Who are your 5th -10th best players ever?

[ScaredStreit]

When people expand the all time list after the big 4 the names that you see often/frequently are

Bossy won 4 cups, Conn Smythe, lead the league in goals 2 times (would have been 5 if Gretzky didn't exist), one of the most consistent goal scorers in NHL history, one of 3 players to have 9 50+ goal seasons...and he was a complete player and played on the PK. All of this in just 9 full seasons.

If you want to argue he's not a top 10 of all time that's fine but suggesting that Bossy doesn't have a case for top 25 of all time is ridiculous.

 

[FoxyClean]

Hasek
Jagr
Messier
Crosby
Ovechkin
Lidstrom

 

[Jack Spider]

Top 5 players I saw live.

- Malkin prime
- Brodeur shutout in mtl
- Lemieux back from cancer in mtl
- Price
- Random Duchene game in jersey.

 

[LuckyDay]

Not sure how Mikita is over Hull

Stan over Bobby was a real argument back in the day.
Hull had the speed and shot but Mikita was the playmaker. He was even the one to discover the curved blade (by accident mind you after breaking it) and then had the trainer do it properly. Then they had Hull and everyone else do it and that's when Bobby became a head hunter.
There's many people that argued without Stan Mikita, there's no Bobby Hull.
Obviously Hull went onto a great WHA career and even litup Tretiak like a Christmas tree in that tournament chasing him out of the net without him.

 

[orby]

I think Crosby, Ovechkin, Hasek and Jagr are shoo-ins in whatever order you wanna put them. Pick 2 of Lidstrom, Beliveau, Brodeur, Bossy, Messier to round it out.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Stan over Bobby was a real argument back in the day.
Hull had the speed and shot but Mikita was the playmaker. He was even the one to discover the curved blade (by accident mind you after breaking it) and then had the trainer do it properly. Then they had Hull and everyone else do it and that's when Bobby became a head hunter.
There's many people that argued without Stan Mikita, there's no Bobby Hull.
Obviously Hull went onto a great WHA career and even litup Tretiak like a Christmas tree in that tournament chasing him out of the net without him.

Not many put Stan ahead of Bobby, including the all time rankings here and elsewhere.
Stan was an all time great though.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Ray Bourque was top 5 in Norris voting from year 1 of his career to year 17 of his career. 17 consecutive seasons. Then he did it 2 other times just for fun.

I think 11 top-2 finishes in a 22-year career.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I said this via PM yesterday but reposting here:

Oof, this is such a hard question. I used to have Beliveau firmly at 5th. In the past few years Crosby has begun to eclipse that position in my mind, which put have him at 5 and Beliveau at 6. The next natural choice is Hull, but then I realize I have no goalie in my top-7 which just feels wrong. So then I put Hasek at 7 and Hull at 8, which feels too low. And then I’m like, how is Ovechkin not over Hull by now? So if he goes at 8, Hull goes back to 9 which feels criminally low. At #10 I feel like there has to be a defenseman, because how am I gonna have only one defenseman in the top-10? I’m a Bourque over Harvey/Lidstrom guy, so he slots in there. And then I see McDavid coming up the ladder and don’t know what I’ll do in a few years.

This whole exercise makes me feel very conflicted

Agreed. That's exactly the issue. There are at least ten players who have legitimate case for 5-10 all-time:

• Forwards - Beliveau, Hull, Jagr, Ovechkin, Crosby, McDavid (and arguably Richard)
• Defensemen - Harvey, Bourque (and arguably Shore and Lidstrom)
• Goalies - Roy and Hasek

At a minimum that's ten names, and maybe as many as 13. There are only six spots. Anybody who makes a list is going to have to make some difficult choices.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Agreed. That's exactly the issue. There are at least ten players who have legitimate case for 5-10 all-time:

• Forwards - Beliveau, Hull, Jagr, Ovechkin, Crosby, McDavid (and arguably Richard)
• Defensemen - Harvey, Bourque (and arguably Shore and Lidstrom)
• Goalies - Roy and Hasek

At a minimum that's ten names, and maybe as many as 13. There are only six spots. Anybody who makes a list is going to have to make some difficult choices.

This demonstrates that “top 10” just an arbitrary number.

We have a Big Four because that is the reality. Maybe we should have a Big 13 instead of a top 10.

 

[Sundinisagod]

1. Gretzky
2. Lemieux
3. Orr
4. Howe
5. Crosby
6. Ovechkin
7. Sundin
8. Jagr
9. Hasek
10. Beliveau



McDavid at 7 in all seriousness.

