Which active players are top 20 playoff performers of all-time, or expected to reach that high? How about top 10?

[filinski77]

One thing that bugs me about Crosby's playoff resume is, out of the five times Pittsburgh made it to the conference finals, he only led them in scoring once. Of course, we need to look beyond just the stats (for example, he was clearly their best forward in 2016, despite Kessel outscoring him). Still, for arguably the #5 player ever, it seems somewhat underwhelming.

Sakic had six trips to the conference finals. He was Colorado's best player in 1996. For what it's worth, I also thought he was their best player in 2001 (Roy won the Smythe - in any case, Sakic would have been their best forward). He was probably their 2nd best player 1997 (behind Roy), 2nd best again in 2002 (behind Forsberg), and 3rd best in 1999 (behind both). He was a huge disappointment in 2000 (playing through injuries - this is similar to Crosby's 2013 postseason).

For me, another couple pain spots in looking at Crosby individually in the playoffs are 2 huge black holes in performance:

1) Goal scoring in the cup finals: He has 4 goals in 25 cup final games (13 goals over 82gp pace). There is literally no excuse for this, and no way for fans to explain this away.

2) Performance in elimination games: By my calculations, in games where the Penguins could be eliminated in the playoffs, Crosby has 4 goals, 17 points in 23 such games. This is a 14 goal, 61 point pace for 82 games.

For how much people use playoff success as a way to boost up Crosby, he has statistically been pretty poor in the most important aspects in my opinion.

 

[The Macho King]

For me, another couple pain spots in looking at Crosby individually in the playoffs are 2 huge black holes in performance:

1) Goal scoring in the cup finals: He has 4 goals in 25 cup final games (13 goals over 82gp pace). There is literally no excuse for this, and no way for fans to explain this away.

2) Performance in elimination games: By my calculations, in games where the Penguins could be eliminated in the playoffs, Crosby has 4 goals, 17 points in 23 such games. This is a 14 goal, 61 point pace for 82 games.

For how much people use playoff success as a way to boost up Crosby, he has statistically been pretty poor in the most important aspects in my opinion.

Just going to jump in and say I really dislike these micro-statistical arguments. They're good for narratives but small sample sizes combining tons of different seasons/opponents/teams that i think they're prone to a ton of noise.

These guys have played 150+ playoff games. I don't see the value of cutting off a chunk of them - especially because on the other side strong performances earlier either helped get rid of teams earlier (so more rest/advancing in playoffs) or got them to those late games in the first place.

 

[MadLuke]

Just going to jump in and say I really dislike these micro-statistical arguments. They're good for narratives but small sample sizes combining tons of different seasons/opponents/teams that i think they're prone to a ton of noise.

Also I think this can be overthinking it, everytime there is some not a lot in X sub-scenario for someone with exceptional large career totals, that usually mean there is the reverse of the medal.

Crosby in elimination game when his team as the chance to win the series is 5th with the most points in league history, behind Gretzky-Messier-Anderson-Kurri, 39 points in 39 games.

You can look at one or look at the other (Claude Lemieux 15 goals-34 points in that scenario is quite something).

NHL modern playoff format does not really have a lot of non-important game to make some clean breaks between big one, average and non-important one, it is about never the case for a series to be a lock anymore. Game 1 of every series in Crosby era were super important playoff games, in every round, every year. So where all the games 2 and 3, all of them.

Virtually the only "acceptable" games to lose are when you have a 3-0 lead, that pretty much it, after that you let a team make the series 3-2 and they still have a game at home...

Ovechkin is the reverse, when is team can seal the deal, 19 points in 28 games, that Joe Thornton killer instinct level type of narrative we could start to tell.

One could have look more broadly in elimination games... biggest goalscorer in those situation are

Messier, Richard (playing half the games as others, almost a goal per games in those situation), Anderson, Tikkanen, Hull, Jagr, Gretzky, Kurri, Sakic, Claude Lemieux.


This for example:

1) Goal scoring in the cup finals: He has 4 goals in 25 cup final games (13 goals over 82gp pace). There is literally no excuse for this, and no way for fans to explain this away.

yes, but he is tie for the most points in the Stanley cups finals since Gretzky was traded to the Kings(with Kucherov and Hossa), trying to make a 3 cups winner, tie for the most points in the finals resume look bad would be a bit of cherry picking required. I doubt many would point that about Kucherov finals track record.

