Who had the tougher competition for individual awards, Crosby or McDavid?

[895]

Yeah I get that this question presupposes that Crosby and McDavid are the main characters of their eras and I don’t agree with that but let’s just not argue that point right now.

Crosby’s competition
Ovechkin, Malkin, Kane, Sedins, MSL, etc

McDavid’s competition
Draisaitl, MacKinnon, Matthews, Kucherov, etc.

Click to read more...

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Crosby had a foe called injuries. That is the only difference in their art ross count

 

[daver]

You can rate each player on their peak/prime level but many players in the OP missed time. I don't think peak Crosby or peak McDavid lose an Art Ross to the peak version of any of those players.

Crosby was going head to head with arguably the two best players, OV and Malkin, who were a year ahead and, like Crosby, reaching their primes early.

Ironically, McDavid is going head to head with players who despite being older, are reaching their peak.

All that being said, this thread will be pages and pages and pages of debating raw numbers with zero context.

 

[bobholly39]

Years Crosby was in the running for a Ross/Hart and competed directly against Ovechkin/Malkin include:

2009. Both Ovi and Malkin are a threat, Crosby finishes 3rd
2010. Only Ovi is a threat, Crosby finishes 2nd

Thats it. Twice, 2 years. Most years, either Crosby had a major injury and lost a lot of time (2008, 2011, 2012, 2013), or Ovi had a big down year (2007, 2011, 2012), or Malkin had either a big down year and/or injuries. Maybe you include 2013 there, since Crosby only missed 12 games - but in the end, those 12 games are 1/4 of the season, and I think everyone believes Crosby wins both Hart and Ross without injury.

Years McDavid was in the running for a Ross/Hart and competed with Kucherov, Drai, Mack or Matthews for awards include:

2018 - Kuch/Mack a threat. McDavid wins Ross, but Mack finishes ahead for Hart
2019 - Kucherov is a threat and wins, McDavid second
2020 - Drai + Mack a threat, McDavid loses out on both hart and ross
2021 - Drai is a threat (sort of), but McDavid so dominant he is clear #1
2022 - Matthews is a threat to hart, and beats McDavid. McDavid with Ross
2023 - McDavid with another dominant season to sweep Ross/Hart. But Drai/Kuch his biggest threats
2024 - Kucherov/Mack have an all-time year, beat McDavid to Ross/Hart. McDavid finishes 3rd
2025 - McDavid in the race for Hart/Ross - but top 3 in league right now are...Mack/Drai/Kuch

To answer the OP, this is 100% McDavid. The competition for top trophies like ross and hart has been absolutely incredible throughout his prime, and that's now for 8 years straight.

I think after Crosby/McDavid, Ovechkin is the 3rd best player here, and Malkin has a good argument for 4th (I probably have him 5th behind Kucherov by now). But - it's not about how good those two players are, it's about who was competing vs Crosby and McDavid every single year, and Crosby simply didn't have the same level of consistent competition.

 

[bobholly39]

Crosby had a foe called injuries. That is the only difference in their art ross count

Yes, I agree. But to answer OP, competition is still 100% better in McDavid's prime, with more threats, and who are having much more consistent primes than Ovi/Malkin did.

With no major injury for Crosby, here's how many Art Rosses he'd have:

2007 & 2014 - that's 2.
2008 - 50% chance. It's him or Ovechkin (i think Ovi wins Hart no matter what, but Ross is 50/50)
2011 - Crosby wins Ross, 99% chance
2012 - Crosby wins Ross, 75% chance (Malkin insane season, but Crosby is simply the clear better player in surrounding years - so it's logical to expect if he played a full year, he'd finish ahead)
2013 - Crosby wins Ross, 99% chance

So - that's 2 more for sure (2011 & 2013), and possibly a 5th and 6th (2008 & 2013) depending on how you like those odds. I'd personally say he finishes at 5.

I don't like counting 2015 (mumps, 5 games missed, 3 points behind Ross) because I don't consider 5 games a major injury. That's his fault for not winning it that year.

 

[DitchMarner]

Yes, I agree. But to answer OP, competition is still 100% better in McDavid's prime, with more threats, and who are having much more consistent primes than Ovi/Malkin did.

