win. That hypothetical ~65 point Hall never sniffs a hart. Hall as it was in 2017-2018 was a somewhat disputed pick because he wasn't all that close to league leaders. In my opinion, he had a top 10 season in league, but maybe just outside of top 5.

Carey Price played 5 games in 2021/22, won one and lost four, save percentage .878, he was not a top 500 Hart candidate.

 

[bobholly39]

Carey Price played 5 games in 2021/22, won one and lost four, save percentage .878, he was not a top 500 Hart candidate.

Glad you agree with me. Now stop claiming 65 point players should win a hart trophy.

 

[Albatros]

Glad you agree with me. Now stop claiming 65 point players should win a hart trophy.

If they somehow take their team to success with that then absolutely they should. Iginla was pretty worthy with 73 points in '04 and finished second. Someone only needs to best that and I would applaud them if they do.

 

[Crow]

Hall
Kopitar
Mackinnon
Giroux
McDavid
Malkin

It’s tight. Lots of deserving candidates but Hall put his team on his back.

 

[abo9]

Hall was fully deserving of the award that year. It could be argued that the choice wasn't clear, but idk if anyone else "should" have won it over him.

Look at that roster, it was atrocious.

If there was one year where to show that the Hart and Ross weren't the same trophy, that was the year.

I think Hall subsequently not keeping up the superstardom play make some people doibt of his achievement in that single year ?

 

[Golden_Jet]

McDavid, Malkin, MacKinnon, and Kucherov all had better seasons than Taylor Hall, and were the best players on their respective teams that year. All of them (bar McDavid, since he didn't qualify for the playoffs) would've been good picks for the Hart, IMO.


So if Hischier and Palmieri had 25 points and Hall had 65, you'd give the Hart Trophy to a 65 point player? I never bought this type of argument for league MVP.

That’s the definition of the trophy, most valuable to his team.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Kopitar was my pick at the time. Carried the offense and was voted the best defensive forward.

 

[Video Nasty]

Shocking

“Oh, why don’t you go find a wall socket and stick your tongue in it. That’ll give you a charge.”

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Just a reminder how shitty those NJ teams were both before and after that single season by Hall. He instilled a confidence in the team that we could win any game.

And gifted you a boatload of #1 picks...his true legacy, the lottery goat