Who are your 5th -10th best players of all time, today?

[Dennis Bonvie]

You think it's easy to win 6 Norris Trophies in the span of 7 seasons?

Bourque only finished 2nd to Coffey once.

I'm not understanding why my friends here would rate Hull, Richard, or even Beliveau above Jagr or McDavid. Just talking about forwards, what's the justification for those?

I didn't put McDavid in my top 10, but I've got no problem with anyone that does.

If I'm still around for the next top 100 pretty sure he will be in my top 10 then.

 

[Ben Grimm]

5. Sidney Crosby
6. Patrick Roy
7. Jean Beliveau
8. Howie Morenz
9. Maurice Richard
10. Bobby Hull ...

I can't argue with this. I have Bourque 11th and don't want to read any Bs fans replies. @TheDevilMadeMe

 

[Sentinel]

Still Beliveau for me. 10 Cups as best player on two dynasties that played different styles, captain of second dynasty.

5. Beliveau
6. Roy (one of three most clutch players ever, best career ever)
7. Richard (one of three most clutch players ever, 2nd best adj goalscorer ever)
8. Hull
9. Morenz or Crosby (tough one... I'll take Morenz for now... best player ever up to Howe, and only then by career length... Crosby knocking on door)
10. Bourque

Lidstrom lots of Norrises but little competition.

Beliveau OTOH has one Art Ross and two Harts. Fewer than Ovechkin (without even bringing in the Richards).

Cups is a team accomplishment.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Welcome to binary world, for all of your binary needs...

Crosby has led the league in goals twice, and assists once. Crosby is best characterized as a goal-scoring center instead of a playmaking center.

 

[tinyzombies]

Welcome to binary world, for all of your binary needs...

Crosby has led the league in goals twice, and assists once. Crosby is best characterized as a goal-scoring center instead of a playmaking center.

Crosby can do anything you need. He was also a power-v-power center who could play stifling defense. Depends on the style of play, like most of the greats he can do anything you want. Can probably play defense if needed.

Beliveau OTOH has one Art Ross and two Harts. Fewer than Ovechkin (without even bringing in the Richards).

Cups is a team accomplishment.

He won the Conn Smythe in 65, would have won again in his last year if not for Dryden. And in pre-Hart consideration, he would have won in 56 also according to some historians. That puts him up with Gretz, Roy, Rocket as amongst the greatest playoff performers ever. Crosby can't touch that. Hull can't touch that. His own teammates say he was better than Harvey. Ovie isn't close to that. Morenz and Lafleur didn't have a long enough peak. Not sure who else you got. Maybe Roy..

 

[daver]

He won the Conn Smythe in 65, would have won again in his last year if not for Dryden. And in pre-Hart consideration, he would have won in 56 also according to some historians. That puts him up with Gretz, Roy, Rocket as amongst the greatest playoff performers ever. Crosby can't touch that. Hull can't touch that. His own teammates say he was better than Harvey. Ovie isn't close to that. Morenz and Lafleur didn't have a long enough peak. Not sure who else you got. Maybe Roy..

Crosby has the best playoff resume of his era. He would have won in 2009 if not for Malkin. That would have been three CSs out of four Cups vs. three out of ten for Beliveau. Crosby also has two Olympic Golds and a World Cup.

I don't mind giving the edge to Beliveau but let's not let the narrative get too crazy.

 

[tinyzombies]

Crosby has the best playoff resume of his era. He would have won in 2009 if not for Malkin. That would have been three CSs out of four Cups vs. three out of ten for Beliveau. Crosby also has two Olympic Golds and a World Cup.

I don't mind giving the edge to Beliveau but let's not let the narrative get too crazy.

I love Crosby but Beliveau also has 2 Harts, 1 pre-Hart that he would have won, and 4 runner-ups. That's 7 total Hartlike seasons. Crosby has 5, and unlikely to get another but I hope he does. Crosby's defense is definitely better, they have similar playoff points/game, Beliveau has 10+ more adjusted goals per season, assists similar. And again, those 10 Cups.

Crosby has to do a little more to equal all that I think.

