Who is the best example of "If he won a Cup he's in the HHOF" type of guy?

[Crosby2010]

Just a disclaimer, I already know there are a couple of guys on here who actually did win the Cup. But they either did it as rookies down the depth chart and not "their" team or as goalies who were back ups and not the starter. So without further ado.................

John Vanbiesbrouck - Might be the best example of a guy that is in the HHOF if he has a Cup. 1996 is his best shot, and taking down, Lindros, Lemieux/Jagr and then Sakic/Forsberg/Roy would probably be too much to pass up on. Basically Beezer is Bobrovsky without his Cup. Pretty much everyone and their mother agrees Bob is on his way to the HHOF, but he fell into that category a couple of years ago as a guy who didn't have a great playoff resume. There is a soft case for Beezer as it is, since he has all of the Vezina votes you would need, including a Vezina. But that Cup, man, that seals it.

Andy Moog - Yeah I know, he won three Cups. And yes he was even in net for an injured Fuhr in 1984 when the Oilers won. I get it. He was 4-0 in 1984, 1-0 in 1985 and 2-0 in 1987. He did play in the playoffs, just not much over Fuhr. 1983 was the year it was all him and he took the Oilers to the final. 1990 was probably his best shot at the Cup with the Bruins. To me, even with a weaker Vezina voting record, that probably puts him over the top.

Rick Middleton - Nifty Middleton still has a good case, but if he is raising that Cup in Boston he's in. It is between him or Ratelle for the Smythe in 1979 if the Bruins get past the Habs and beat the Rangers. Middleton actually made a crafty move on Serge Savard just before the Lambert overtime goal to eliminate them. Savard took the puck away from him and the play went the other way and it was game over. But if he scores there, and the Bruins win in the final which I think they would, he's in.

Mike Liut - Won more games in the 1980s than any other goalie. Won the Pearson, finished in top 6 hart voting 3 times. Had his great years spread apart a bit, but I am thinking if he even wins the 1981 Canada Cup things look different for him. But it is the playoff resume that really needed sharpening up. Only once went to Round 3 and even then it was a tandem with Don Beaupre. A Cup spices up things.

Curtis Joseph - Maybe the best case of a guy who needed a Cup. Legendary playoff goalie in the 1st round. Lots of great moments. None after that though. The 1996 World Cup loss and the 2002 Olympics benching don't help either, and I honestly think a win in either one of those and we are singing a different tune (I know he still won as a back up in 2002). But he has everything else he needs. He didn't win a Vezina but he had many elite years. Just never got it done in the postseason. He is in the HHOF if he wins, but as it stands I am not sure there is a goalie in the HHOF who never went to the final, and he didn't.

Theoren Fleury - Again, like Moog he did win a Cup. But he was a rookie. The 1989 Flames were loaded and Fleury was a good addition getting 34 points in 36 games and then 11 points in the playoffs. He had loaded 1st rounds after that, and it was never his fault the Flames lost with those great teams. But they did lose, and he never got a Cup where he was the central guy and not a 3rd/4th liner. He needed that. And even in his case winning at the top level for Canada still didn't help him. A Stanley Cup would have.



Bonus: While he isn't eligible yet, I think a Stanley Cup as a starter for Tuukka Rask changes things for him and makes people forget 2010. Discuss.

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[MadLuke]

Joseph outside the Red Wings cup would have been a big one and I imagine he would have been automatically in the Smythe conversation considering the squad and the goaltending they would have needed to win it all.

Toronto had really good teams obviously, but they need to beat a mix of the Stars-Devils-Avs-Wings to win it.

I was going to say being a big piece on a cup team is such a big deal for voters, that I imagine almost all boderline player if they do not enter would be a good answer, but Damphousse and Elias are not in and not locked to be, so maybe I am overrating it.

Even if Mogilny had a better playoff when the Devils won, maybe he never get in.

The fact we have 1996 Panthers ahead of 1999 Lindros Flyers (or some Rangers year) as Vanbiesbrouck best shoot in mind, I wonder what it say about who, beating 1996 Avalange with the Panthers was a shoot but better than the 1999 Stars with the Flyers... he was older by then too.

 

[Voight]

Beezer for sure. As it stands he has a Vezina and eight additional seasons where he was top 10 in Vezina voting. Not to mention a 3rd and 5th place Hart finish.

 

[carjackmalone]

Tim Kerr
Rick Martin
Brian Propp

 

[The Panther]

Yes, the OP has a great list. Basically agree with all, but the two that seem most "no-brainer-if-they-had-Cups" to me are Vanbiesbrouck and Joseph.

Vanbiesbrouck probably has enough accomplisments / games / wins already that he could / should be in the Hall. He's presumably right on that tipping-point edge, and I'm sure his name has come up on the committee's lists several times by now. I still suspect he'll get in sooner or later, but you wonder why he's had to wait this long. (Yeah, I know, his racist outburst ten years ago or whatever possibly didn't help.) So, I think if he'd just won one Cup, he would have been in, llke, 10 years ago.

