Who is the best peak player since 2000?

[SirPaste]

Ovie

 

[Nadal On Clay]

I'd probably slot RS+PO's to Sakic but other than that, seems like a solid list to me.

Yeah Sakic’s season was absolutely amazing too, but it’s hard to ignore a Art-Ross-Smythe combo which has been achieved only by 5 players in history since the Conn-Smythe was awarded in 1965: Wayne in 1985 , Mario in 1992, Orr in 1970 , Lafleur in 1977 and Malkin in 2009.

 

[filinski77]

A regular season is not a full season. A full NHL season is the regular season plus playoffs. So it’s still malkin and his 113 points and 36 playoff points for 149 points scored in 2009.

Besides the fact that Ovi in 07/08 scored only 1 point less than Malkin in 08/09, he scored almost twice as many goals as Malkin did, I still don't know if Malkins playoff performance is enough to close the gap.

And then if you compare both players 08/09 years:
Malkin: 35g 113p in 82 games
Ovi: 56g 110p in 79 games

Ovi still had a better Points/gp, and the extra 20+ goals definitely gives Ovi a pretty good edge in the RS (in my opinion at least). Then look at the playoffs, they both had an identical 1.5 points/gp, the only difference is Pittsburgh made it further in the playoffs. Ovechkin had 8 goals and 14 points (+5) in that 7 game second round series against Pitts, and Malkin had 2 goals and 10 points (-2).

Honestly, I would go as far as saying that Ovi's 07/08, and his 08/09 were both better than Malkins 08/09.

 

[Plural]

Yeah Sakic’s season was absolutely amazing too, but it’s hard to ignore a Art-Ross-Smythe combo which has been achieved only by 5 players in history since the Conn-Smythe was awarded in 1965: Wayne in 1985 , Mario in 1992, Orr in 1970 , Lafleur in 1977 and Malkin in 2009.

Definitely up for interpretation. Sakic probably would have won the Art without Lemieux coming in, so I guess I give him some (un?)-deserved credit for that. But Geno is by no means a bad pick. I think it's absolutely between those two. I also believe that in more "average" year Geno wins Hart and Lindsay too.

 

[Plural]

It's hard to say regarding Lemieux. Honestly i don't necessarily believe great players decline a lot - so i have trouble separating 2001 Lemieux from previous Lemieux in terms of ability - so hard to say. But you're probably right, it's just hard to say for sure.

I agree games played and full seasons should definitely be important, and as such there's nothing wrong with putting OV #1. But if we're talking in terms of strictly top ability i feel as though Crosby was better for some years, as you say.

I don't even know if I'm right. It's just the feeling I got when watching the games. Mario was, well Mario. I think it's clear he wasn't quite peak Lemieux but even removed from his prime he was better than 99.9% of the league.

I won't oppose too much if you feel like including him, but I wouldn't. Because when I saw him and Jagr play it seemed like Jaromir was the better player at that point.

 

[authentic]

This. I can’t believe people’s unwillingnes to look beyond the ”season by season” thinking, 183 points in 115 games is even more impressive since he did that coming back from 1 year injury and hardly any practice, saw his crazy high ppg drop after his injury in 2004 but still managed to string together those impressive numbers you just mentioned. If people could just show any interest in digging deeper in their so called ”facts” I think many more would hold the opinion that 2002 (playoff comeback) - 2005 (mid season injury) Forsberg was probably the most dominant peak player we’ve seen since 2000.

He very arguably was for sure. I would bet Crosby or Ovechkin's best similar stretch barely tops that if at all, and he was more of a two-way player at that time than Crosby ever was even if he was at his best defensively in the late 90s. In terms of physical play he was nearly comparable to Ovechkin, he just didn't hit quite as often but was more calculated with his hits. I know Crosby had 159 points in 99 games I'll check to see what he had in the following 16.

 

[authentic]

It's hard to say regarding Lemieux. Honestly i don't necessarily believe great players decline a lot - so i have trouble separating 2001 Lemieux from previous Lemieux in terms of ability - so hard to say. But you're probably right, it's just hard to say for sure.