 

[Sentinel]

I love Crosby but Beliveau also has 2 Harts, 1 pre-Hart that he would have won, and 4 runner-ups. That's 7 total Hartlike seasons. Crosby has 5, and unlikely to get another but I hope he does. Crosby's defense is definitely better, they have similar playoff points/game, Beliveau has 10+ more adjusted goals per season, assists similar. And again, those 10 Cups.

Crosby has to do a little more to equal all that I think.

Sorry, what "pre-Hart"? Last I checked, Beliveau did not start his career before the 1924.

He has two Hart and one Art Ross. Period.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Beliveau being a Hart finalist 7 times demonstrates his prime better than the just one Hart. Only Gretzky and Howe have more.

 

[tinyzombies]

Sorry, what "pre-Hart"? Last I checked, Beliveau did not start his career before the 1924.

He has two Hart and one Art Ross. Period.

You have a charming. Personality did anyone ever tell you that?

 

[tinyzombies]

Sorry, what "pre-Hart"? Last I checked, Beliveau did not start his career before the 1924.

He has two Hart and one Art Ross. Period.

Not a pre-Hart, a revised Hart. He should have won one that was awarded elsewhere. That makes 7 Hart worthy finishes. Crosby has 5. And Beliveau is far ahead in ES goals and of course Cups. It’s not close for me, but Crosby isn’t done.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Not a pre-Hart, a revised Hart. He should have won one that was awarded elsewhere. That makes 7 Hart worthy finishes. Crosby has 5. And Beliveau is far ahead in ES goals and of course Cups. It’s not close for me, but Crosby isn’t done.

Crosby hart finishes are very similar to beliveaus but in a much tougher Era. 1,1,2,2 2,2,3 4,5 seems to be more than 5 hart worthy finishes

 

[The Panther]

I have to say, I think putting Crosby and Roy at positions 5 and 6 is faintly ludicrous... Patrick Roy had, like, 10 seasons in a row---in his prime---when he failed to be a season-end All Star, yet he's the greatest goalie of all time? Just no.

But I don't have any strong opinions about these ranking things, so I'm going to back away now...

 

[tinyzombies]

Crosby hart finishes are very similar to beliveaus but in a much tougher Era. 1,1,2,2 2,2,3 4,5 seems to be more than 5 hart worthy finishes

Ok, so Beliveau had no other finishes other than 1-2?

I have to say, I think putting Crosby and Roy at positions 5 and 6 is faintly ludicrous... Patrick Roy had, like, 10 seasons in a row---in his prime---when he failed to be a season-end All Star, yet he's the greatest goalie of all time? Just no.

But I don't have any strong opinions about these ranking things, so I'm going to back away now...

Roy has three of the greatest playoff runs ever and his longevity and the teams he had give him flashy rs numbers but I’m with you. Hasek was the best pre-profly goalie.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Here's how Roy and Hasek rank in Goals Versus Average (which combines save percentage with workload):

• Roy - 1st (1989), 1st (1990), 1st (1992), 2nd (1988), 2nd (1991), 2nd (2002), 3rd (1987), 3rd (1994), 3rd (1997), 5th (1998), 6th (2000), 6th (2003), 7th (1993), 7th (1996), 7th (1999), 10th (1995)
• Hasek - 1st (1995), 1st (1996), 1st (1997), 1st (1998), 1st (1999), 2nd (2001), 2nd (1994), 7th (2006), 8th (2000), 10th (2002)

If we cancel out similar finishes (and I'll also cancel out a 7th for Roy with an 8th for Hasek), and we're left with:

• Roy - 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 6th, 7th
• Hasek - 1st, 1st

There's a much wider range in how goalies perform from year to year, compared to skaters. Roy brought enormous value to his teams by being consistently excellent year after year. From 1987 to 2003 (a span of 17 seasons), he placed lower than 7th in GVA only twice. I'm not saying that's the same as Gordie Howe with 20 straight years in the top five in scoring, or Ray Bourque with 19 out of 22 seasons placing in the top five in Norris voting - but it's not far off either. Would you trade someone with two scoring titles and little else (ie Dickie Moore) for someone who was a top 7 scorer eight times (ie Joe Sakic)?

Just to show Roy's consistency. From 1980 to 2022, here's how many times each goalie placed 7th or higher in GVA (granted an arbitrary cutoff) - Roy did it 15 times. Hasek and Luongo are next at 8 times. Lundqvist and Vanbiesbrouck did it 7 times. Brodeur 6 times. Then Joseph, Barrasso, Hrudey and Moog five times each. It's a very tough standard (Belfour and Price don't even qualify).

