Which listed player would you want for their whole career?

[Albatros]

Sure they got career best performances from Ranford, Tikkanen, Simpson... but those are guys that you need to be able to beat if you're ever to win the cup. Calgary won the year before with only four players scoring more than 2 points in the six-game finals, more of their guys were minus than plus but they got it done.

 

[Felidae]

In 1990 Gretzky and Coffey were gone, Fuhr injured. Definitely not an unbeatable machine either. The Bruins were Presidents' Trophy winners, yet lost in five without offering much of a challenge. But more than failing to overcome adversity any one year, in two decades Bourque's Bruins never found an extra gear in the playoffs.

Some fun facts about Bourque.

He has 2 of the top 10 most productive runs by a defenseman in the playoffs (7th and 10th), and he's the only one to appear twice in the top 10.

He's also the 3rd highest scoring defenseman of all time in the playoffs and ranks 11th in PPG. Out of everyone ahead of him in all time playoff PPG, only 3 of those players have played 100 games. He's the only one with 200 games in the top 20.

Lastly.. he's the highest scoring defenseman and has the best +/- of all time in game 7s.


Seems to me he was an excellent playoff performer, and the main reason those bruins teams even made it that far.

 

[Albatros]

Some fun facts about Bourque.

He has 2 of the top 10 most productive runs by a defenseman in the playoffs (7th and 10th), and he's the only one to appear twice in the top 10.

He's also the 3rd highest scoring defenseman of all time in the playoffs and ranks 11th in PPG. Out of everyone ahead of him in all time playoff PPG, only 3 of those players have played 100 games. He's the only one with 200 games in the top 20.

Lastly.. he's the highest scoring defenseman and has the best +/- of all time in game 7s.


Seems to me he was an excellent playoff performer, and the main reason those bruins teams even made it that far.

How many series did they win during those two decades against stronger opposition?

 

[SillyRabbit]

I never saw Bourque play so I can’t speak to his talents. I’m sure he’s one of the best but I’ll stick with Lidstrom

Not calling you out specifically because your reasoning (not seeing Bourque play) is very reasonable and respectable.

But this reasoning accounts for like 80% of the people who choose Lidstrom over Bourque in these type of polls/discussions.

Except they try to downplay Bourque as a player, which makes no sense to me.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Not calling you out specifically because your reasoning (not seeing Bourque play) is very reasonable and respectable.

But this reasoning accounts for like 80% of the people who choose Lidstrom over Bourque in these type of polls/discussions.

Except they try to downplay Bourque as a player, which makes no sense to me.

For conversation’s sake what did make Bourque better? Lidstrom has 15 years of dominance and has a ton of playoff success as well where he was a crucial part to those Wings Cups.

 

[Felidae]

How many series did they win during those two decades against stronger opposition?

My point is that faulting him him for any playoff failures doesn't really make sense considering how well he played in the playoffs.

 

[JackSlater]

It's boring but I'd go with Crosby. Some people mentioned injuries and if the injuries are built into the selection then I might pick Bourque until I see Crosby's whole career play out. I can see at least some kind of argument for any of the players except for Messier and honestly Lidstrom.

 

[elmaco]

Coin toss between Lidstrom and Crosby

 

[Voight]

For conversation’s sake what did make Bourque better? Lidstrom has 15 years of dominance and has a ton of playoff success as well where he was a crucial part to those Wings Cups.

Bourque has 22 years of dominance, for starters.

Seriously; he made the 1st or 2nd all-star team in all but 3 seasons.

& No disrespect to Lidstrom, but he was surrounded by much better teammates during his career compared to Bourque (other than his Avs tenure that was less than 2 seasons). Yes he was undoubtedly a crucial part of four cup wins but you could argue his day to day was easier given the talent around him.

My personal ranking has only Orr, Potvin and Bourque ahead of him.

 

[Albatros]

My point is that faulting him him for any playoff failures doesn't really make sense considering how well he played in the playoffs.

There's more to success than individual point totals though, certainly in the playoffs as the captain.

