Who is the greater player: Crosby or Beliveau

[Sasha Orlov]

There is literally no argument for Beliveau here

 

[Golden_Jet]

You can't pick and choose which provinces to include. I agree BC produces more talent now compared to Beliveau's era, but Quebec produces far less. The difference from Quebec is enormous. (There are two HOF skaters from Quebec who played 200+ games during Crosby's era - Bergeron and St. Louis. In Beliveau's era, you have both Richard bothers, Geoffrion, Keon, Lemaire, Moore, Ratalle, Gilbert, Cournoyer, Harvey, Pilote, Pronovost, Laperriere, Savard). Fine, adjust for Crosby facing a few more players from BC. But then adjust for Beliveau facing far more talent from Quebec. If want to adjust, then adjust for both players, otherwise you're just trying to prop up Crosby.

The conclusion that Crosby would have led the league in scoring ten years in a row is (to put it mildly) optimistic. Nobody in NHL history did that - not even Gretzky. Is Crosby better than Gretzky now?

"Nowhere close to being the same caliber of player". Beliveau is in the top ten on any credible list that I've seen (and usually closer to #5 than #10). If you want to rank Crosby ahead, that's fine. But saying that they're not the same calibre of playing is implying that Crosby is at the Gretzky/Orr level, and he obviously isn't.

Ya poster makes no sense with that take lol. Terrible analogy really.
It is from a Penguins fan, so not shocking I guess.

 

[Bouboumaster]

Béliveau is top 10 all time
Crosby is my #5

Béliveau had top compete with some of the greatest player ever, and was never far behind (he was a comtemporary of Maurice Richard, Bobby Hull, Howe and Orr
Crosby was THE guy for almost 15 years, with only Ovechkin in his rear mirror

Béliveau, obviously, had much, much, much more success, team wise, being part of some of the greatest teams ever, the guy had 10 Stanley Cup as a player
Crosby has some cups too

Both of them are perceived as some of the greatest team captains ever. Béliveau is the greatest gentleman to ever played the game, Crosby is up there

Overall, two legends, but edge to Crosby

 

[Coffee]

Béliveau is top 10 all time
Crosby is my #5

Béliveau had top compete with some of the greatest player ever, and was never far behind (he was a comtemporary of Maurice Richard, Bobby Hull, Howe and Orr
Crosby was THE guy for almost 15 years, with only Ovechkin in his rear mirror

Béliveau, obviously, had much, much, much more success, team wise, being part of some of the greatest teams ever, the guy had 10 Stanley Cup as a player
Crosby has some cups too

Both of them are perceived as some of the greatest team captains ever. Béliveau is the greatest gentleman to ever played the game, Crosby is up there

Overall, two legends, but edge to Crosby

Frank Nighbor vs Kopitar

 

[Jack Spider]

They are both some of the greatest capatains in hockey. Similar junior hype. Great careers. Gentlemens. Let's wait to see Crosby's post-playing career.

 

[centipede2233]

Also factor in Crosby playing in a cap era, where you couldn’t have stacked dynasty teams like what Beliveau had

 

[Midnight Judges]

Béliveau is top 10 all time
Crosby is my #5

Béliveau had top compete with some of the greatest player ever, and was never far behind (he was a comtemporary of Maurice Richard, Bobby Hull, Howe and Orr
Crosby was THE guy for almost 15 years, with only Ovechkin in his rear mirror

Béliveau, obviously, had much, much, much more success, team wise, being part of some of the greatest teams ever, the guy had 10 Stanley Cup as a player
Crosby has some cups too

Both of them are perceived as some of the greatest team captains ever. Béliveau is the greatest gentleman to ever played the game, Crosby is up there

Overall, two legends, but edge to Crosby

Bobby Orr was born 16.5 years after Beliveau. They weren’t contemporaries in any meaningful way.

And no, Sidney Crosby was not THE guy for 15 years. Dude has 2 Harts which came in the only 2 seasons where he led the NhL in points. Ovechkin has 3 consecutive seasons that are all clearly better than Crosby’s best season.

 

[Bouboumaster]

Bobby Orr was born 16.5 years after Beliveau. They weren’t contemporaries in any meaningful way.

And no, Sidney Crosby was not THE guy for 15 years. Dude has 2 Harts which came in the only 2 seasons where he led the NhL in points. Ovechkin has 3 consecutive seasons that are all clearly better than Crosby’s best season.

Béliveau and Orr playerd against each other in the 70s

From the Day Crosby was drafted until forever, Crosby is > Ovechkin

Do a poll if you want. They're already countless that exist, and they all point in the same direction

 

[wetcoast]

Any pick that isn't qualified as being very close is not reasonable.

