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Who are your 5th -10th best players ever?

22Brad Park said:
Lidstrom was surrounded with better players then Ray Bourque was in Boston,yet Bourque is all time leader in pts among D men.Its a joke people don't have him in top 10 .
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That’s a strange way to compare them. Bourque played much of his career in a high scoring league while Lidstrom didn’t.

Also, you don’t need great teammates to put up big numbers. You need great teammates to win championships.
 
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Roy has to be in there due to the three Conn Smythes. Probably the most clutch player in the history of the game.

But Jacques Plante, from the same franchise, was arguably better.
6 cups, including 5 consecutive titles;
1 Hart;
7 Vezinas;
.920 save percentage while being a stand-up goalie in the 50s and 60s.
Popularized the mask;
and redefined the position by being active around his net and with his stick.

You also have Dryden, who stopped Bobby Orr and the Bruins powerhouse of 1971 as a rookie who won the Conn Smythe before the Calder, which is legit nuts. He then kept the net for the Montreal Canadiens dynasty during the rest of the decade.

So, let's say you can drop Dryden further down the list because of the short career.

There is no other goaltender in this tier except Hasek with his 3 Harts and Tretiak with the international success.

The questions now are : what is the value of these goaltenders in a top players of all-time list? Where do they rank? Should goalies have their own list, since the position is so different from skater?
 
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landy said:
They also played against 5 teams. But yes, so many people putting McDavid ahead of guys being key players winning 5+ Cups is wild. Shows how we only see todays players as relevant.
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Winning 5 cups in that era is equivalent to finishing first in your division now. We don't need to do the simple probability % comparisons do we?
 
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Toene said:
Roy has to be in there due to the three Conn Smythes. Probably the most clutch player in the history of the game.

But Jacques Plante, from the same franchise, was arguably better.
6 cups, including 5 consecutive titles;
1 Hart;
7 Vezinas;
.920 save percentage while being a stand-up goalie in the 50s and 60s.
Popularized the mask;
and redefined the position by being active around his net and with his stick.

You also have Dryden, who stopped Bobby Orr and the Bruins powerhouse of 1971 as a rookie who won the Conn Smythe before the Calder, which is legit nuts. He then kept the net for the Montreal Canadiens dynasty during the rest of the decade.

So, let's say you can drop Dryden further down the list because of the short career.

There is no other goaltender in this tier except Hasek with his 3 Harts and Tretiak with the international success.

The questions now are : what is the value of these goaltenders in a top players of all-time list? Where do they rank? Should goalies have their own list, since the position is so different from skater?
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Good post. Jacques Plante to me has to be one of the most underrated player ever. Legit hilarious when habs fans try to claim Price is even close to any of these 3 goalies. You could argue any of them at #1 all-time even though, realistically, I'd say it's still Hasek.
 
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Realgud said:
Good post. Jacques Plante to me has to be one of the most underrated player ever. Legit hilarious when habs fans try to claim Price is even close to any of these 3 goalies. You could argue any of them at #1 all-time even though, realistically, I'd say it's still Hasek.
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Carey Price - for ability - is absolutely phenomenal. In a science fiction expirement - run Carey Price's career side by side with Hasek, Roy and Plante in similar environments, similar teams, and with no major injuries - and Price will look really good. Not saying he'd be #1 (or even that he wouldn't definitely be #4 in this group), but he would do really well.

So when some Habs fan compare Price to some all-time goalies - I think there is a case to be made based on peak or actual ability that Price should rank very, very high.

Career? No, Carey Price is much farther down. Injuries hurt him tremendously - as did playing on a bad team all of his prime.
 
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There are some mega weird rankings posted on the first page.....

Here's how I have it:

5 Crosby
6 Roy
7 Jagr
8 Beliveau
9/10 Hasek/Bourque/Ovechkin in some order. Always have trouble ranking these. I really like Ovechkin's last few seasons, I'm re-assessing if I want to bump him all the way to #9, but I might.