You can say I'm being disingenuous because Hasek clearly peaked higher. And that's true. Hasek has all five of the highest seasons in GVA between them (then Roy has 9 of the next 12). Can you argue that Hasek's peak trumps anything Roy ever did? Possibly. If the question is who's the "better" or more naturally talented goalie, I think it's almost impossible to choose Roy.

But if the question is "greatest" (which is generally how we make our top X lists), I'd go with Roy. Hasek has the higher peak, but Roy ends up ahead in career GVA. He was much more consistent from year to year (which is rare for a goalie). He still led the league in GVA three times (so he wasn't a compiler - and nobody else from 1980 onwards has done this more than twice). And Roy's playoff resume is vastly superior (where, adjusted for era, he stopped the puck more effectively than Hasek, over a much larger number of games).

 

[tinyzombies]

Here's how Roy and Hasek rank in Goals Versus Average (which combines save percentage with workload):

• Roy - 1st (1989), 1st (1990), 1st (1992), 2nd (1988), 2nd (1991), 2nd (2002), 3rd (1987), 3rd (1994), 3rd (1997), 5th (1998), 6th (2000), 6th (2003), 7th (1993), 7th (1996), 7th (1999), 10th (1995)
• Hasek - 1st (1995), 1st (1996), 1st (1997), 1st (1998), 1st (1999), 2nd (2001), 2nd (1994), 7th (2006), 8th (2000), 10th (2002)

If we cancel out similar finishes (and I'll also cancel out a 7th for Roy with an 8th for Hasek), and we're left with:

• Roy - 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 6th, 7th
• Hasek - 1st, 1st

There's a much wider range in how goalies perform from year to year, compared to skaters. Roy brought enormous value to his teams by being consistently excellent year after year. From 1987 to 2003 (a span of 17 seasons), he placed lower than 7th in GVA only twice. I'm not saying that's the same as Gordie Howe with 20 straight years in the top five in scoring, or Ray Bourque with 19 out of 22 seasons placing in the top five in Norris voting - but it's not far off either. Would you trade someone with two scoring titles and little else (ie Dickie Moore) for someone who was a top 7 scorer eight times (ie Joe Sakic)?

Just to show Roy's consistency. From 1980 to 2022, here's how many times each goalie placed 7th or higher in GVA (granted an arbitrary cutoff) - Roy did it 15 times. Hasek and Luongo are next at 8 times. Lundqvist and Vanbiesbrouck did it 7 times. Brodeur 6 times. Then Joseph, Barrasso, Hrudey and Moog five times each. It's a very tough standard (Belfour and Price don't even qualify).

You can say I'm being disingenuous because Hasek clearly peaked higher. And that's true. Hasek has all five of the highest seasons in GVA between them (then Roy has 9 of the next 12). Can you argue that Hasek's peak trumps anything Roy ever did? Possibly. If the question is who's the "better" or more naturally talented goalie, I think it's almost impossible to choose Roy.

But if the question is "greatest" (which is generally how we make our top X lists), I'd go with Roy. Hasek has the higher peak, but Roy ends up ahead in career GVA. He was much more consistent from year to year (which is rare for a goalie). He still led the league in GVA three times (so he wasn't a compiler - and nobody else from 1980 onwards has done this more than twice). And Roy's playoff resume is vastly superior (where, adjusted for era, he stopped the puck more effectively than Hasek, over a much larger number of games).

Now look at the teams each played on.

 

[daver]

Not a pre-Hart, a revised Hart. He should have won one that was awarded elsewhere. That makes 7 Hart worthy finishes. Crosby has 5. And Beliveau is far ahead in ES goals and of course Cups. It’s not close for me, but Crosby isn’t done.

Let's deal with some statistical realities:

Crosby's Top Ten Art Ross placings in terms of % behind the leaders (#1, #2) are clearly superior to Beliveau's. He stands apart from his peers moreso than Beliveau stood apart from his peers in terms of Top 3, Top 5 and Top 10 Art Ross placings.

