Who has the most potential to be considered better than Patrick Kane at the end of their career: Kaprizov, Q. Hughes or Pastrnak?

[jalapenoWithAnH]

If you consider Kanes career and prime accomplishments do you think any of these three will exceed him?

Kane:

• 1x Art Ross
• 1x Hart
• 1x Conn Smythe
• 1x Calder
• 3x First All Star team + 1 Second All Star team nominations
• Career ppg: 1.03

Pastrnak (28 yo):

• 1x Rocket Richard
• 2x First All Star team + 1 Seond All Star team nominations
• Career ppg: 1.1

Kaprizov (28 yo):

• 1x Calder
• Career ppg: 1.21

Q. Hughes (25 yo):

• 1x Norris
• Career ppg: 0.94

If you differentiate elite players into genrational, superstar and franchise tiers I consider Q. Hughes, Kaprizov and Pastrnak to be at the high end of the superstar tier just below the lower generational tier of MacKinnon, Kucherov and Draisaitl. I'm not sure how to rank Kane but his prime is definitely atleast at the high end of superstar tier or at most at the low end of generational tier.

Kane is considered top 100 player all time so the question basically can any of these players get into that group of players and exceed his career accomplishments?

 

[banks]

None of them.

That's not an insult. But Kane is like top 5 in his entire generation. Sid/Ovi/Malkin and then Kane enters the conversation. Those 3 aren't tracking to be better than that.

 

[jalapenoWithAnH]

None of them.

That's not an insult. But Kane is like top 5 in his entire generation. Sid/Ovi/Malkin and then Kane enters the conversation. Those 3 aren't tracking to be better than that.

Is that a valid argument though if you consider the fact that current generation might have more top end players.

You got the top 5 of McD, Drai, MacK, Kuch and Makar. That's basically the generational tier of this generation when previous generation had arguably "only" those three you mentioned in that tier.

So basically being top 6-8 in this generation would equal top 4-6 in the previous.

I think Kaprizov and Pastrnak have the potential to be top 6-8 and Hughes also has the potential to be the second best defenseman behind Makar.

 

[Stewie Griffin]

Yeah I don't think any, and I don't want to use the "AINEC" but....Kane has 3 cups, Calder, Conn Smythe, and won the Hart/Art Ross/Lindsay in 2016.

None of these guys are doing that.

 

[Fatass]

P. Kane has how many Cups? If these guys are all in the same tier of greatness (which your poll suggests) then leading a team to Cups becomes how they are ranked within that tier.

 

[Stewie Griffin]

Is that a valid argument though if you consider the fact that current generation might have more top end players.

This is only a point of view because scoring went up around 2018/2019 ish when they made goalie equipment smaller. That's why you see so many higher scoring seasons now and records being broken compared to the 2005-2015 era

 

[jalapenoWithAnH]

P. Kane has how many Cups? If these guys are all in the same tier of greatness (which your poll suggests) then leading a team to Cups becomes how they are ranked within that tier.

Well Kane played with 2010-2015 Blackhawks. Kaprizov plays with...Wild. Same goes for Hughes. Pastrnak is the only one of the three who has had decent teammates.

But that's why I say potential. You could say these three have the skill ceiling to become as good as Kane but them winning cups is at this point heavily reliable on what moves the GM's of their teams will do.

 

[Fatass]

Well Kane played with 2010-2015 Blackhawks. Kaprizov plays with...Wild. Same goes for Hughes. Pastrnak is the only one of the three who has had decent teammates.

But that's why I say potential. You could say these three have the skill ceiling to become as good as Kane but them winning cups is at this point heavily reliable on what moves the GM's of their teams will do.

If these guys are considered in the same tier of greatness, then leading a club to a Cup ranks them within that tier.

 

[RevengeOfTheDrai]

This is only a point of view because scoring went up around 2018/2019 ish when they made goalie equipment smaller. That's why you see so many higher scoring seasons now and records being broken compared to the 2005-2015 era

It’s rather that Mack/Kuch/Drai consistently lead the league in points along with McDavid. Crosby/Ovi/Malkin/Kane haven’t done that enough. The current generation top end talent is definitely better than the generation which let Jamie Benn win the Art Ross, then place second the following year.

 

[banks]

Is that a valid argument though if you consider the fact that current generation might have more top end players.

You got the top 5 of McD, Drai, MacK, Kuch and Makar. That's basically the generational tier of this generation when previous generation had arguably "only" those three you mentioned in that tier.

So basically being top 6-8 in this generation would equal top 4-6 in the previous.

I think Kaprizov and Pastrnak have the potential to be top 6-8 and Hughes also has the potential to be the second best defenseman behind Makar.

I hear you. And I can probably agree that the top 6-8 today would be the same tier as the top 4-6 from Kane's heyday.

But I don't agree with the last paragraph. I don't think that Kaprizov, Pastrnak, and Hughes are tracking to be in that 6-8 range for the career rank for the current crop of superstars. Hughes seems the closest, and arguably could be top5-10 now. But this is about career. Even if one of them is or was in the top 5-10 at any given point, I don't see them locking that spot down for the entirety of their careers. Kane was not just a top 5~ish player for a year or two or three.