All playoff series in Bourque's Bruins career. In green teams that were ten points or more ahead of the Bruins in the regular season, in red those that were ten points or more behind. Teams in Yellow were less than ten points apart. Bolded are wins against significantly better teams and losses against significantly worse teams according to these standards.

1980 (105 pts)
PIT 3:2 W (73)
NYI 1:4 L (91)

1981 (87)
MIN 0:3 L (87)

1982 (96)
BUF 3:1 W (93)
QUE 3:4 L (82)

1983 (110)
QUE 3:1 W (80)
BUF 4:3 W (89)
NYI 2:4 L (96)

1984 (104)
MTL 0:3 L (75)

1985 (82)
MTL 2:3 L (94)

1986 (86)
MTL 0:3 L (87)

1987 (85)
MTL 0:4 L (92)

1988 (94)
BUF 4:2 W (85)
MTL 4:1 W (103)
NJD 4:3 W (82)
EDM 0:4 L (99)

1989 (88)
BUF 4:1 W (83)
MTL 1:4 L (115)

1990 (101)
HFD 4:3 W (85)
MTL 4:1 W (93)
WSH 4:0 W (78)
EDM 1:4 L (90)

1991 (100)
HFD 4:2 W (73)
MTL 4:3 W (89)
PIT 2:4 L (88)

1992 (84)
BUF 4:3 W (74)
MTL 4:0 W (93)
PIT 0:4 L (87)

1993 (109)
BUF 0:4 L (86)

1994 (97)
MTL 4:3 W (96)
NJD 2:4 L (106)

1995 (57)
NJD 1:4 L (52)

1996 (91)
FLA 1:4 L (92)

1998 (91)
WSH 2:4 L (92)

1999 (91)
CAR 4:2 W (86)
BUF 2:4 L (91)

In all they won 0/2 (0 %) series against significantly better teams and 9/16 (56 %) against significantly worse teams. Against near equals they won 8/18 (44 %). I would say it's a mixed to bad record when it comes to playoff perseverance. Not saying it's all on Bourque personally, but as the captain of a reasonably strong team he has to take his sizeable share of responsibility.

 

[gritdash60]

Voted Lidström for 7 norris trophies, but was a homer vote. Crosby would probably be more reasonable. Then again having Jagr for 60years is also tempting.

 

[SillyRabbit]

For conversation’s sake what did make Bourque better? Lidstrom has 15 years of dominance and has a ton of playoff success as well where he was a crucial part to those Wings Cups.

Here is a list of where Ray Bourque finished in Norris voting in every single season of his 20-year career:

1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 4, 7, 7, 7.

He finished 4th in Norris voting at age 19.

He finished 2nd in Norris voting at age 40.

He did this in the most stacked era for defenceman in NHL history. Bourque had to compete against a prime Chelios, MacInnis, Stevens, Leetch, Langway and Coffey.

For context: When Lidstrom won his first Norris trophy at age 30, who was 2nd in voting?

A 40-year-old Ray Bourque in his final season.

When Lidstrom won his second Norris trophy the following year, who was 2nd in voting?

A 40-year-old Chris Chelios.

When Lidstrom won his third Norris trophy, who was 2nd in voting?

A 39-year-old Al MacInnis.

Lidstrom didn’t start winning Norris trophies until the old guard retired.

Bourque is 1st in goals, assists, and points for defenceman while almost being a career PPG player.

He was 0.5% of the vote away from winning the Hart trophy in 1990. He had more first and second place votes than Messier, but lost due to having fewer 3rd place votes.

He led his team to the Cup finals twice losing to the dynasty Oilers. Their game-plan was to focus on shutting him down as he was the main driver of the Bruins offense. Think about how teams game-planned around Karlsson in the 2017 playoffs. Except Bourque was also an elite defender to boot.

Bourque had the better peak, better prime and better longevity.

Most people simply didn’t get a chance to watch him, so they don’t recognize that he was the better player (although it’s definitely close).

 

[Johnny Tomala]

Nicklas Lidström.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Easily Crosby lol come on now