Both looked very good in the eras they played in.

They are close but Crosby is clearly ahead and it's extremely hard to state overwise and have it stand up to scrutiny.

 

[Nathaniel]

Crosby breaks his tie with Jean for top 10 point finishes 13 to 12
Crosby 1, 1, 2, 2, 3 ,3 ,3 ,3, 5, 6 ,10 ,10 ,10
Belivea1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 6, 8, 8, 9

 

[Nathaniel]

Bobby Orr was born 16.5 years after Beliveau. They weren’t contemporaries in any meaningful way.

And no, Sidney Crosby was not THE guy for 15 years. Dude has 2 Harts which came in the only 2 seasons where he led the NhL in points. Ovechkin has 3 consecutive seasons that are all clearly better than Crosby’s best season.

120>112 know? I thought thats the way it works around here

 

[TheLegend27]

120>112 know? I thought thats the way it works around here

Not when more than half are from the powerplay. Let’s admit that Crosby doesn’t have signature season most superstars have such as Kuch 2024, McDavid 2023, Ovi 2008 due to injuries. That doesn’t take away from his greatness of course.

 

[Nathaniel]

Not when more than half are from the powerplay. Let’s admit that Crosby doesn’t have signature season most superstars have such as Kuch 2024, McDavid 2023, Ovi 2008 due to injuries. That doesn’t take away from his greatness of course.

Na just a measley 17 point art ross win

 

[Video Nasty]

Crosby.

Unfortunately, I can take playing for stacked Montreal squads only so seriously.

Beliveau won less Harts, less Art Rosses, and led the league in goals the same number of times. I’m on here constantly battling against phantom hardware when it comes to Crosby, but I always give him as much credit as the opposing side can for his likeliness of winning 2010-2011 and 2012-2013 for at least 2 Harts, 2 Art Rosses, and 1 Lindsay—not a relevant trophy here since the Pearson was introduced during Beliveau’s final season.

Beliveau led his team in scoring just three times before the age of 32 and six times overall during the seventeen full seasons he played from 1954-1955 through 1970-1971.

I think Crosby passed him many years ago.

 

[Bouboumaster]

Crosby.

Unfortunately, I can take playing for stacked Montreal squads only so seriously.

Beliveau won less Harts, less Art Rosses, and led the league in goals the same number of times. I’m on here constantly battling against phantom hardware when it comes to Crosby, but I always give him as much credit as the opposing side can for his likeliness of winning 2010-2011 and 2012-2013 for at least 2 Harts, 2 Art Rosses, and 1 Lindsay—not a relevant trophy here since the Pearson was introduced during Beliveau’s final season.

Beliveau led his team in scoring just three times before the age of 32 and six times overall during the seventeen full seasons he played from 1954-1955 through 1970-1971.

I think Crosby passed him many years ago.

To be fair to Béliveau, he was usually the strongest player of those stacked teams, and he was in direct competition with some of the big four during his time (Howe and eventually Orr)
And if we're talking about "greatest" and not "best", Béliveau comes to the table and drop 10 Stanley Cup

Still would take Crosby, but it's not that far off

 

[hamzarocks]

Bobby Orr was born 16.5 years after Beliveau. They weren’t contemporaries in any meaningful way.

And no, Sidney Crosby was not THE guy for 15 years. Dude has 2 Harts which came in the only 2 seasons where he led the NhL in points. Ovechkin has 3 consecutive seasons that are all clearly better than Crosby’s best season.

Besides those 3 seasons OV is a non factor

Look at his scoring finishes post 2011 he stunk

Crosby had a 1.27 ppg from 2011-2017 while OV had 0.97 the same period

06 - 10 OV was ~10% better than 06-10 Crosby (ppg wise Crosby was 1.36 vs 1.34 for OV) as he passed the eye test and actual production test

2011-2017 crosby ~40% better than OV from this period.

11 - 17 OV stopped any chance of OV being ranked higher than Mcdavid, Hasek, and Crosby for 5th, 6th, and 7th all time

He is 8th at best if you take him over Bobby hull and 10th at worst if you take him after Hull and Jagr.

OV had no injuries excuses. He had the excellent start to his career and should have ended #2/3 all time. He had an incredibly disapointing last 15 years to not a top 3-5 player all time.

With crosbys injuries in 11-13 he should have won major awards from 2011-2013 and even 2014 and 2016 should have been a lot better

 

[TheLegend27]

Besides those 3 seasons OV is a non factor

Look at his scoring finishes post 2011 he stunk

Crosby had a 1.27 ppg from 2011-2017 while OV had 0.97 the same period

06 - 10 OV was ~10% better than 06-10 Crosby (ppg wise Crosby was 1.36 vs 1.34 for OV) as he passed the eye test and actual production test

2011-2017 crosby ~40% better than OV from this period.

