Whitecloud hit on Knies | Knies did not return to the game.

[Primary Assist]

Leafs fan perspective: not a dirty hit, not a malicious one either. Just a huge bummer of an outcome. Whitecloud was just making a hockey play

 

[Deviled]

Idk, I feel like the rule is broadly misunderstood. Basically the rule book says you can't only hit the head, but if you hit the head incidentally, or if they were in a different position and that would mean you it's ok.

48.1(ii) applies here; "Whether the opponent put himself in a vulnerable position by assuming a posture that made head contact on an otherwise full body check unavoidable."

Whitecloud approached from the front square - if knies' head isn't down he gets hit square in the chest, so it's a legal check. Compare that to the Reaves hit on Nurse - if Nurse's head was up, Reaves doesn't hit Nurse square in the body, he literally whiffs and hits air, so it's not a legal check.

Not sure if I necessarily agree with that, but the league has been relatively consistent with that standard to be honest. If the force is vectored through the center of mass, it's ok.

I agree with most of this.. except Whitecloud's positioning before the hit

He chose to hit Knies in the front of his body, it wasnt his only avenue to bodychecking him there. He could have easily chose to hit him on the side of Knies' body, sending him flying into the boards

Perhaps Knies' head makes contact with the boards if he did the latter; but that would not be on Whitecloud as it could have been (or was) from a front-facing hit

This distinction is what I think the league will focus on going forward. The head being down is a natural part of the sport that has been deemed wrong for a century now; its a puck on ice, its unavoidable.. having your head up for 100% of a game is unrealistic and shouldnt be punished with future CTE or head trauma

(Not insinuating you believe that last part, just stating why I think the league will make the change in the future)

 

[noncents]

When contact is made his feet are still on the ice.

People should just look at the rule... a hit to the head has to be both avoidable and the head has to be the main point of contact. EVEN if people grant the head is the main point of contact, the avoidable part has multiple criteria that all must be considered.

1. was the player PICKING the head as their target by either having a poor angle of attack (nope), poor timing (nope), or unnecessary upward or outward extension (he does rise up and leaves his feet after contact)

Mostly a no, it wasnt late, wasnt blind side, no arm extension. Only could argue he rose up into the hit but at contact he was not any higher than normal standing height.

2. Was the person being hit in a vulnerable position where a clean hit that would otherwise hit body would make head contact? (this has to be a no to be fulfilled)

Absolutely yes. Knies is leaning forward so any standard clean body check to his front is going to make contact with his head unless the hitter is significantly shorter than he is.

3. Did the person getting hit significantly change their body position going into the hit to make themselves vulnerable?

Nope, Knies was already low for a while and didnt lower his head as the hit happened.

So the only criteria that totally fulfils the "avoidable" provision is the third one, as Knies didnt change body position into the hit in a way that put himself in danger. Criteria 1 is very much a maybe. Every player is eligible to being hit with a clean hit. If they arent approached late or from a blind side or there isnt body extension that is done to specifically make head contact, its not a dirty hit. Criteria 2 is not met at all for being avoidable.

I would not interpret it as an illegal check to the head by the letter of the law. It COULD be interpreted as one if you are pretty charitable with the first criteria. The wording after 2014 was changed to remove the word "targeting". It used to be a hit where principle contact was head and it targeted the head. By that rule this absolutely isnt illegal since this isnt targeting. Now the rule is main point of contact (doesnt have to be first, has to be where majority impact is) is the head and is avoidable.

So a very charitable reading of the rule would make it a MAYBE, but it isnt anything like Reaves or Jeannot. In no world does it meet all criteria for being avoidable either. Maybe a minor penalty, but a major or suspension wouldnt make sense here. Since he didnt get a minor, if it looks like theres going to be a real injury then maybe a game could be argued, but I wouldnt go further than a fine myself (and only because a minor penalty wasnt assessed).

I personally wish this type of hit WAS against the rules though, that they moved towards an IIHF style "any head contact is an illegal hit" but I am a medical professional so I am biased.

the exact correct reading of the rule as it can be applied here. kudos

 

[iCanada]

I agree with most of this.. except Whitecloud's positioning before the hit

He chose to hit Knies in the front of his body, it wasnt his only avenue to bodychecking him there. He could have easily chose to hit him on the side of Knies' body, sending him flying into the boards

Perhaps Knies' head makes contact with the boards if he did the latter; but that would not be on Whitecloud as it could have been (or was) from a front-facing hit

This distinction is what I think the league will focus on going forward. The head being down is a natural part of the sport that has been deemed wrong for a century now; its a puck on ice, its unavoidable.. having your head up for 100% of a game is unrealistic and shouldnt be punished with future CTE or head trauma

(Not insinuating you believe that last part, just stating why I think the league will make the change in the future)

I think the way the rule is worded it doesn't actually matter if Whitecloud could theoretically hit him from a different angle and avoid the head - essentially if the head was up and you hit the body it's ok is what the rulebook states, regardless of if there is another possible approach or not.