With no major injury for Crosby, here's how many Art Rosses he'd have:

2007 & 2014 - that's 2.
2008 - 50% chance. It's him or Ovechkin (i think Ovi wins Hart no matter what, but Ross is 50/50)
2011 - Crosby wins Ross, 99% chance
2012 - Crosby wins Ross, 75% chance (Malkin insane season, but Crosby is simply the clear better player in surrounding years - so it's logical to expect if he played a full year, he'd finish ahead)
2013 - Crosby wins Ross, 99% chance

So - that's 2 more for sure (2011 & 2013), and possibly a 5th and 6th (2008 & 2013) depending on how you like those odds. I'd personally say he finishes at 5.

I don't like counting 2015 (mumps, 5 games missed, 3 points behind Ross) because I don't consider 5 games a major injury. That's his fault for not winning it that year.

The three games McDavid missed because of injury this season may cost him the Ross in the end (suspensions are different). If he ends up losing by about three points, it can be said he likely would have won if not injured.

In 2020, he wasn't at 100% all year after the serious leg injury suffered in his last game of the 2019 season. He also played seven fewer games than Draisaitl. If he plays every game healthy, I'd say there's a good chance he takes the Ross.

So we're possibly talking about seven (which is more than you can give Crosby under the most generous scenarios) and he's only 28.

But who cares... injuries are part of hockey. What happened happened.

 

[daver]

Let's compare their careers head to head:

Years Crosby was in the running for a Ross/Hart and competed directly against Ovechkin/Malkin include:

2009. Both Ovi and Malkin are a threat, Crosby finishes 3rd
2010. Only Ovi is a threat, Crosby finishes 2nd

Thats it. Twice, 2 years. Most years, either Crosby had a major injury and lost a lot of time (2008, 2011, 2012, 2013), or Ovi had a big down year (2007, 2011, 2012), or Malkin had either a big down year and/or injuries. Maybe you include 2013 there, since Crosby only missed 12 games - but in the end, those 12 games are 1/4 of the season, and I think everyone believes Crosby wins both Hart and Ross without injury.

Years McDavid was in the running for a Ross/Hart and competed with Kucherov, Drai, Mack or Matthews for awards include:

2018 - Kuch/Mack a threat. McDavid wins Ross, but Mack finishes ahead for Hart
2019 - Kucherov is a threat and wins, McDavid second
2020 - Drai + Mack a threat, McDavid loses out on both hart and ross
2021 - Drai is a threat (sort of), but McDavid so dominant he is clear #1
2022 - Matthews is a threat to hart, and beats McDavid. McDavid with Ross
2023 - McDavid with another dominant season to sweep Ross/Hart. But Drai/Kuch his biggest threats
2024 - Kucherov/Mack have an all-time year, beat McDavid to Ross/Hart. McDavid finishes 3rd
2025 - McDavid in the race for Hart/Ross - but top 3 in league right now are...Mack/Drai/Kuch

To answer the OP, this is 100% McDavid. The competition for top trophies like ross and hart has been absolutely incredible throughout his prime, and that's now for 8 years straight.

I think after Crosby/McDavid, Ovechkin is the 3rd best player here, and Malkin has a good argument for 4th (I probably have him 5th behind Kucherov by now). But - it's not about how good those two players are, it's about who was competing vs Crosby and McDavid every single year, and Crosby simply didn't have the same level of consistent competition.

Not sure how other award winners besides OV and Malkin aren't "threats". Kane in 15/16 was as big of a "threat" as any season from Kucherov or Mac (save for last season but that is mildly debatable). At least one of Stamkos' Richards were also a threat as much as Matthews' was. You make it seem like Mac and Kucherov simply playing a full season is a threat.

Let's put it this way. McDavid has two seasons that are the best of his era that would have beaten the best of Mac, Kucherov, OV and Malkin.

His next best season (23/24) loses to OV's best 2 seasons, arguably a 3rd, Malkin's 11/12, and Kane's 15/16 season.

It is clear that Crosby could have had the same amount of Rosses as McDavid by age 28; and that would have nothing to do with the quality of competition.

 

[BraveCanadian]

McDavid

 

[Midnight Judges]

If you dumb it down to just the Art Ross (as the Crosby fans did above), then McDavid is the answer.

But that isn't the question in the OP. The OP is about "individual hardware" which includes Pearsons, Harts, Rosses, Rockets, Selkes, Norrisses (not applicable), and maybe Calders.

Ovechkin won 9 Rockets. McDavid doesn't have any competition that has an individual award on lockdown in that manner.