 

[Shroud of Orrin]

It makes me sick to my guts; 5 Art Ross, 2 Hart’s and 2 Cups and no one ever says his name.

First guy to break 100 in ‘68-‘69. Without Phil, Canada’s identity suffers a major set back in ‘72. Shattered Hull’s single season goal record. I can go on and on…

In his prime time Espo was an absolute unit. Fearless. He had a profound impact on the game and still today does colour on Tampa games. An absolute hockey legend.

 

[voyageur]

Beliveau (Orr never beat his Canadiens in the playoffs), Bossy, Sakic, Messier, Lidstrom, Crosby.

 

[kugelbahn]

This demonstrates that “top 10” just an arbitrary number.

We have a Big Four because that is the reality. Maybe we should have a Big 13 instead of a top 10.

Maybe call it Next 10,
HO's next tier of players sounds good to me:
Beliveau, Hull, Jagr, Ovechkin, Crosby, McDavid, Harvey, Bourque, Roy, Hasek

 

[MessierII]

Hasek, Bourque, Jagr, Messier, Lidstrom

 

[Johnny Tomala]

Bobby Hull, Beliveau, Hašek, Jágr, Crosby.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Stan over Bobby was a real argument back in the day.
Hull had the speed and shot but Mikita was the playmaker. He was even the one to discover the curved blade (by accident mind you after breaking it) and then had the trainer do it properly. Then they had Hull and everyone else do it and that's when Bobby became a head hunter.
There's many people that argued without Stan Mikita, there's no Bobby Hull.
Obviously Hull went onto a great WHA career and even litup Tretiak like a Christmas tree in that tournament chasing him out of the net without him.

I recently read through hundreds of game reports for the Hawks in the 60s, including every single playoff game Hull played in.

The press opinion is pretty firmly for Hull over Mikita and I don't think it's particularly close.

 

[wetcoast]

In order:

5. McDavid
6. Hasek
7. Jagr
8. Crosby
9. Roy
10. Bourque

That's close to my 5 guys and I'll skip the order and put in Lidstrom instead of Bourque but I understand why Bourque/Lidstrom/Bobby Hull/Beliveau would be in there.

Not really sure how to slot goalies but those 2 are my top 2 goalies.

As for current guy aside from Crosby/McDavid, Ovi is somewhere in the low teens for me 10-15 and Makar might be the next guy that might track top 20 all time but it's early.

Some other guys also have a real outside shot but it's too early to tell and a lot has to go right for them still.

 

[wetcoast]

Bossy won 4 cups, Conn Smythe, lead the league in goals 2 times (would have been 5 if Gretzky didn't exist), one of the most consistent goal scorers in NHL history, one of 3 players to have 9 50+ goal seasons...and he was a complete player and played on the PK. All of this in just 9 full seasons.

If you want to argue he's not a top 10 of all time that's fine but suggesting that Bossy doesn't have a case for top 25 of all time is ridiculous.

The HOH section of these boards has him 36th and sure he could be a little bit higher but top 25 all time is an extremely high bar when one looks at it.

Also guys like Mack, Kuch and Drai are closing in fast on Bossy.

Thread 'Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time'

Nov 11, 2018

Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time

The following is the final list of the top hockey players of all-time as determined by 32 voting members of the History of Hockey community.

Report any errors to @quoipourquoi

Rank	Player	Position	Born	Nation	Birth City
1	Wayne Gretzky	C	1961	Canada	Brantford, Ontario
2	Gordie Howe	RW	1928	Canada	Floral...

[TBODY]

• quoipourquoi
• Replies: 999
• Forum: The History of Hockey

• 

 

[Lou Sassole]

Fair enough I suppose it's just that I would rank them very close to eachother, same amount of cups, both game winning goals in Olympics, captains of very successful powerhouse teams, more or less impeccable careers but they both simply lack that extra oumph for a slamdunk top 10 of all time for me. Both top 20 for certain.

Just have a hard time ranking Crosby in top 10 when there are like 5-6(if not more) forwards currently in the league you could argue had just as good of a peak and same for Lidström with the Prongers(granted ive never been convinced that Prongers Hart year was any better than the best years of Lidström, even though he did get the Trophy), Potvins etc of the world around.

No problem with ranking Crosby abit above but I just don't see a very strong case for it. Maybe I am just being abit of a Swedish homer I suppose although I usually don't consider myself one so that's why I was interested in hearing another point of view.