I agree games played and full seasons should definitely be important, and as such there's nothing wrong with putting OV #1. But if we're talking in terms of strictly top ability i feel as though Crosby was better for some years, as you say.

Regarding Lemieux he was definitely lacking in speed compared to his earlier years, but the brain and hands were about as good as ever.

 

[Plural]

He very arguably was for sure. I would bet Crosby or Ovechkin's best similar stretch barely tops that if at all, and he was more of a two-way player at that time than Crosby ever was even if he was at his best defensively in the late 90s. In terms of physical play he was nearly comparable to Ovechkin, he just didn't hit quite as often but was more calculated with his hits. I know Crosby had 159 points in 99 games I'll check to see what he had in the following 16.

With Forsberg I'd also say that during those years it was common for elite players to score more than the relative league average we've seen during OV's and especially Sid's peak. So even though the scoring was low it wasn't that low for the elite players. Teams were just often built in unbalanced way.

That said, Foppa was amazing and if somene want's to tell me that his best is near or better of OV's best (for example) I won't object. The thing separating them is consistency and in that Ovechkin beats Forsberg handily.

 

[authentic]

With Forsberg I'd also say that during those years it was common for elite players to score more than the relative league average we've seen during OV's and especially Sid's peak. So even though the scoring was low it wasn't that low for the elite players. Teams were just often built in unbalanced way.

That said, Foppa was amazing and if somene want's to tell me that his best is near or better of OV's best (for example) I won't object. The thing separating them is consistency and in that Ovechkin beats Forsberg handily.

The totals for top scorers were definitely not higher in 2002-03 and especially 2003-04 than they were from 2007-2010 though, but in the seasons since then except last season you would be correct, except for 2003-04. However 28 of those games were right after the 2005 lockout where scoring was at it's highest in recent times but he had 51 points so still not too shabby.

 

[Plural]

The totals for top scorers were definitely not higher in 2002-03 and especially 2003-04 than they were from 2007-2010 though, but in the seasons since then except last season you would be correct, except for 2003-04. However 28 of those games were right after the 2005 lockout where scoring was at it's highest in recent times but he had 51 points so still not too shabby.

Maybe I miswrote, I meant that back in the DPE the top scorers on your team compared to lower end of your team scorers had relatively more points than after the lockout. I may be wrong, but that's how I remember it. So even if the scoring levels were similar league wide it was relatively "easier" to get points as an elite player of your team. I do not know how much difference this makes, maybe none when we take in all context.

 

[DitchMarner]

Refer to post #32, but on top of that...

Forsberg from late December of 2002 until late December of 2005 had a stretch of consecutive regular season games where he scored 183 points in 115 games (also +76) which would be an 82 game pace of 131 points, this was up until his ankle gave out for good and he was never the same after that. A third of those games came in a season where 1 player had more than 87 points (St. Louis with 94) and this was after leading the playoffs in points in 2002 without even playing in the finals, the only player to ever do that twice.

Impressive, but if you want to expand Sakic's peak, you can get the following numbers for him from 1998-2001 (in consecutive games):

295 points in 215 games (1.37 points per game), an 82 game pace of 113 points
123 goals (0.42 goals per game), an 82 game pace of 47 goals
+98

This span includes the '99 season, which is the third lowest scoring season (2004 is the lowest scoring) since 1956.

If you comb through that 215 game stretch and isolate the best stretch of 115 games, you may get numbers similar to Forsberg's during that 115 game stretch you highlighted.

However, while Sakic had a strong 2001 playoffs, his 2000 playoffs wasn't great (just two goals and nine points in 17 games; he was a PPG player in the 1999 playoffs).

 

[DitchMarner]

Maybe I miswrote, I meant that back in the DPE the top scorers on your team compared to lower end of your team scorers had relatively more points than after the lockout. I may be wrong, but that's how I remember it. So even if the scoring levels were similar league wide it was relatively "easier" to get points as an elite player of your team. I do not know how much difference this makes, maybe none when we take in all context.