I don't see these guys as being right behind the McDavid tier for 15+years. I just don't.

 

[jalapenoWithAnH]

But I don't agree with the last paragraph. I don't think that Kaprizov, Pastrnak, and Hughes are tracking to be in that 6-8 range for the career rank for the current crop of superstars. Hughes seems the closest, and arguably could be top5-10 now. But this is about career. Even if one of them is or was in the top 5-10 at any given point, I don't see them locking that spot down for the entirety of their careers. Kane was not just a top 5~ish player for a year or two or three.

I don't see these guys as being right behind the McDavid tier for 15+years. I just don't.

Here's what their point production has looked in the 2020s (regular season and playoff ppg combined) for the last five regular seasons and four playoffs:

As you can see on a sample size of five seasons Pastrnak and Kaprizov are in the top 10 so pretty close to that 6-8. How they will look at the end of their careers is hard to say. But if we talk in relation to their generation isn't it safe to say that they are top 10 in their generations if they have been for five years already?

Ofcourse with Hughes you have to consider the fact that he is a dman but yeah.

So was Kane a top 5 player longer than 5 years?

 

[jalapenoWithAnH]

This is only a point of view because scoring went up around 2018/2019 ish when they made goalie equipment smaller. That's why you see so many higher scoring seasons now and records being broken compared to the 2005-2015 era

I wasn't talking about absolute scoring levels, but rather relative ones. So who is at the top 5 or top 10 of each generation and for what period of time. Seems like the top 5 of this generation have been at it for qute some time.

 

[Crow]

Quinn Hughes has the potential to win more Norris trophies. If he won two more, which is a tall ask considering the competition, but feasible . . . I think he could possibly get there. Being seen as the second best or arguably best defensemen in his generation would be close kanes top 4/5 level as a forward. Hughes would have to do something in the postseason too though.

Career PPG is a complete non factor in these decisions imo.

 

[centipede2233]

I have Hughes as better.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

none

 

[wetcoast]

None of them.

That's not an insult. But Kane is like top 5 in his entire generation. Sid/Ovi/Malkin and then Kane enters the conversation. Those 3 aren't tracking to be better than that.

I think Quinn is trending to surpass Kane but he has to stay healthy.

his play over the last 2 (even 3 seasons really) is already arguably better than any 2 or 3 year stretch of Kanes 2-3-4 seasons when stacked up against each other seasons.

Of course Kane has the playoff clutch title and some good longevity as well but Hughes is already ahead in the regular season at the same point of their careers.

Pasta is probably close overall at this stage of their careers but his playoff resume will drop off with the current situation in Boston and Kaprizov has the late start to his career and already missed too many games in 3 peak years to make up the difference IMO.

 

[hamzarocks]

I think Quinn is trending to surpass Kane but he has to stay healthy.

his play over the last 2 (even 3 seasons really) is already arguably better than any 2 or 3 year stretch of Kanes 2-3-4 seasons when stacked up against each other seasons.

Of course Kane has the playoff clutch title and some good longevity as well but Hughes is already ahead in the regular season at the same point of their careers.

Pasta is probably close overall at this stage of their careers but his playoff resume will drop off with the current situation in Boston and Kaprizov has the late start to his career and already missed too many games in 3 peak years to make up the difference IMO.

Kane 2015 to 2017 still clears Quinn Hughes past 2-3 years

Kane in 2015 reg season was top 3 in ppg, then had an elite playoffs. Top 5 player in the league (OV, Kane, Crosby, Tavares, Price)

2016 he takes the big 3 awards and destroys the field. Best player in the NHL

2017 he has a very elite season with 89 pts in a league Mcdavid won with 100 and Crosby paced second with about 97 pts. He was top 5 this year (Crosby, Mcdavid, Malkin, Kane and Kucherov)

 

[wetcoast]

Kane 2015 to 2017 still clears Quinn Hughes past 2-3 years

Maybe I'm not really so sure as Hughes won the Norris last year and was elading the Norris race as well before the injuries.

Kane won the Hart in 16 obviously and wasn't really going to be a candidate in in 15 and in 17 he was 6th but one could argue that's a generous placing.

the 4 years overall for Quinn is arguably better IMO but then sure we get to playoffs.

Kane in 2015 reg season was top 3 in ppg, then had an elite playoffs. Top 5 player in the league (OV, Kane, Crosby, Tavares, Price)

He was 4th in PPG but elite in the playoffs, not so sure as 2 of his teammates were also elite in the playoffs that year in Keith/Toews.

Don't get me wrong Kane was excellent in the playoffs but sometimes the clutch thing is overblown and he was practically playing on a dynasty team for the Salary cap era situation.

Also after his age 26 season Kane doesn't really move the needle at all with his playoff resume.

Of course there is the before part though.

2016 he takes the big 3 awards and destroys the field. Best player in the NHL

2017 he has a very elite season with 89 pts in a league Mcdavid won with 100 and Crosby paced second with about 97 pts. He was top 5 this year (Crosby, Mcdavid, Malkin, Kane and Kucherov)

I know that Kane was 6th in Hart voting that year just ahead of Brad Marchard but There is a really strong argument that Brad was the much better overall player that year, more than Kuch actually.