Wow, I'm not even a Crosby guy, I'm an Ovie guy, but you must be looking at points only, when you say "Peak".

 

[Video Nasty]

It makes me sick to my guts; 5 Art Ross, 2 Hart’s and 2 Cups and no one ever says his name.

First guy to break 100 in ‘68-‘69. Without Phil, Canada’s identity suffers a major set back in ‘72. Shattered Hull’s single season goal record. I can go on and on…

In his prime time Espo was an absolute unit. Fearless. He had a profound impact on the game and still today does colour on Tampa games. An absolute hockey legend.

Totally agree. The amount of players who did far less that get far more shine is pretty disgusting.

In addition to his 2 Harts, he was an additional three time finalist, won two Pearsons, won 6 retro Rockets in a row, and even led the league in assists three times to go with those 5 Art Rosses.

Basically ignored because of the wrongly perceived notion that Orr was the only reason he was great and because Gretzky came along too soon and demolished his records before they had time to take hold.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Richard (Former all time points and goals leader. Incredible in playoffs.)
Harvey (2nd best blueliner behind Orr)
Ovechkin (soon to be best all time goal scorer. Good chance he hits 1000 goals)
Crosby (Very close with Ovechkin. I could flip them)
Hasek (Only six years but at his peak was the best goalie ever)

McDavid is coming soon...

 

[maddskkilz]

I like what the poster above said about creating a demarcation between big 4 and the next best class.

I’m not quite the history buff but the names frequently mentioned are:

Forwards: Crosby, Beliveau, Bobby Hull, Jagr, McDavid, and I’ll throw in a few more names for consideration: Messier(?), Ovechkin, Sakic, Yzerman

Defenseman: Bourque, Lidstrom, Potvin

Goalies: Hasek, Roy

Basically after the big 4 who are the next batch of the most accomplished, skilled talented players?

I would say there’s no debate in net. But I’m sure some historians might submit Plante, Hall, or others. For my money I’m comfortable with Roy and Hasek being the only goalies.

On defense - both Bourque and Lidstrom were consistently the best of the best at their positions. Again, didn’t see Potvin but being the catalyst for 4 straight cups along with 3x Norris, 5x 1st team all star and 2x Norris runner up in his prime is pretty remarkable. Upon further thought I would exclude Potvin also.

Up front it’s much more nuanced and tricky.

Ovechkin - Best goal scorer ever

McDavid - Single greatest offensive talent since Gretzky / Lemieux

Crosby - Consistently excellent all-around playmaker, goal scorer and a winner

Leaving out Beliveau and Hull feels wrong so I would keep them in this class but not sure how / where to rank.

Messier, Sakic, and Yzerman probably don’t belong in this class but I could be convinced.


Forwards in order:
McDavid

Crosby

Jagr (ability to score goals and drive then play on some pretty barren Pittsburgh rosters was something else)

Ovechkin

Beliveau and Hull - NR

Are there others that should be in discussion?

 

[psycat]

Wow, I'm not even a Crosby guy, I'm an Ovie guy, but you must be looking at points only, when you say "Peak".

No?

 

[Donnie740]

Sid Crosby couldn’t even dominate his era - - incidentally, the WORST era by far in hockey history, as evidenced by hacks like Taylor Hall, Corky Perry and Jamie Benny winning Harts and Art Ross trophies. So Crosby is automatically excluded from any Top 10 all time discussion.

Fans who only started watching hockey in 2010 have no scope of reference. It’s the equivalent of someone who’s never travelled out of Ontario trying to discuss the Top 10 beaches in the world.

 

[daver]

Agreed. That's exactly the issue. There are at least ten players who have legitimate case for 5-10 all-time:

• Forwards - Beliveau, Hull, Jagr, Ovechkin, Crosby, McDavid (and arguably Richard)
• Defensemen - Harvey, Bourque (and arguably Shore and Lidstrom)
• Goalies - Roy and Hasek

At a minimum that's ten names, and maybe as many as 13. There are only six spots. Anybody who makes a list is going to have to make some difficult choices.

Pre-WWII - Morenz and Shore
O6 - Richard, Beliveau, Hull, Harvey
Post - '67 - Bourque, Roy, Jagr, Hasek
2000s - Lidstrom, Crosby, Ovechkin, McDavid

It does seem like it's the Next 13 (or 14 if you want to add Morenz); players that clearly stand out in their era.