Like I said - I don't know if I necessarily agree with it, but that does seem to be the way the NHL calls it with some consistency.

I agree that this probably leads to more head injuries than if they were to use a different standard.

My point is mostly that this is the way they seem to judge things, rightly or wrongly.

 

[BlueOil]

It's just you said it was biased. I thought that meant you knew the guy and what his biases were.

Turns out you didn't.

ah sorry, didn't pick up on the game you were playing without revealing it

he is biased in his conclusion, but i guess you were looking for a review of him and i definitely don't have that

 

[Golden_Jet]

I agree with most of this.. except Whitecloud's positioning before the hit

He chose to hit Knies in the front of his body, it wasnt his only avenue to bodychecking him there. He could have easily chose to hit him on the side of Knies' body, sending him flying into the boards

No he could not have, when they are coming at each other,
If he tried from the side he would of missed the hit, and Knies skates around him.

 

[cc]

the only question that should be asked is whether Whitecloud could have hit Knies without making contact to the head. If the answer is no, it's a "clean" hit

edit: also, there's a question whether Whitecloud jumped into the hit but video suggests that he did not

 

[BlueOil]

Omar is a huge leafs fan,

i did reference omar, who is a huge leafs fan, but the video is from someone else: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUmP2y6isXZ6OXYVOSyno2w

 

[iCanada]

No he could not have, when they are coming at each other,
If he tried from the side he would of missed the hit, and Knies skates around him.

Yeah I would generally agree that don't think the league would ever say you have to give up your ice to make a check.

 

[YukonCornelius]

Dont bother. The same types of fans argued until the sun went down that it was impossible to remove most football hits to the head and driving the quarterback into the ground

Whats funniest is its usually those who havent a single athletic gene in their body trying to tell others what the competitive 1% of world's athletes are capable of

Weird, pretty sure Biz has played before…

https://x.com/i/web/status/1859614276593524927

 

[Dreakmur]

While I agree that a player should expect to be hit in most situations on the ice, how they ate hit is what matters

Hypothetical: In a world going forward where any head contact (by the player, not by force) is made, and a penalty is assessed, players will adapt. In this example Whitecloud could have caught the player on his side versus hitting them in the chest

Hitting him on the side results in him slipping the check. You have to get in front of him to actually stop him.

This is not to insinuate hits to the chest are made illegal, but instead to show that hits on players with their head down are possible; just less powerful and more tactical

They are already possible. Changing the rule just makes bodychecking so impractical that it is functionally removed from the game.

It would take time for players to adjust to such a world but weve seen them do so in many other ways; just look to the 90s and earlier and the level of hits and head contact has already dropped, severely

The adjustment would be no hitting.

I have faith the league and its players will figure this delicate situation out without removing any or all types or bodychecking

It’s possible I’m wrong, but I don’t see the mechanics working.

 

[Bounces R Way]

This post couldnt be more wrong; you must be watching 80s highlights if you truly think that

Good riddance when you eventually give up watching the sport because its not man enough for you (someone who wouldnt have the balls nor ability to play it themselves)

Well the player wasn't penalized and isn't going to get suspended.. sooooo I'm all good. Maybe pickleball is more your speed, or I'm sure there's another season of Bake Off coming up.

 

[Craig Button]

Idk, I feel like the rule is broadly misunderstood. Basically the rule book says you can't only hit the head, but if you hit the head incidentally, or if they were in a different position and that would mean you it's ok.

48.1(ii) applies here; "Whether the opponent put himself in a vulnerable position by assuming a posture that made head contact on an otherwise full body check unavoidable."

Whitecloud approached from the front square - if knies' head isn't down he gets hit square in the chest, so it's a legal check. Compare that to the Reaves hit on Nurse - if Nurse's head was up, Reaves doesn't hit Nurse square in the body, he literally whiffs and hits air, so it's not a legal check.

Not sure if I necessarily agree with that, but the league has been relatively consistent with that standard to be honest. If the force is vectored through the center of mass, it's ok.

Knies didn’t put himself in a vulnerable position by assuming a posture that made head contact on a otherwise full body check unavoidable.

Knies was skating forward and for those who know how to skate are aware that you bend at your knees and your hips.

Whitecloud lined him up and hit him at his head. White cloud could have easily hit him with a normal check to the body like most players do often.

I can line myself up and just stand tall and hit people 3-5 inches taller than me and nail them in the head easily.
It’s not a clean hit

Just becuase is not standing tall while skating doesn’t mean they are in a vulnerable position.