 

[daver]

Just going to jump in and say I really dislike these micro-statistical arguments. They're good for narratives but small sample sizes combining tons of different seasons/opponents/teams that i think they're prone to a ton of noise.

These guys have played 150+ playoff games. I don't see the value of cutting off a chunk of them - especially because on the other side strong performances earlier either helped get rid of teams earlier (so more rest/advancing in playoffs) or got them to those late games in the first place.

Crosby tended to take care of business early in games and in series. He has the the record for most opening goals in one playoff year with 6 in 2009.

His playoff goal total and gpg is completely befitting his regular season goalscoring resume, which is to say he has some impressive goalscoring playoff runs to compliment his impressive playmaking playoff runs.

 

[daver]

For me, another couple pain spots in looking at Crosby individually in the playoffs are 2 huge black holes in performance:

1) Goal scoring in the cup finals: He has 4 goals in 25 cup final games (13 goals over 82gp pace). There is literally no excuse for this, and no way for fans to explain this away.

2) Performance in elimination games: By my calculations, in games where the Penguins could be eliminated in the playoffs, Crosby has 4 goals, 17 points in 23 such games. This is a 14 goal, 61 point pace for 82 games.

For how much people use playoff success as a way to boost up Crosby, he has statistically been pretty poor in the most important aspects in my opinion.

1. You keep saying, "I'm not saying that goals are everything" yet here we are again.

He loses nothing on his resume for leading the playoffs in scoring at age 20 (the youngest ever?) and, along with Hossa, getting the Pens to a Game 6 against the best Cup winning team since 2005. His 2008 SCF was similar to McDavid's in 2024.

The SCF in 2009 has been talked about to death. I challenge you to find a more impressive goalscoring performance thru 3 rounds.

The 2016 playoffs and SCF has been talked about to death. If you think Crosby's contribution to the Pens dominant Cup win us reflected in his only his goal total, you missed a lot.

Regarding 2017, see above.

 

[filinski77]

1. You keep saying, "I'm not saying that goals are everything" yet here we are again.

He loses nothing on his resume for leading the playoffs in scoring at age 20 (the youngest ever?) and, along with Hossa, getting the Pens to a Game 6 against the best Cup winning team since 2005. His 2008 SCF was similar to McDavid's in 2024.

The SCF in 2009 has been talked about to death. I challenge you to find a more impressive goalscoring performance thru 3 rounds.

The 2016 playoffs and SCF has been talked about to death. If you think Crosby's contribution to the Pens dominant Cup win us reflected in his only his goal total, you missed a lot.

Regarding 2017, see above.

What are you even talking about lol. I'm not saying Crosby is a complete bum in the playoffs.

But I also acknowledge that his inability to score in the cup finals is 100% a bad thing on his resume. And his performance in elimination games includes both piss poor goal scoring AND lackluster point scoring.

You are talking a lot, but providing zero substance about the 2 singular facts that I'm mentioning. I'm not saying Crosby was useless in the cup finals. But he hasn't been anywhere near an all-timer (ie. top-10) as far as his performance in cup finals.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Crosby’s performances (or should I say, production) in the cup finals is basically the reason why he is not viewed as a top 5 playoff performer of all time. Not sure what is new here. It’s been known for a while

 

[MadLuke]

No one since 1988 scored more points in the cup finals than Sidney Crosby too:

Stanley Cup Final Skater Records - Most Points, Stanley Cup Final Series | NHL Records

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His production in the finals is arguably era adjusted the same has Kucherov, who is seen as a total playoff final assassin.

That can be the issue with looking at numbers we are not that used to look at, playoff scoring as you go deeper in them can get relatively low.

Crosby scored 2 mores points in 2 less finals games than an all-time great playoff scorer like Malkin, in the same era. It is not something necessarily on its plus size versus the rest of the achievement, but far from a drag on his resume.

 

[The Macho King]

No one since 1988 scored more points in the cup finals than Sidney Crosby too:

Stanley Cup Final Skater Records - Most Points, Stanley Cup Final Series | NHL Records

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His production in the finals is arguably era adjusted the same has Kucherov, who is seen as a total playoff final assassin.