I choose not to rank McDavid here yet. Mostly because I'm lazy, and it's easier to not rank him rather than try to figure out if half his career is better than the full careers of these guys. It's possible he already slots here, unsure. I do feel very confident he'll finish #5 minimum (though it's not guaranteed).
 
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wgknestrick said:
Winning 5 cups in that era is equivalent to finishing first in your division now. We don't need to do the simple probability % comparisons do we?
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Fine, go 2-3 Cups even. There is a long list of those guys from the 80-00's ahead of guys with zero Cups.
 
I always preferred the greatest by position. Really hard to compare a goalie to a forward.

Hasek maybe the best peak of all goalies but many wouldn’t put him in the top 5-10 because there are so many excellent players deserving

Also McDavid may be the most explosive player ever but Mario’s skill set was the best I’ve ever seen
 
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GMR said:
Maybe. But then you're moving someone else out. I have Crosby, McDavid, Jagr, Hasek, Roy, and Hull ahead of him. I'm also probably snubbing Beliveau, Lidstrom, Bourque, Harvey, Shore, Richard, and many others besides Ovechkin.

Being #1 in goal scoring is amazing but Brett Hull and Marcel Dionne are top 10 all time goal scorers and don't belong anywhere near the top 10 all time player list. You also have to factor overall skills, team success, trophies, etc.
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Honest question what separates Lidström from Crosby in your book? Because to me they are about as equal as players of different positions get. Neither have any all-time great peak to speak of, both outstanding careers and incredibly concistent(at a very, very high level of course).

For what it's worth I think neither is in my top 10 but then again I might place more value on peak than most. I just don't see how so many have Crosby as a shoein for top 10 while leaving players with very similiary accomplished careers outside.
 
psycat said:
Honest question what separates Lidström from Crosby in your book? Because to me they are about as equal as players of different positions get. Neither have any all-time great peak to speak of, both outstanding careers and incredibly concistent(at a very, very high level of course).

For what it's worth I think neither is in my top 10 but then again I might place more value on peak than most. I just don't see how so many have Crosby as a shoein for top 10 while leaving players with very similiary accomplished careers outside.
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Where have you been the last 20 years?
 
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GMR said:
Maybe. But then you're moving someone else out. I have Crosby, McDavid, Jagr, Hasek, Roy, and Hull ahead of him. I'm also probably snubbing Beliveau, Lidstrom, Bourque, Harvey, Shore, Richard, and many others besides Ovechkin.

Being #1 in goal scoring is amazing but Brett Hull and Marcel Dionne are top 10 all time goal scorers and don't belong anywhere near the top 10 all time player list. You also have to factor overall skills, team success, trophies, etc.
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Ovechkin has 18 individual trophies and has led one of the longest individual runs of team success in NHL history. Leave Ovi out of the top 10 fine, but to claim that it's because of trophies and team success ...
 
colchar said:
I am not considering goalies, just players.

In alphabetical order (5-15):
Bossy
Coffey
Crosby
Dionne
Jagr
Keon
Lafleur
McDavid
Richard
Robinson
Stevens
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Its your list but you got like 6 guys I dont think are viewed as top 25 players by most.

Bossy, Coffee, Keon, Robinson, Scott Stevens, Dionne

When people expand the all time list after the big 4 the names that you see often/frequently are

Crosby
Mcdavid
OV
Jagr
Lidstrom
Hasek
Bobby Hull
Bourque
Jean Beliveau
Harvey
Patrick Roy
Messier
Sakic
Yzermann
Shore
Mikita
Rocket Richard

Guys like Kucherov, Mackinnon, Draisaitl, Malkin, Brodeur, also get noted after that.

Lafleur and Bossy are in the top 30/40 but they get lost in the shuffle sometimes.
 
It's gotta be between jagr and Crosby for #5 and litterally its a coin flip imo. Maybe a little biased i lived jagr never been big on crosby

Way to many players that can slide in from 7-10 as well guess you could argue ovechkin with valid reason for 7 with him about to take the goal scoring title from gretzky

I'm a die hard oilers fan so mcdavid will be there but I don't think he fora the criteria to be included now
 
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