Not sure this matters in this case.

PPOs per game were higher in 2002-2003 and 2005-2006 (they were extremely high during the 2005-2006 season) than they were from 2008-2013 and just slightly lower in 2003-2004 than in 2007-2008, but even strength scoring was presumably easier during the latter period than it was in 2002-2003 and 2003-2004 because the GPG rate was always higher from '08-'13 than it was in '03 and '04.

Rk	Season	Lg	GP	G	PP	PPO	PP%	PK%	SA	SV	SV%	GAA
7	2012-13	NHL	720	2.72	0.61	3.32	18.22	81.78	29.0	26.5	.912	2.54
8	2011-12	NHL	1230	2.73	0.57	3.31	17.31	82.69	29.7	27.1	.914	2.54
9	2010-11	NHL	1230	2.79	0.64	3.54	18.02	81.98	30.3	27.7	.913	2.61
10	2009-10	NHL	1230	2.84	0.68	3.71	18.23	81.77	30.2	27.5	.911	2.66
11	2008-09	NHL	1230	2.91	0.79	4.16	18.95	81.05	30.1	27.4	.908	2.73
12	2007-08	NHL	1230	2.78	0.76	4.28	17.75	82.25	29.0	26.3	.909	2.61
13	2006-07	NHL	1230	2.95	0.85	4.85	17.58	82.42	29.5	26.7	.905	2.77
14	2005-06	NHL	1230	3.08	1.03	5.85	17.68	82.32	29.9	27.0	.901	2.92
15	2003-04	NHL	1230	2.57	0.70	4.24	16.46	83.54	28.0	25.5	.911	2.46
16	2002-03	NHL	1230	2.65	0.73	4.42	16.43	83.57	28.3	25.7	.909	2.54

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

"G" denotes goals per game.

 

[authentic]

Maybe I miswrote, I meant that back in the DPE the top scorers on your team compared to lower end of your team scorers had relatively more points than after the lockout. I may be wrong, but that's how I remember it. So even if the scoring levels were similar league wide it was relatively "easier" to get points as an elite player of your team. I do not know how much difference this makes, maybe none when we take in all context.

No you are correct for the most part, but overall league scoring was still mostly higher from 2007-10 than it was from roughly 98-2004 so it would sort of balance out. In most of the seasons since 2010-11 except last season the overall scoring was similar to the dead puck era so then it would be harder to score in that period for elite players. For example I could see Crosby's 104 points in 2013-14 being something close to 116 in 2002-03, which is what Forsberg was on pace for. That wasn't even Crosby at his best though, it's too bad we didn't get to see what he could do in a full season from 2010-13.

 

[DitchMarner]

No you are correct for the most part, but overall league scoring was still mostly higher from 2007-10 than it was from roughly 98-2004 so it would sort of balance out. In most of the seasons since 2010-11 except last season the overall scoring was similar to the dead puck era so then it would be harder to score in that period for elite players. For example I could see Crosby's 104 points in 2013-14 being something close to 116 in 2002-03, which is what Forsberg was on pace for. That wasn't even Crosby at his best though, it's too bad we didn't get to see what he could do in a full season from 2010-13.

If the ice time for elite players is roughly equivalent (and you would have to look it up case by case to determine if this is the case) and one player plays in a scoring environment where PPs are more abundant but the overall GPG is lower, I don't think he has much or any advantage over a player playing in a scoring environment with fewer PPOs but more even strength scoring per game. The player playing in the scoring environment with fewer PPOs has the chance to take advantage of the fact that it's easier to score at even strength if he's getting the same minutes as the other guy (fewer PP minutes versus more minutes at even strength when goals are more common at even strength).

 

[Dondini]

I’m surprised nobody talks about Ovechkin 2009-2010 season 72 games 50 goals 109 points on pace for 57 goals 124 points. That’s the best peak season in my opinion I don’t care that he misses 10 games plenty enough of a sample size.