That can be the issue with looking at numbers we are not that used to look at, playoff scoring as you go deeper in them can get relatively low.

Crosby scored 2 mores points in 2 less finals games than an all-time great playoff scorer like Malkin, in the same era.

I'll say Kucherovs first Finals was pre-prime.

While I don't like chunking for stuff like "games 6 and 7" or "when facing elimination" stuff, by series may be a bit more interesting to dive into. Popular wisdom is scoring goes down the further in the playoffs you go - teams are better, players are dinged up, every shift is played like it's the last. As a fan of a team with 3 straight Finals appearances it certainly felt that way. Do the numbers in any way reflect that though?

 

[MadLuke]

Do the numbers in any way reflect that though?

Seem to be that way for the elite scorer at least, I took since the modern 4 round format (1979-1980) the top 300 playoff scorer (overall during that time), they scored per round:

roundPlayed	Total_games	total_goals	total_assists	total_points	gpg	ppg
1	17804	5070	8011	13081	0.28	0.73
2	10662	2917	4727	7644	0.27	0.72
3	5985	1525	2459	3984	0.25	0.67
4	3298	769	1243	2012	0.23	0.61

20202021 was just simply removed here... not sure what to do with the round numbers algo.

 

[Matsun]

Kucherov vs Crosby in the 1st round:

Player	GP	G	A	P	PPG
Crosby	79	38	68	106	1,34
Kucherov	51	18	46	64	1,25

In the 2nd round:

Player	GP	G	A	P	PPG
Crosby	49	19	31	50	1,02
Kucherov	30	17	17	34	1,13

In the 3rd round:

Player	GP	G	A	P	PPG
Crosby	27	10	15	25	0,93
Kucherov	40	11	36	47	1,18

In the finals:

Player	GP	G	A	P	PPG
Crosby	25	4	16	20	0,80
Kucherov	23	6	14	20	0,87

Kucherov has been to 4 finals and 2 Conf. finals, Crosby has been to 4 finals and 1 Conf. finals. Crosby is 3-1 in finals and Kucherov is 2-2. I've never thought about ranking playoff performers but I feel like Kucherov should be top 20 at this point.

 

[daver]

Kucherov vs Crosby in the 1st round:

Player	GP	G	A	P	PPG
Crosby	79	38	68	106	1,34
Kucherov	51	18	46	64	1,25

In the 2nd round:

Player	GP	G	A	P	PPG
Crosby	49	19	31	50	1,02
Kucherov	30	17	17	34	1,13

In the 3rd round:

Player	GP	G	A	P	PPG
Crosby	27	10	15	25	0,93
Kucherov	40	11	36	47	1,18

In the finals:

Player	GP	G	A	P	PPG
Crosby	25	4	16	20	0,80
Kucherov	23	6	14	20	0,87

Kucherov has been to 4 finals and 2 Conf. finals, Crosby has been to 4 finals and 1 Conf. finals and both are 2-2 in the finals. I've never thought about ranking playoff performers but I feel like Kucherov should be top 20 at this point.

Not sure it makes sense to compare their numbers straight up. Kucherov played many games where scoring was clearly higher and Crosby clearly brought more than just offense than Kucherov.


Crosby's Playoff prime ('07 to '18):

NHL Stats

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He is the leading scorer with 185 points and a PPG of 1.16

Next best PPGs in the Top 10:

Malkin - 1.04
Getzlaf - 1.04
Kane - 0.97
Ovechkin - 0.97
Zetterberg - 0.95
Briere 0.95


Kucherov's Playoff prime ('15 to '24):

He is the leading scorer with a 166 points snd a PPG of 1.14

Next best PPGs in the Top 10:

McDavid - 1.58
Draisaitl - 1.46
MacKinnon - 1.28
Rantanen - 1.25
Marchand - 1.09
Crosby - 1.02

 

[daver]

Looking at Kucherov in a vaccuum, should he be rated higher than Mike Bossy who is #20 in the HOH Top 40 playoff performers of all-time?

 

[Matsun]

Looking at Kucherov in a vaccuum, should he be rated higher than Mike Bossy who is #20 in the HOH Top 40 playoff performers of all-time?