To not recognize that finishing in the Top 3 Top 5, or Top 10 of a peer group that is six times larger is likely more impressive (and is proven once you take a closer look) is disingenuous.

The same thinking applies to Hart finishes, Crosby's Hart finishes should be viewed as more impressive as he stands apart from his peers moreso than Beliveau stood apart from his peers in terms of Top 3, Top 5 and Top 10 Hart placings.

The same thinking can be applied to Cup wins. It is disingenuous to think that comparing Cup wins straight up from a six team league (actually a three team league for significant amount of time) vs. a 30 team league is statistically disingenuous.

Crosby's peer in per game offensive impact is Howe, not Beliveau.

 

[daver]

I have to say, I think putting Crosby and Roy at positions 5 and 6 is faintly ludicrous... Patrick Roy had, like, 10 seasons in a row---in his prime---when he failed to be a season-end All Star, yet he's the greatest goalie of all time? Just no.

But I don't have any strong opinions about these ranking things, so I'm going to back away now...

I am really impressed with the case you have laid out here. I think the "Crosby at #5" crowd has some serious reconsidering to do.

 

[The Panther]

Here's how Roy and Hasek rank in Goals Versus Average (which combines save percentage with workload):

• Roy - 1st (1989), 1st (1990), 1st (1992), 2nd (1988), 2nd (1991), 2nd (2002), 3rd (1987), 3rd (1994), 3rd (1997), 5th (1998), 6th (2000), 6th (2003), 7th (1993), 7th (1996), 7th (1999), 10th (1995)
• Hasek - 1st (1995), 1st (1996), 1st (1997), 1st (1998), 1st (1999), 2nd (2001), 2nd (1994), 7th (2006), 8th (2000), 10th (2002)

If we cancel out similar finishes (and I'll also cancel out a 7th for Roy with an 8th for Hasek), and we're left with:

• Roy - 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 6th, 7th
• Hasek - 1st, 1st

There's a much wider range in how goalies perform from year to year, compared to skaters. Roy brought enormous value to his teams by being consistently excellent year after year. From 1987 to 2003 (a span of 17 seasons), he placed lower than 7th in GVA only twice. I'm not saying that's the same as Gordie Howe with 20 straight years in the top five in scoring, or Ray Bourque with 19 out of 22 seasons placing in the top five in Norris voting - but it's not far off either. Would you trade someone with two scoring titles and little else (ie Dickie Moore) for someone who was a top 7 scorer eight times (ie Joe Sakic)?

Just to show Roy's consistency. From 1980 to 2022, here's how many times each goalie placed 7th or higher in GVA (granted an arbitrary cutoff) - Roy did it 15 times. Hasek and Luongo are next at 8 times. Lundqvist and Vanbiesbrouck did it 7 times. Brodeur 6 times. Then Joseph, Barrasso, Hrudey and Moog five times each. It's a very tough standard (Belfour and Price don't even qualify).

You can say I'm being disingenuous because Hasek clearly peaked higher. And that's true. Hasek has all five of the highest seasons in GVA between them (then Roy has 9 of the next 12). Can you argue that Hasek's peak trumps anything Roy ever did? Possibly. If the question is who's the "better" or more naturally talented goalie, I think it's almost impossible to choose Roy.

But if the question is "greatest" (which is generally how we make our top X lists), I'd go with Roy. Hasek has the higher peak, but Roy ends up ahead in career GVA. He was much more consistent from year to year (which is rare for a goalie). He still led the league in GVA three times (so he wasn't a compiler - and nobody else from 1980 onwards has done this more than twice). And Roy's playoff resume is vastly superior (where, adjusted for era, he stopped the puck more effectively than Hasek, over a much larger number of games).

For me, it's all about Jacques Plante. He's the God of goalies.

Now look at the teams each played on.

I think both Roy and Hasek in certain seasons benefitted from clubs that were tilted defensively. The difference, though, is that Roy's club was already built that way when he joined, whereas Hasek's wasn't. Hasek's club changed its style to be built around the defense/goaltending.

But your comment is correct in one sense -- in Montreal, Roy's team was stacked with great defensemen and two-way forwards who sheltered him a great deal. At no time in his prime years did Hasek play behind great defensemen (Sabres did have some very good two-way forwards).

