Who had the tougher competition for individual awards, Crosby or McDavid?

[TheLegend27]

Well yes, because McDavid has had better luck with injuries than Crosby. These aren't independent things. If Crosby hadn't gotten hurt he would have won 5 straight Art Ross trophies. If McDavid had missed 5 games more in 21-22 Huberdeau would have an Art Ross (lol).


Except in 2022 where he was holding off Huberdeau until the last few games, right, and only beat him by 8? The guy who would only score 55 points the very next season.

Benn outscored Crosby the following year as well. The storm aligned twice?.

Years in question + following year:
2015, 2016:
Crosby: 169 pts
Benn: 176 pts

2022, 2023:
McDavid: 276 pts
Huberdeau:170 pts

Crosby was nowhere near McDavid's level of driving offense those seasons, a Benn-level player wouldn't outscore him once, never mind twice in a row. Crosby had the perfect period to dominate hardware, with a lack of top-end talent from 2011-2017 yet the result excuse or not was 1 single win. Even if we generously assume McDavid gets injured the same as Crosby in 11,12,13, I don't see him losing in 2015, 2016, and 2017.

 

[Hockey4Lyfe]

Shame about Crosby's injuries but you can't give him unearned awards based on "what if?"

Sometimes the best ability is availability.

The answer is McDavid.

Why do people care so damn much about awards? Yeah the dude got injured but it was easy as hell to see if you actually watched hockey then that Crosby was on another level than Malkin/Ovechkin.

Too many people look at these awards and just blindly say one is better than the other.

You would be hard pressed to have a GM back in that time say they would take Malkin or Ovechkin over Crosby.

Exactly how none today would take Matthews over McDavid. The argument is nonsense.

 

[La Bamba]

Competition now is higher. MacKinnon and Kucherov are insane point scorers. Crosby's rivals were superior

 

[Sky04]

McDavid does by far, the Sedins? really?

 

[OtherThingsILike]

Crosby, easily.

McDavid.

It's telling that in McDavid's time you don't see multiple Hart and Ross trophies going to players on the level of Benn, Sedins, Perry

Correct. What it tells you is that Crosby had the more difficult competition.

 

[daver]

Let's go through the exercise of switching them so place McDavid in the league in 05/06 and put Crosby in the league at 15/16.


1st season: Crosby wins the Calder trophy

2nd season: Both players win the Art Ross, the Hart, and the Lindsay

3rd season: Both players do not win awards, McDavid is 2nd in the Ross to OV

4th season: Both players do not win any awards

5th season: Crosby wins the Rocket

6th season: McDavid wins the Art, Hart, and Lindsay

7th season: Both players do not win any awards, McDavid is 2nd in the Ross to Malkin

8th season: McDavid wins the Art, Hart, and Lindsay, possibly loses the Rocket to OV
Crosby misses only 12 games of an 82 game season and wins the Art Ross, Hart and Lindsay

9th season: McDavid wins Art Ross, Hart and Lindsay
Crosby doesn’t win the Art Ross, Hart or Lindsay


Crosby gains the Calder and loses a Lindsay. McDavid loses a Ross but gains a Hart.

Pretty even I would say.

 

[slapKing]

Since 2017:

The only Art Ross winners have been McDavid, Draisaitl, and Kucherov. One of Drai, Kuch, or Mack will win it this year.

The only Ted Lindsay winners have been McDavid, Draisaitl, Kucherov, MacKinnon, and Matthews. One of Drai, Kuch, or Mack have a good chance to win it this year.

The only Hart winners have been all mentioned above, with the only blimp being Taylor Hall.

The only Rocket winners have been Ovechkin, Crosby, McDavid, Matthews, and Pastranak. But since 2021, Matthews has dominated the goal scoring, with McDavid scoring a Rocket in that span. Draisaitl the favorite to win this year.

Among Centers; McDavid, Draisaitl, MacKinnon, and Matthews have dominated the field, and Kucherov has been the dominate winger.

No offense, but Perry/Benn/St.Louis/Sedins/Tavares/Stamkos/Getzlaf are not on the level of Draisaitl/Kucherov/MacKinnon/Matthews. Quality over quantity.

You need to put a huge emphasis on Ovechkin and Malkin to say Crosby has the tougher competition.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Since 2017:

The only Art Ross winners have been McDavid, Draisaitl, and Kucherov. One of Drai, Kuch, or Mack will win it this year.