 

[Plural]

Not sure this matters in this case.

PPOs per game were higher in 2002-2003 and 2005-2006 (they were extremely high during the 2005-2006 season) than they were from 2008-2013 and just slightly lower in 2003-2004 than in 2007-2008, but even strength scoring was presumably easier during the latter period than it was in 2002-2003 and 2003-2004 because the GPG rate was always higher from '08-'13 than it was in '03 and '04.

Rk	Season	Lg	GP	G	PP	PPO	PP%	PK%	SA	SV	SV%	GAA
7	2012-13	NHL	720	2.72	0.61	3.32	18.22	81.78	29.0	26.5	.912	2.54
8	2011-12	NHL	1230	2.73	0.57	3.31	17.31	82.69	29.7	27.1	.914	2.54
9	2010-11	NHL	1230	2.79	0.64	3.54	18.02	81.98	30.3	27.7	.913	2.61
10	2009-10	NHL	1230	2.84	0.68	3.71	18.23	81.77	30.2	27.5	.911	2.66
11	2008-09	NHL	1230	2.91	0.79	4.16	18.95	81.05	30.1	27.4	.908	2.73
12	2007-08	NHL	1230	2.78	0.76	4.28	17.75	82.25	29.0	26.3	.909	2.61
13	2006-07	NHL	1230	2.95	0.85	4.85	17.58	82.42	29.5	26.7	.905	2.77
14	2005-06	NHL	1230	3.08	1.03	5.85	17.68	82.32	29.9	27.0	.901	2.92
15	2003-04	NHL	1230	2.57	0.70	4.24	16.46	83.54	28.0	25.5	.911	2.46
16	2002-03	NHL	1230	2.65	0.73	4.42	16.43	83.57	28.3	25.7	.909	2.54

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

"G" denotes goals per game.

No you are correct for the most part, but overall league scoring was still mostly higher from 2007-10 than it was from roughly 98-2004 so it would sort of balance out. In most of the seasons since 2010-11 except last season the overall scoring was similar to the dead puck era so then it would be harder to score in that period for elite players. For example I could see Crosby's 104 points in 2013-14 being something close to 116 in 2002-03, which is what Forsberg was on pace for. That wasn't even Crosby at his best though, it's too bad we didn't get to see what he could do in a full season from 2010-13.

Thanks for both answers. I'm way too drunk to even begin to write an answer, but seems to me that the offsets on different scoring environments are kind of "even out" when talkin about Foppa and the two big guys since -05. Just reinforces the idea that Forsberg in fact was better per game player than Sakic.

I'll consume the information tomorrow when I have less Bourbon in me.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

I’m surprised nobody talks about Ovechkin 2009-2010 season 72 games 50 goals 109 points on pace for 57 goals 124 points. That’s the best peak season in my opinion I don’t care that he misses 10 games plenty enough of a sample size.

Malkin’s 2012 season was better if you factor in Goals per game average and PPO per game.

OV 2008 season is also better when you take per game averages into consideration. The fact that it’s arguably one of the best goalscoring seasons of all time also tilts it in favor of 2008 OV.

 

[DitchMarner]

Malkin’s 2012 season was better if you factor in Goals per game average and PPO per game.

OV 2008 season is also better when you take per game averages into consideration. The fact that it’s arguably one of the best goalscoring seasons of all time also tilts it in favor of 2008 OV.

Also, Ovechkin had better offensive support in 2010 than in 2008. He basically dragged the Caps' offense in 2008.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Also, Ovechkin had better offensive support in 2010 than in 2008. He basically dragged the Caps' offense in 2008.