 

[Ghost of Murph]

When it occurred I thought it was borderline dirty. After seeing a couple more angles it's apparent that it was completely legal.

The NHL is so fast. My take is that Whitecloud slightly mistimed things and rose up into the hit a bit early, which ended up hitting Knies higher than intended. Despite that it was still a legal hit.

People should realize that at speed the need to transfer body weight upwards to some degree is necessary to dissipate force. If Whitecloud didn't move upwards like he did the hit could have been far worse due to whiplash and/or increased force of impact.

 

[iCanada]

Knies didn’t put himself in a vulnerable position by assuming a posture that made head contact on a otherwise full body check unavoidable.

Knies was skating forward and for those who know how to skate are aware that you bend at your knees and your hips.

Whitecloud lined him up and hit him at his head. White cloud could have easily hit him with a normal check to the body like most players do often.

I can line myself up and just stand tall and hit people 3-5 inches taller than me and nail them in the head easily.
It’s not a clean hit

Just becuase is not standing tall while skating doesn’t mean they are in a vulnerable position.

Knies, by being leaned forward and looking down, is quite literally "assuming a posture that made head contact on an otherwise full body check unavoidable."

That's a direct quote from the rule book.

If he's less bent over and had his head up, it's a funny legal shoulder to shoulder check. The only reason there is head contact is because Knies' head is at the same horizontal position as his shoulder; hence his forward posture is making head contact unavoidable on an otherwise legal check.

I'm not really sure how you can argue that. You can disagree on principle, but the rule book is pretty clear.

 

[kevsh]

People should realize that at speed the need to transfer body weight upwards to some degree is necessary to dissipate force.

You don't have to move upwards to dissipate force as hundreds of players have proven over the years. And in this case, Whitecloud did so to the point he left his feet.

To me, by the book, yes, it was legal.

But the fact that he drove upwards ultimately leaving his feet, made contact with the head (literally a millisecond after Knies' upper body) suggest intent to, at least, hit Knies high. And that should warrant something, a minor penalty being the bare minimum.

Otherwise, players will use this is example as justification to target the head, driving upwards into the player and if they happen to touch a shoulder a fraction of a second before the head? You're okay, bud. Meanwhile your opponent is in concussion protocol.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I think that’s a clean hit.

 

[leafsfan2point0]

100% not a suspension.

If Knies did this hit on Whitecloud, then it would definitely be a suspension.

 

[The Nuge]

I get why Leaf fans are upset, but it’s absolutely nothing like the Reaves hit. It’s not blindside, and he doesn’t pick the head. He doesn’t even leave his feet before contact. He absolutely does connect with a significant amount of his head, but that’s not necessarily against the rules. I’m surprised there was no penalty on the play, but when you slow it down, it just doesn’t look suspendable

 

[Ghost of Murph]

You don't have to move upwards to dissipate force as hundreds of players have proven over the years. And in this case, Whitecloud did so to the point he left his feet.

Depends on things such as speed, angle, etc. In this instance if all of Whitecloud's force was parallel with the ice the outcome for Knies would likely have been worse. Whitecloud's skates coming off the ice after impact show that the angle of force was lessened a good deal than if he drove straight into Knies.

 

[syz]

Perfectly timed hit.... if he doesn't leave his feet.

 

[Canadienna]

Completely different hit than Reaves and it's pointless to try to compare them.

This hit has the "hitting through the body" component than Reaves' didn't.

I don't see this getting any supplemental discipline.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Perfectly timed hit.... if he doesn't leave his feet.

He doesn’t leave his feet

 

[wetcoast]

Knies didn’t put himself in a vulnerable position by assuming a posture that made head contact on a otherwise full body check unavoidable.

Knies was skating forward and for those who know how to skate are aware that you bend at your knees and your hips.

Whitecloud lined him up and hit him at his head. White cloud could have easily hit him with a normal check to the body like most players do often.

I can line myself up and just stand tall and hit people 3-5 inches taller than me and nail them in the head easily.
It’s not a clean hit

Just becuase is not standing tall while skating doesn’t mean they are in a vulnerable position.

Basically this for me head was the initial and primary point of contact and allowing hits like this will just lead to more violent concussions.

But then again some people think the #1 priority for NHL players should be avoiding getting hit in these ways over you know actually playing the game.

 

[Oilslick941611]

View attachment 933511
Here we have two players. One is in a low stance, arms tucked, trying to stop an offensive player. He is doing everything right. The other is skating up the ice with the puck, in a hunched position with his head the most forward point of his body. He is the one making head contact unavoidable.

Skating with your head down in a dangerous position is the problem here, not the hit. Hopefully a physical player like Nurse will learn from this and not put himself in bad situations in the future.

As some leafs fans told us two nights ago…

“Clean hit”

I’ll repeat that sentiment.