Roy was no longer dominant once he played for a club that was more balanced in both ends, and actually quite offensive at times (meaning Colorado). But Hasek was completely dominant when playing for a club with no big names aside from him. Hasek was completely dominant in 1993-94, and Buffalo #1 defensively, but if you look at the names of the Dmen, it's basically a bunch of nobodies, with the top guys arguably being Petr Svoboda and Craig Muni.

 

[Mohar Ikram]

My top 10 is always those guys who has done something that unique to them and almost impossible to replicate. The big four are pristine so no more talks on them. Here is my other 6 and the reason.

5) M. Richard - Basically a god. The nation goes to war when he got banned. Still being worship until now in Q.

6) Beliveau - Pristine consistency. Never declines. Versatile gameplay. An epitome of class in the game (although he can play rough and tough too). SC most winningest man (17 times total up).

7) Crosby - Serial winner. Individual and team accolades. Injury prone but never bothers him in his greatness.

8) Ovechkin - Power and Goals. That's it. No one can ever top him on those two.

9) Red Kelly - Ultimate duo-job pro players (an MP during his playing days). Playing vastly different role and excel in both sides of the ice. D-men? Forward? Who cares. He won 4 SC playing on both position in two different clubs (sidenote - TML never sniffs a SCF since he retired).

10) Messier - Ultimate leader. The only man ever captained two franchise to SC glory. Has a leadership award named after him.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

5. Bobby Hull
6. Patrick Roy
7. Doug Harvey
8. Jean Béliveau
9. Maurice Richard
10. Howie Morenz

"But Hašek has six Vézinas" is becoming to this generation what "but Eddie Shore has four Harts" was to the previous one.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Of all the candidates outside the typical top 17ish, I find Red Kelly has the most convincing argument to join them.

Hard to rate a player when he split his career into two very different roles.

 

[The Macho King]

Of all the candidates outside the typical top 17ish, I find Red Kelly has the most convincing argument to join them.

Hard to rate a player when he split his career into two very different roles.

He's tough to rate for a few reasons. I am actually getting a bit more skeptical of him as time goes. Easy to rack up points headmanning the puck to Howe and Lindsay, and he was never a "stalwart" defender. And considering the value - wouldn't a coach rather have a great Dman on the ice for 25 minutes a night (either with Horton or behind him) than a second line C at 18-20?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

My top 10 is always those guys who has done something that unique to them and almost impossible to replicate. The big four are pristine so no more talks on them. Here is my other 6 and the reason.

5) M. Richard - Basically a god. The nation goes to war when he got banned. Still being worship until now in Q.

6) Beliveau - Pristine consistency. Never declines. Versatile gameplay. An epitome of class in the game (although he can play rough and tough too). SC most winningest man (17 times total up).

7) Crosby - Serial winner. Individual and team accolades. Injury prone but never bothers him in his greatness.

8) Ovechkin - Power and Goals. That's it. No one can ever top him on those two.

9) Red Kelly - Ultimate duo-job pro players (an MP during his playing days). Playing vastly different role and excel in both sides of the ice. D-men? Forward? Who cares. He won 4 SC playing on both position in two different clubs (sidenote - TML never sniffs a SCF since he retired).

10) Messier - Ultimate leader. The only man ever captained two franchise to SC glory. Has a leadership award named after him.

Really like Red Kely getting mentioned.

Not so much Messier, though.

5. Bobby Hull
6. Patrick Roy
7. Doug Harvey
8. Jean Béliveau
9. Maurice Richard
10. Howie Morenz

"But Hašek has six Vézinas" is becoming to this generation what "but Eddie Shore has four Harts" was to the previous one.

Yeah, I guess 6 Vezinas are about as relevant as 4 Hart trophies.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

5. Bobby Hull
6. Patrick Roy
7. Doug Harvey
8. Jean Béliveau
9. Maurice Richard
10. Howie Morenz

"But Hašek has six Vézinas" is becoming to this generation what "but Eddie Shore has four Harts" was to the previous one.

Yeah, imagine pointing out the fact that a goalie won 6 Vezinas in only 8 years against 2 other Top 5 all time goaltenders.

And its not just the "6 VeZiNaS", its the 2 Harts, 2 Pearsons, 1-1-2-3-3 Hart finishes