But Kane has done what he has done the others like Quinn and Pasta have to stay healthy and get quite a bit done to catch him sure but Quinn is tracking very well IMO and is probably the most likely to challenge Kane..

 

[banks]

Here's what their point production has looked in the 2020s (regular season and playoff ppg combined) for the last five regular seasons and four playoffs:

View attachment 1041020

As you can see on a sample size of five seasons Pastrnak and Kaprizov are in the top 10 so pretty close to that 6-8. How they will look at the end of their careers is hard to say. But if we talk in relation to their generation isn't it safe to say that they are top 10 in their generations if they have been for five years already?

Ofcourse with Hughes you have to consider the fact that he is a dman but yeah.

So was Kane a top 5 player longer than 5 years?

Lets find out. I'm not sure where you got your numbers, so mine don't totally stack up identically. I don't have a place that totals regular/post season stats. I picked a 5 year span for Kane in the regular season, and put those similar games played against the numbers you gave me for Kaprizov and Pasta. This is Kane from 2015-16 thru 2019-20:

player	games player	points	points per game
Pastrnak	398	471	1.18
Kaprizov	334	394	1.17
Kane	397	465	1.17

So his numbers match perfectly. And we know that his game was immaculate in the playoffs, which I didn't include. Then let's mention that Kane did this when scoring was much lower than today, as has been mentioned by others already. And then let's add hardware:

Pasta/Kaprizov combined. 1 Calder, 1 Rocket
Kane: 3 Cups, 1 Calder, 1 Conn Smythe, 1 Art Ross, 1 Hart, 1 Lindsay

I think I'm safe to say that Kane is higher amongst his peers than Pasta/Kaprizov are to theirs. And Kane was absolutely a top 5 player for longer than 5 years.

 

[jalapenoWithAnH]

Lets find out. I'm not sure where you got your numbers, so mine don't totally stack up identically. I don't have a place that totals regular/post season stats.

I took those numbers from official nhl stats and just combined them manually since there's no source that I'm aware of that lists regular+post season stats as a one number. I also counted in 5v5 stats from naturalstatrick and goal differentials as separate stats. But yeah that was too much work to do for something like this lol. Here's the full stats if you or someone else is interested. And keep in mind this is from 2020s so Pastrnak is missing a bunch of seasons here:

I picked a 5 year span for Kane in the regular season, and put those similar games played against the numbers you gave me for Kaprizov and Pasta. This is Kane from 2015-16 thru 2019-20:

player	games player	points	points per game
Pastrnak	398	471	1.18
Kaprizov	334	394	1.17
Kane	397	465	1.17

So his numbers match perfectly. And we know that his game was immaculate in the playoffs, which I didn't include. Then let's mention that Kane did this when scoring was much lower than today, as has been mentioned by others already. And then let's add hardware:

Pasta/Kaprizov combined. 1 Calder, 1 Rocket
Kane: 3 Cups, 1 Calder, 1 Conn Smythe, 1 Art Ross, 1 Hart, 1 Lindsay

I think I'm safe to say that Kane is higher amongst his peers than Pasta/Kaprizov are to theirs. And Kane was absolutely a top 5 player for longer than 5 years.

Hmm okay interesting. Well Kane sure does have more hardware. But again as a counterargument I'd say: he did play for th Blackhawks dynasty. So I think we need to keep that in mind when we talk about potential. We can't just straight up compare postseasons like that because Kane played in a very good team and had many deep runs.

So when you point out that their ppgs are similar but that Kane played in a lower scoring era I'd point out that atleast Kaprizov haven't had nearly as good teammates as Kane had. You can argue that Pastrnak had better but he is now in the same situation as Kaprizov after the retirement of Bergeron and trade of Marchand.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Hughes would have to win at least 2 Cups and a Smythe to be in the same convo as Kane. Him losing Norris trophies to Makar doesn’t put him on the level of one of the greatest American players ever.

 

[Felidae]

Hughes.

Already has a Norris trophy and is a nominee this year, arguably could have won if not for injuries. All by the age of 25.

Kane finished 5th and 9th in points, finished 6th and 7th in hart voting (2nd highest ranking winger both years) and a Smythe by 25.

Arguably has the more accomplished start to his career (at least RS).

Best chance of surpassing Kane imo.


Kaprizov basically has no chance. Pastrnak would need to keep up his production for a few more years to start being in the conversation with Kane.

 

[Phrasing]

Hughes would have to win at least 2 Cups and a Smythe to be in the same convo as Kane. Him losing Norris trophies to Makar doesn’t put him on the level of one of the greatest American players ever.

He beat Makar last year and nearly could have this year.

 

[NVious]

Hughes has a more open lane than Kaprizov who would need some monster years and down years for 4-6 of the other top guys which is pretty tough to happen in succession+ he also has a Norris and is 3 years younger.

I really hope Kirill can staay healthy because he is truly a fantastic player though