The 09-10 caps were also maybe the most run and gun team since the lockout with ov playing with both backstrom and semin

 

[22FUTON9]

Id go with Ovi and probably Crosby next

I feel like Sakic’s 00-01 season is kind of getting underrated though. 118 points in an extermely low scoring era, won the hart and pearson also came up second in the selke. On the other hand it was just one season I kind of understand how he’s not getting a lot of votes

 

[Ainec]

Ovi

Crosby's best peak was also the year he got hit by injuries so unfortunately we never got to see it

 

[Appleyard]

Every adjusted season over 1.45 PPG since then (40+ GP):

Lemieux (00-01): 1.91
Crosby (10-11): 1.73
Malkin (11-12): 1.63
Ovechkin (09-10): 1.63
Jagr (00-01): 1.60
Forsberg (02-03): 1.57
Sakic (00-01): 1.56
Crosby (06-07): 1.54
Lemieux (02-03): 1.52
Thornton (05-06): 1.49
Ovechkin (07-08): 1.49
Thornton (02-03): 1.47
Crosby (07-08): 1.47
Jagr (05-06): 1.46
H. Sedin (09-10): 1.45
Kane (15-16): 1.45
Crosby: (13-14): 1.45

 

[authentic]

If the ice time for elite players is roughly equivalent (and you would have to look it up case by case to determine if this is the case) and one player plays in a scoring environment where PPs are more abundant but the overall GPG is lower, I don't think he has much or any advantage over a player playing in a scoring environment with fewer PPOs but more even strength scoring per game. The player playing in the scoring environment with fewer PPOs has the chance to take advantage of the fact that it's easier to score at even strength if he's getting the same minutes as the other guy (fewer PP minutes versus more minutes at even strength when goals are more common at even strength).

If you're referring to the 2013-14 versus 2002-03 example I used it was 5.31 in 2002-03 and 5.34 in 2013-14 (which is basically identical). The top 6 players (on each team) scored a higher percentage of the overall goals in the NHL in 2002-03 mainly because of how much more they played than the bottom line players at both ES and on the PP.

In Forsberg's case though he only averaged 19:20 a game and had 33 PP points whereas Crosby in 2013-14 averaged 21:58 of total ice time and had 38 PP points. I don't see their PP time listed anywhere so I would assume Crosby had more ES and PP time. In this case I would say no Crosby would not have scored more points than Forsberg with 2:38 less ice time per game. Realistically I think it's highly debatable the more I look at it if Crosby would've scored more points than Forsberg at their best, because even if we take Crosby's shortened season in 2010-11 (he had 66 points in 41 games for 1.61 PPG) Forsberg had 78 in 48 in 2002-03 for 1.63 PPG. He did this with less ice time too. Infact his ice time went down to 19:12 the next season and 18:47 the following one, so he basically averaged 19 minutes a game over that entire 115 game stretch I mentioned. Although Crosby scored a lot more goals and had much worse linemates at ES, Forsberg was a better possession and defensive player by a bit.

 

[authentic]

Every adjusted season over 1.45 PPG since then (40+ GP):

Lemieux (00-01): 1.91
Crosby (10-11): 1.73
Malkin (11-12): 1.63
Ovechkin (09-10): 1.63
Jagr (00-01): 1.60
Forsberg (02-03): 1.57
Sakic (00-01): 1.56
Crosby (06-07): 1.54
Lemieux (02-03): 1.52
Thornton (05-06): 1.49
Ovechkin (07-08): 1.49
Thornton (02-03): 1.47
Crosby (07-08): 1.47
Jagr (05-06): 1.46
H. Sedin (09-10): 1.45
Kane (15-16): 1.45
Crosby: (13-14): 1.45

Ovechkin had 88 points in his first 52 games in 2009-10 though which would beat everyone on this list. Plus the 78 in 48 from Forsberg I mentioned above (Lemieux shouldn't count because Jagr outscored him in the games they played once Lemieux came back).

 

[authentic]

Also, Ovechkin had better offensive support in 2010 than in 2008. He basically dragged the Caps' offense in 2008.

True, he had better offensive support but had nearly the same amount of points in 10 less games. I think either season is arguably his best but I believe most would take his 65 goal one where the next highest scorer on his team had 69 points.