Not quite the same with Joseph as I don't think he's quite as accomplished as Vanbiesbrouck, but he's close, and I also think there is still a reasonable chance he gets in. But if he'd won one Cup, his stock would get elevated up with Belfour and those kind of guys.

Not sure about Moog. Maybe if Boston had won in 1990 (as they could have), there would be a stronger argument, but I think it would still be a so-so argument. (We pause here to remember that that series turned on Moog's allowing a weak overtime goal in game one, and Moog's utter bed-crapping in game two.) But even if he'd won that one Cup with defensively-strong Boston, there would still be a lot of poor playoff showings and a lack of All-Star finishes, awards, etc. I would personally always remember his epic choke in the 1997 Edmonton - Dallas series, when Moog allowed Ryan Smyth's muffin shot between his legs in overtime. (Possible the only slapshot goal Ryan Smyth ever scored on.)

Middleton already has a stronger case than Moog, but I'm not sure a Cup moves the needle too much. Maybe if he'd won the Conn Smythe or something, that'd be different. And I largely feel the same about Fleury.

Liut is an interesting one. I just don't think winning a Cup, though, would have been possible in any way during his career. It just seems inconceivable. (Like if the Canucks had won in 1982.)

 

[MadLuke]

This could be age difference, I am really unsure if there daylight between Vanbiesbouck and Joseph accomplishment

Joseph
Regular season
943 games, 454 wins, 126.8 GSAA
Top 5 Vezina: 2-3-3-4-5
Hart: 3-11
Clancy

Playoff:
133 games, 63 wins, 62.1 GSAA

Intl
1996 canada cup mostly, famously sweden games in 2002, but still getting the starting jobs, even because of the coach show the status.

Vanbiesbrouck
Regular season
882 games, 374 wins, 205.8 GSAA
Top 5 Vezina: 1-2-4-5
Hart: 3-5-5

Playoff:
71 games, 28 wins, 53.1 GSAA

Intl
1987 Canada cup
Couple of strong worlds
1 games in 1991 canada cup, 1 shots in nagano


If we go binary wise, 1 vezina, 1 cup final to 0, but Joseph played significantly more, which could be just the product of the 80s having a strong tradition of splitting the net in the regular season even with Roy and Fuhr.

But that seem really similar, even the not getting it done with the Red Wings or Flyers at old age part, their fault or not, really impressive peak and memoral performance, while being under the Belfour type top dog, both being the best of the second tier type.

 

[hockey webcomics]

Olaf Kolzig?

 

[MXD]

Beezer and Joseph seem like obvious ones indeed.
Tuukka Rask is IMO a decent example because I really don't think he's getting in.

A Cup (with Vancouver as a very important piece) would've given Ryan Kesler a case. Maybe not "getting in", just going from "having no real case" to "having a case".

I think PK Subban misses, but winning with Montreal (in 2014, as the very obvious 1D of a D-squad that was actually not very good past Andrei Markov at 2D) almost certainly locks him in, while winning with Nashville (in 2017, as the 1bD or 2D) gives him a much better shot.

Olaf Kolzig?

Hehh... I think he still misses, but on that type of candidacy, I prefer Kiprusoff.

 

[hockey webcomics]

Hehh... I think he still misses, but on that type of candidacy, I prefer Kiprusoff.

yeah, maybe kipper fits the rask's situation, if he never makes it like you believe - and i too think he won't.

 

[MadLuke]

A Cup (with Vancouver as a very important piece) would've given Ryan Kesler a case. Maybe not "getting in", just going from "having no real case" to "having a case".

Would need quite a run for him to get over the Damphousse-Elias-Brind'amour tier of people waiting imo, who all won while being top piece on their teams, with longer and greater career.

But maybe those will get in one day anyway,

 

[VanIslander]

Trevor Linden scored 2 goals in a 2-3 Game 7 Stanley Cup Final loss. If he - not Messier - had scored the next third period goal... he would have become an epic clutch playoff heto, bringing the cup to Vancouver, locking in his esteem and position in the franchise, ... NOT bouncing around eastern conference teams.

One friggin' goal not made... made the entire difference.

The fact that Messier scored that deciding goal, and later became the reason why Linden was shipped out of town is... poetry, bitterly received.

 

[Minnesota Knudsens]

Just refreshed my memory about Vanbiesbrouck in ‘96. Dragging a terrible team to a SCF should be thought of in the same vein as winning it all. Dude just suffered from burnout at the end.

 

[Davenport]

Other: Dennis Maruk

 

[BraveCanadian]

Theo Fleury did win a cup. So did Moog.

CuJo is an obvious answer here as a guy who dragged poor teams through a round or two only to get beat up later. If Detroit had remembered how to score when he went there he is 100% in.

Beezer too.. Middleton just needed to hold on long enough for the milestones I think

 

[Overrated]

Fleury with another cup would make his resume very stacked. I could see him being a HOF even with the career he had.