Nor does McDavid have any competition that won more Harts than him, whereas Ovechkin won more Harts than Crosby.

Ovechkin has:
9 Rockets
1 Art Ross
3 Harts
3 Pearson/Lindsays
1 Calder

None of McDavid's competition has that kind of HW. Of course, neither does Sidney Crosby. Are we predicting that there is a player who is going to win substantially more hardware than McDavid - as Ovechkin did above Crosby?

 

[Midnight Judges]

Years Crosby was in the running for a Ross/Hart and competed directly against Ovechkin/Malkin include:

2009. Both Ovi and Malkin are a threat, Crosby finishes 3rd
2010. Only Ovi is a threat, Crosby finishes 2nd

Thats it. Twice, 2 years.

Sidney Crosby was in the NHL every year from 2005 to present. The competition doesn't cease to exist just because Crosby wasn't among the league leaders in a given year during his career.

You didn't even consistently apply that standard. When McDavid missed games in 2020, shouldn't Draisaitl disappear?

 

[Midnight Judges]

2012 - Crosby wins Ross, 75% chance (Malkin insane season, but Crosby is simply the clear better player in surrounding years

That is not accurate.

Malkin had a 1.45 PPG but also a .67 GPG over 75 games vs a 1.56 PPG and .42 GPG for Crosby in 2013 (36 games).

Their contributions on a per-game basis are quite comparable, except Malkin sustained it for 75 games, which is substantially more difficult than 36 games.

Here in real life there is a 0% chance that Crosby wins the 2012 Art Ross. I can say this with confidence because 2012 already happened.

 

[bobholly39]

Sidney Crosby was in the NHL every year from 2005 to present. The competition doesn't cease to exist just because Crosby wasn't among the league leaders in a given year during his career.

You didn't even consistently apply that standard. When McDavid missed games in 2020, shouldn't Draisaitl disappear?

McDavid missed 7 games out of 71 in 2020. I don't consider that a "major injury", same reason I don't consider Crosby missing 5 games in 2015 a "major injury".

Crosby missed 12 games, but in a 48 game season, which is 25% in 2013. So, that's significant. 2008, 2011 and 2012 are also significant for Crosby.

Good on McDavid for good fortune and not really having any major injury/missed time in his prime. His only real major one was in his rookie season.

My argument was - there aren't many years Crosby was in the running for end of year awards where Malkin and Ovechkin were directly competing against him for Ross/Hart. Most years one or two of the 3 players were either injured, or had a major off year. In contrast - there have been a ton of instances where Drai, Mack, Kuch and even Matthews directly compete vs McDavid for Ross and/or Hart.

That is not accurate.

Malkin had a 1.45 PPG but also a .67 GPG over 75 games vs a 1.56 PPG and .42 GPG for Crosby in 2013 (36 games).

Their contributions on a per-game basis are quite comparable, except Malkin sustained it for 75 games, which is substantially more difficult than 36 games.

Here in real life there is a 0% chance that Crosby wins the 2012 Art Ross. I can say this with confidence because 2012 already happened.

Yes, it is accurate. What I mean by surrounding years is:

Crosby was clearly better than Malkin in 2010, and 2011. And also in 2013 and 2014. So 2 years before and after 2012, Crosby was better. And considering his ppg was also very high in the 22 games he played in 2012 - I think there's a very reasonable chance that if Crosby had played the full 2012 season healthy, he would have outproduced Malkin.

 

[BlueSeal]

In comparison, tougher competition? Crosby, by far. McDavid's stats should have him picking up Cups like it was a cake walk, but his problem isn't tougher competition, it's showing up in spades almost every single time anywhere and everywhere except for when it matters the most.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

Crosby , but McDavid is better than sid already so who cares

 

[BlueSeal]

Crosby , but McDavid is better than sid already so who cares

There's no argument there, when it comes to comparison, McDavid is better than everyone but how does that matter if being better gets the Cup hoisted in everyone else's hand but yours? All McDavid had to do was show up in game 7 and it would have easily been a wrap. Mind you that doesn't diminish the fact that he's an absolute beast and the best player that played, but how can you be The Best (in caps) if you can't beat the best?

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

There's no argument there, when it comes to comparison, McDavid is better than everyone but how does that matter if being better gets the Cup hoisted in everyone else's hand but yours? All McDavid had to do was show up in game 7 and it would have easily been a wrap. Mind you that doesn't diminish the fact that he's an absolute beast and the best player that played, but how can you be The Best (in caps) if you can't beat the best?