The only Ted Lindsay winners have been McDavid, Draisaitl, Kucherov, MacKinnon, and Matthews. One of Drai, Kuch, or Mack have a good chance to win it this year.

The only Hart winners have been all mentioned above, with the only blimp being Taylor Hall.

The only Rocket winners have been Ovechkin, Crosby, McDavid, Matthews, and Pastranak. But since 2021, Matthews has dominated the goal scoring, with McDavid scoring a Rocket in that span. Draisaitl the favorite to win this year.

Among Centers; McDavid, Draisaitl, MacKinnon, and Matthews have dominated the field, and Kucherov has been the dominate winger.

No offense, but Perry/Benn/St.Louis/Sedins/Tavares/Stamkos/Getzlaf are not on the level of Draisaitl/Kucherov/MacKinnon/Matthews. Quality over quantity.

You need to put a huge emphasis on Ovechkin and Malkin to say Crosby has the tougher competition.

In addition, there was some funky voting choices in Hall's MVP year.

McDavid won the Ross and had 15 more points than Hall yet finished 5th in Hart voting likely because of missing the playoffs.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

In addition, there was some funky voting choices in Hall's MVP year.

McDavid won the Ross and had 15 more points than Hall yet finished 5th in Hart voting likely because of missing the playoffs.

Yeah, it's because he was outside the top 10 in scoring midway through the year and then stat padded after his team was eliminated.

 

[TheLegend27]

Crosby, easily.


Correct. What it tells you is that Crosby had the more difficult competition.

How does Benn, Sedins, and Perry winning harts and Rosses equate to harder competition for Crosby?.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

How does Benn, Sedins, and Perry winning harts and Rosses equate to harder competition for Crosby?.

More players who are talented enough to be capable of winning Harts and Rosses = more difficult competition.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

No offense, but Perry/Benn/St.Louis/Sedins/Tavares/Stamkos/Getzlaf are not on the level of Draisaitl/Kucherov/MacKinnon/Matthews. Quality over quantity.

You need to put a huge emphasis on Ovechkin and Malkin to say Crosby has the tougher competition.

You need to put a huge emphasis on two players to say that Crosby has the tougher competition than someone who only has four players to compete against?

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

More players who are talented enough to be capable of winning Harts and Rosses = more difficult competition.

No, it means the talent pool was weak enough that players on that level won awards.

Everyone was closer to average, you didn't have the small group that separated from the pack and controlled the awards

 

[BertMcDrai]

I was expecting a landslide win in this thread for McDavid had more contention... can't believe anybody voted otherwise...outside of Ovi and Malkin there was not much.

 

[KCC]

Crosby had a foe called injuries. That is the only difference in their art ross count

Shoulda, woulda, coulda. There’s no guarantee even if he was healthy that’s why you have to play the games.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

No, it means the talent pool was weak enough that players on that level won awards.

Not sure what 'on that level' is supposed to mean, particularly when you consider the fact that any of Benn, the Sedins, or Perry in their primes would be Top-10 forwards in the game today.

Everyone was closer to average, you didn't have the small group that separated from the pack and controlled the awards

In a scenario where there's actual competition for awards, you don't have a small group that separates from the pack to control the awards. A small group competing for all of the awards is the definition of barely-existent competition.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

I was expecting a landslide win in this thread for McDavid had more contention... can't believe anybody voted otherwise...outside of Ovi and Malkin there was not much.

I was expecting a landslide win in this thread for Crosby had more contention... can't believe anybody voted otherwise...outside of Draisaitl, MacKinnon, Kucherov, and Matthews, there's literally nobody else who McDavid has to compete with for Harts, Art Rosses, or Rocket Richards.

 

[BertMcDrai]

I was expecting a landslide win in this thread for Crosby had more contention... can't believe anybody voted otherwise...outside of Draisaitl, MacKinnon, Kucherov, and Matthews, there's literally nobody else who McDavid has to compete with for Harts, Art Rosses, or Rocket Richards.

I think before allowed to subscribe here they should make a test in math...4>2
We could save so much time.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

I think before allowed to subscribe here they should make a test in math...4>2
We could save so much time.