 

[The Panther]

Trevor Linden scored 2 goals in a 2-3 Game 7 Stanley Cup Final loss. If he - not Messier - had scored the next third period goal... he would have become an epic clutch playoff heto, bringing the cup to Vancouver, locking in his esteem and position in the franchise, ... NOT bouncing around eastern conference teams.

One friggin' goal not made... made the entire difference.

The fact that Messier scored that deciding goal, and later became the reason why Linden was shipped out of town is... poetry, bitterly received.

Linden was shipped out of town because of Mike Keenan, not because of Messier. There was never any problem between Linden and Messier.
(On another topic, does anyone agree with me that Messier did not score the goal you refer to...? It seems to me someone else did.)

Theo Fleury did win a cup. So did Moog.

The OP already acknowleged this in his first post and explained his reasons for mentioning them.

 

[seventieslord]

A couple of off-the-board answers where a cup potentially makes all the difference:

- Phil Housley is a hall of famer, but he's not a good hall of famer, you know? if he somehow managed to win a Stanley Cup, in particular, before 1994, as a top pairing puck mover, would not look so out of place. Of course, in reality, he didn't have this in him, but in some alternate universe where he did, and it happened, we'd probably look at him more like we look at Zubov and he wouldn't be such a stinky HHOFer.

- Phil Kessel is seen as a pretty borderline HHOFer, even still. Even with three Stanley Cups (two as a key member), even with four times top-10 in points, even with the ironman record. And fair enough on that, because he's been one of the worst defensive forwards of the analytics era. We should view his offensive achievements through that lens. But if it was four cups (three as a key member), would there be any doubt at that point? How could we say he's any worse than Glenn Anderson at that point?

- Phil Watson won one Stanley Cup and was a decent enough player, with three top-10s in points, a reputation as a fiery competitor and a decent defensive reputation. If the Rangers had managed to get through to an extra cup in the mid-40s, bringing his total to three, would he have had enough to make it? Keep in mind that he coached in the NHL for nine years, which can help borderline cases (even though his coaching record was awful).

- Phil Goyette won four Stanley Cups with the Rangers, but he was mostly a depth player for them. He went to the Rangers and became "The Guy", with two top-10s in points for the team. Unfortunately, during this prime the team suffered three first round upsets as their playoff peaks. Goyette ended up on the expansion Blues for the 69-70 season and posted his most impressive regular season - 4th in points. Had the 1970 Blues managed to pull off an upset in the finals, or if the Rangers broke through just one of those years, you've got a guy with three top-10s in points who was the top center and scorer of a cup winner. Good all-around game, too. He'd be in.

- Phil Russell is one example of a number of post-expansion defensemen who had a long, fruitful career with a decade of being a #1-3 defensemen on generally pretty good teams. He made all-star games and had some scattered all-star and norris votes. If you imagine in just one of those seasons his team gets through, with him playing a #1 role, it wouldn't look that out of line for him to be in the hall. Others in the same boat include Barry Beck, Randy Carlyle, Carol Vadnais, Reed Larson, Craig Hartsburg, and Paul Reinhart.

and just to highlight one defensive-oriented defenseman:

- Chris Phillips was an excellent shutdown defenseman for most of his career. Typically the kind of guy who settled in at #2-3 in overall TOI but was the top guy at even strength taking all the tough matchups. If Ottawa had beaten the Leafs just two out of those four times, advanced further, and pulled off one cup win during his prime with him shutting down the likes of Sundin, Roenick, Recchi, Lecavalier, Richards, Elias, etc, and the top players from the west (Fedorov? Yzerman? Modano? Sakic? Forsberg?) on the biggest stage, we'd remember him even more fondly and there'd be at least somewhat of an appetite to have him go in similar to how Kevin Lowe got in.

 

[hockey webcomics]

There's Keith Tkachuk too.
Weird not being an inductee with more than 500 goals and 1000 points.

 

[Dissonance Jr]

If Nashville wins the Cup in 2017, Pekka Rinne probably would’ve gotten the Conn Smythe (maybe assume he doesn’t get blown out in Games 1 or 5, or at least recovers and finishes the series strongly) and that’d give him an excellent HHOF case. His resume is pretty close as is.

 

[The Panther]

A Cup (with Vancouver as a very important piece) would've given Ryan Kesler a case. Maybe not "getting in", just going from "having no real case" to "having a case".

Yeah... no. Even with having won the 2011 Cup (imagining he was at his best in the Final and pushed Vancouver over the edge), Kesler's 573 points in 1001 games and one 30-goal season are nowhere near Hall of Fame level.

 

[The Panther]

Would Patrick Marleau be on this list, too? I don't say he deserves to be in the Hall (he doesn't), but if the Sharks had won during his prime, I could see that maybe pushing him in.

What about Claude Giroux? Is he Hall-of-Fame bound anyway? Not sure. But I think a big performance on a Cup winner would have punched his ticket.

 

[hockey webcomics]

Marleau matches your criteria for the thread yeah but I believe he will be inducted.
I believe both he and Thornton will.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i think a cup will end up being the difference for ryan suter