Its hockey , nobody wins alone , unless you're a goalie or something.

Personally I don't think the oilers are a great team so maybe I see it differently

 

[Midnight Judges]

My argument was - there aren't many years Crosby was in the running for end of year awards where Malkin and Ovechkin were directly competing against him for Ross/Hart.

Crosby, and all players, are competing by virtue of being in the NHL.

The world does not stop turning just because Sidney Crosby wasn't among the best players in a given season.

Crosby missing games tells us precisely nothing about his competition. The singular purpose of pretending otherwise is too denigrate Ovechkin.

There is zero chance anyone is making this argument for Stamkos - claiming Crosby wasn't good competition because 2014 doesn't count. So at that point a Stamkos fan could claim Crosby was a nobody because he won zero Art Rosses that count during Stamkos's career? That is not good logic dude.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Crosby bare mimimum has 4 right now with no injuries. Every sane person knows 11 n 13 were locks. In 2008 he was tied for the lead with 63 points in 45 games and was 6 points up on ovechkin the eventual winner. If healthy all year he likely wins. 2012. 24 year old peak crosby would have given malkin serious trouble. Do ill leave it at 4 art ross and good chance at 6.

 

[qc14]

If you dumb it down to just the Art Ross (as the Crosby fans did above), then McDavid is the answer.

But that isn't the question in the OP. The OP is about "individual hardware" which includes Pearsons, Harts, Rosses, Rockets, Selkes, Norrisses (not applicable), and maybe Calders.

Ovechkin won 9 Rockets. McDavid doesn't have any competition that has an individual award on lockdown in that manner.

Nor does McDavid have any competition that won more Harts than him, whereas Ovechkin won more Harts than Crosby.

Ovechkin has:
9 Rockets
1 Art Ross
3 Harts
3 Pearson/Lindsays
1 Calder

None of McDavid's competition has that kind of HW. Of course, neither does Sidney Crosby. Are we predicting that there is a player who is going to win substantially more hardware than McDavid - as Ovechkin did above Crosby?

I see it as McDavid has had a greater variety and probably quantity of challengers rotating every year but only Crosby has actually gone up against another top 10 player of all time and McDavid hasn't.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Crosby was clearly better than Malkin in 2010, and 2011. And also in 2013 and 2014.

So was 2012 Malkin. Your barometer assumes all those other Malkin seasons were similar in accomplishment - which is obviously untrue. So it's not a very good barometer.

 

[Midnight Judges]

In 2008 he was tied for the lead with 63 points in 45 games and was 6 points up on ovechkin the eventual winner.

That is sleight of hand.

By the end of the season Ovechkin had the higher PPG and a way higher GPG, while being far more physical and doing it all with a lesser supporting cast.

 

[Regal]

That is sleight of hand.

By the end of the season Ovechkin had the higher PPG and a way higher GPG, while being far more physical and doing it all with a lesser supporting cast.

Ovechkin would have won the Hart, but it’s not impossible Crosby could have won the Art Ross. Their PPG difference was 0.01. He wasn’t suggesting that was a likely Art Ross, but a possible one.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

That is sleight of hand.

By the end of the season Ovechkin had the higher PPG and a way higher GPG, while being far more physical and doing it all with a lesser supporting cast.

Crosby returned after missing 20+games played 7 which lowered his ppg. Before injury he was clearly ahead. Like I said. Ovechkin won his only art ross when crosby went down while leading the league.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Crosby returned after missing 20+games played 7 which lowered his ppg. Before injury he was clearly ahead. Like I said. Ovechkin won his only art ross when crosby went down while leading the league.

This thread is about the quality of competition.

All the 'Crosby is much better in my imagination than in real life!' posts really have nothing to do with anything.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Ovechkin would have won the Hart, but it’s not impossible Crosby could have won the Art Ross. Their PPG difference was 0.01. He wasn’t suggesting that was a likely Art Ross, but a possible one.

Maintaining a pace for 50-some games is easier than for 80 games. So even with your point, it's quite generous to assume the player with the lower PPG would have increased it by playing ~ 55% more games.

These types of extrapolations are selectively applied, and not really relevant to the thread which is intended as a comparison of Ovechkin/Malkin/Kane/Sedins/Datsyuk/Stamkos/MSL/ to Kucherov/Draisaitl/MacKinnon/Matthews.