While the statement that 4>2 is correct, this would only be relevant if your assertion that "outside of Ovi and Malkin there was not much" were correct. It is not. In fact, it's an extremely incorrect assertion to suggest that Ovechkin and Malkin were the only players Crosby had to compete with. We know this because other players won Harts, Art Rosses, and Rocket Richards during Crosby's prime years. In contrast, the statement that McDavid only has to compete with Draisaitl, MacKinnon, Kucherov, and Matthews is correct because no other players have won any of any of those awards recently.

A better mathematical statement would be something like 10>4. This would accurately reflect the level of competition that Crosby and McDavid have had.

 

[IcedCapp]

sort of off-topic, but it's incredibly-easy to see how Crosby is infinitely better than McDavid and Ovechkin, simply based on the number of psychopaths who have to go into every single one of these threads and downplay Crosby's achievements simply to make their guys look better. If you're so sure McNeverGonnaWin and Putin'sYouth are better, why the insecurity, clown brigade?

 

[TheLegend27]

sort of off-topic, but it's incredibly-easy to see how Crosby is infinitely better than McDavid and Ovechkin, simply based on the number of psychopaths who have to go into every single one of these threads and downplay Crosby's achievements simply to make their guys look better. If you're so sure McNeverGonnaWin and Putin'sYouth are better, why the insecurity, clown brigade?

I prefer using sound reasoning and statistics instead of downplaying McDavid by stating "no cups" as if he plays tennis out there. No one needs to downplay Crosby's achievements to make 97 look better, McDavid is already better if you are (1) unbiased, (2) value statistics and eye tests, (3) value what happened instead of what ifs, and (4) use sound logic and reasoning when it comes to assessing individual ability. Most people who "downplay" Crosby do it out of response to certain people who downplay McDavid inadvertently or not.

 

[acor]

Corey Perry, Daniel Sedin and Jamie Benn were winning trophies during Crosby prime, and not only garbage trophies like Hart- here you can counter your Taylor Hall-but real, performance based trophies...

 

[JKG33]

Crosby, quite easily. The entirety of his career was spent against the greatest goal scorer of all time.

Sure there was a much greater drop off after Ovi and Malkin, where McDavid has a bunch of great players to compete with (Drai, Mac, Kuch, Eichel) none of them are at the level Ovi was

 

[TheLegend27]

While the statement that 4>2 is correct, this would only be relevant if your assertion that "outside of Ovi and Malkin there was not much" were correct. It is not. In fact, it's an extremely incorrect assertion to suggest that Ovechkin and Malkin were the only players Crosby had to compete with. We know this because other players won Harts, Art Rosses, and Rocket Richards during Crosby's prime years. In contrast, the statement that McDavid only has to compete with Draisaitl, MacKinnon, Kucherov, and Matthews is correct because no other players have won any of any of those awards recently.

A better mathematical statement would be something like 10>4. This would accurately reflect the level of competition that Crosby and McDavid have had.

Just because others have won Harts and Rosses in Crosby’s time doesn’t mean the competition was more challenging. It reflects a lack of presence of a generational talent during that time span. Only Ovi and Malkin(maybe Kane too) are on the level of Matthews, Kucherov, Mackinnon, and Drai which is why we’re only discussing them. McDavid didn’t allow Huberdeau & Giroux to win Art Rosses and I don’t understand how he’s being penalized for this. 8 players of that 10 number you listed wouldn’t have won Art Rosses had McDavid played during their time. Between 1981-2001 only three players won Art Rosses so I guess Crosby’s competition was better than someone who played during Gretzky, Mario, Jagr’s time since 10>3 right?. Logical fallacy.

 

[authentic]

Benn outscored Crosby the following year as well. The storm aligned twice?.

Years in question + following year:
2015, 2016:
Crosby: 169 pts
Benn: 176 pts

2022, 2023:
McDavid: 276 pts
Huberdeau:170 pts

Crosby was nowhere near McDavid's level of driving offense those seasons, a Benn-level player wouldn't outscore him once, never mind twice in a row. Crosby had the perfect period to dominate hardware, with a lack of top-end talent from 2011-2017 yet the result excuse or not was 1 single win. Even if we generously assume McDavid gets injured the same as Crosby in 11,12,13, I don't see him losing in 2015, 2016, and 2017.

Yeah the stars aligned for Crosby during that timeframe with the concussions, misdiagnosed neck issues and wrist injuries that all saw him miss substantial time or negatively affect his play. It’s not hard to see a relatively healthy Crosby sweeping awards here.