11 - 17 OV stopped any chance of OV being ranked higher than Mcdavid, Hasek, and Crosby for 5th, 6th, and 7th all time

He is 8th at best if you take him over Bobby hull and 10th at worst if you take him after Hull and Jagr.

OV had no injuries excuses. He had the excellent start to his career and should have ended #2/3 all time. He had an incredibly disapointing last 15 years to not a top 3-5 player all time.

With crosbys injuries in 11-13 he should have won major awards from 2011-2013 and even 2014 and 2016 should have been a lot better

Being number #1 all time goal scorer is hardly a disappointment. I get what you mean though, I wish he hadn’t shifted from a dynamic scoring and playmaking puck carrier to a pure sniper. That shift ruled out any more Art Ross wins he had in store. If Ovi maintained his playstyle all the way to 2018, there’s a big five when it comes to all time rankings but oh well can’t dwell on what could’ve been.

 

[hamzarocks]

Being number #1 all time goal scorer is hardly a disappointment. I get what you mean though, I wish he hadn’t shifted from a dynamic scoring and playmaking puck carrier to a pure sniper. That shift ruled out any more Art Ross wins he had in store. If Ovi maintained his playstyle all the way to 2018, there’s a big five when it comes to all time rankings but oh well can’t dwell on what could’ve been.

OV being the GOAT goal scorer in 2020 placed him top 15 all time at the worst

The goal total record made no reason for him to be below #10 on any reasonable list with a case as high as #8 imo.

Whether he got lazy and stopped taking care of his body after 2010 which led to his hands, puck protection, and skating all falling off hard or the NHL becoming more defensive and tight checking and DPE 2.0 era running from 11-16 led to his decline, I dont known but he hurt his all time ranking a lot as a player with how he performed after his 5 year prime.

Him and Crosby both due get overrated all time on these boards.

We have seen a player eclipse them both already 10 years into their careers in Mcdavid.

Nikita Kucherov is 1-2 more seasons like this from being a top 10 player all time as well and kicking one of jagr, Crosby, hull, OV, Hasek down a list.

As legendary as both Crosby and OV are they both underachieved to their expectations and talent and there is a chance both get hurt all time as more players of the current era further their careers.

Kucherov is already in the top 20 with his absurd domiance so far and hes not looking to slow dowb whatsoever

 

[Midnight Judges]

Besides those 3 seasons OV is a non factor

That is absurd. I didn’t bother reading the rest of your post.

 

[hamzarocks]

That’s is absurd. I didn’t bother reading the rest of your post.

Thats fine you are an OV fanboy so not expecting you would realize how drastic OVs falloff post 2010 was as a player and the impact it had on his legacy all time (shot at being top 3-5 vs 8-10 alp time with a lot of players right around that tier or those who can pass him in a few years)

 

[TheLegend27]

That’s is absurd. I didn’t bother reading the rest of your post.

From an Art Ross standpoint it’s true. Obviously Ovi had years where he was the best player between 2011-2017. He just wasn’t the point producer he once was during 2006-2010.

That’s why Crosby 2015 & 2016 don’t sit well with me. The two best players of the generation aren’t competing for the Ross(Malkin injuries, Ovi pure sniper) and Crosby can’t win the Ross?. Imagine Mack became a pure sniper and Kuch was injured all the time. McDavid would run away with the Ross last year, and in the upcoming future as well.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Thats fine you are an OV fanboy so not expecting you would realize how drastic OVs falloff post 2010 was as a player and the impact it had on his legacy all time (shot at being top 3-5 vs 8-10 alp time with a lot of players right around that tier or those who can pass him in a few years)

Unlike you, I watched the games.

You are wildly wrong.

 

[Midnight Judges]

From an Art Ross standpoint it’s true. Obviously Ovi had years where he was the best player between 2011-2017. He just wasn’t the point producer he once was during 2006-2010.

Points in a vacuum is not the be-all metric, especially where the greatest goal scorer of all time is concerned.

Hart votes are significantly biased for Crosby and even they don’t come anywhere near backing up the wild history revisions from the Crosby crowd.

 

[hamzarocks]

Unlike you, I watched the games.

You are wildly wrong.

Man I watched a lot of the games as well

Your a fanboy plain and simple.

Im a Mcdavid fanboy as well

Hes at the minimum looking like a better bet for all time legends.

Sucks for you OV just forgot how to produce after 2010. If he'd kept it up he wouldn't be at risk of kucherov passing him soon

 

[Miro4Norris]

Crosby is weird player to make comparisons because he is not Lemieux\Gretzky level but no other forward is even close to his greatness