Bossy was amazing and obviously has the goalscoring legacy but there could be a case. Kucherov has lead his team in playoff scoring 7/9 seasons and finished 1 point back the other times (as a second year player in the finals and in the embarrassing sweep to Colombus). Bossy only lead the Islanders in scoring 3/10 seasons, and only once in a finals run and another time was in a first round sweep. Bob Bourne actually outscored Bossy in the playoffs twice.

 

[bobholly39]

For me, another couple pain spots in looking at Crosby individually in the playoffs are 2 huge black holes in performance:

1) Goal scoring in the cup finals: He has 4 goals in 25 cup final games (13 goals over 82gp pace). There is literally no excuse for this, and no way for fans to explain this away.

2) Performance in elimination games: By my calculations, in games where the Penguins could be eliminated in the playoffs, Crosby has 4 goals, 17 points in 23 such games. This is a 14 goal, 61 point pace for 82 games.

For how much people use playoff success as a way to boost up Crosby, he has statistically been pretty poor in the most important aspects in my opinion.

Kucherov in elimination games has a statline of 15 games, 2 goals 8 points. Pace of 11 goals and 43 points in 82 games.

Focusing on just one player with 0 comparisons is always a useless exercise.

Focusing on elimination games also doesn't really say much as most players do poorly in those, which is why their teams lose/are losing. Coming from behind in playoff rounds isn't a recipe for long-term playoff success - scoring, and winning early games is usually more important to playoff success, and thus lowers the number of elimination games you face.

 

[filinski77]

Kucherov in elimination games has a statline of 15 games, 2 goals 8 points. Pace of 11 goals and 43 points in 82 games.

Focusing on just one player with 0 comparisons is always a useless exercise.

Focusing on elimination games also doesn't really say much as most players do poorly in those, which is why their teams lose/are losing. Coming from behind in playoff rounds isn't a recipe for long-term playoff success - scoring, and winning early games is usually more important to playoff success, and thus lowers the number of elimination games you face.

"Kucherov in elimination games has a statline of 15 games, 2 goals 8 points. Pace of 11 goals and 43 points in 82 games."
Agreed... also bad in this perspective.

"Focusing on just one player with 0 comparisons is always a useless exercise."
Agreed - but I think you could infer that there are a ton of players who are significantly better than Crosby at both of those areas I pointed out.

All-time in playoff elimination games: Crosby is probably not even top-50 in NHL history

Playoff Skater Records - Most Points When Facing Elimination, Playoff Career | NHL Records

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Post-cap in playoff elimination games: Crosby is probably only ~15-20th in performance:

"Focusing on elimination games also doesn't really say much as most players do poorly in those, which is why their teams lose/are losing. Coming from behind in playoff rounds isn't a recipe for long-term playoff success - scoring, and winning early games is usually more important to playoff success, and thus lowers the number of elimination games you face."
I do not disagree at all. But elimination games are some of THE most important games in the playoffs.

Also, you need to remember that I made no claim that Crosby is actually bad in the playoffs. I of course understand that there are more things to consider in this analysis of all-time playoffs. But I think it is extremely relevant to consider Crosby's poor SCF goal scoring and poor elimination game performance when talking about small samples that make up a playoff career, and whether I'd have Crosby top-10 or top-20 in the playoffs.

 

[daver]

"Kucherov in elimination games has a statline of 15 games, 2 goals 8 points. Pace of 11 goals and 43 points in 82 games."
Agreed... also bad in this perspective.

"Focusing on just one player with 0 comparisons is always a useless exercise."
Agreed - but I think you could infer that there are a ton of players who are significantly better than Crosby at both of those areas I pointed out.

All-time in playoff elimination games: Crosby is probably not even top-50 in NHL history

Playoff Skater Records - Most Points When Facing Elimination, Playoff Career | NHL Records

Explore the records for Playoff Skater Records, Most Points When Facing Elimination, Playoff Career

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Post-cap in playoff elimination games: Crosby is probably only ~15-20th in performance:
View attachment 1009934

"Focusing on elimination games also doesn't really say much as most players do poorly in those, which is why their teams lose/are losing. Coming from behind in playoff rounds isn't a recipe for long-term playoff success - scoring, and winning early games is usually more important to playoff success, and thus lowers the number of elimination games you face."
I do not disagree at all. But elimination games are some of THE most important games in the playoffs.

Also, you need to remember that I made no claim that Crosby is actually bad in the playoffs. I of course understand that there are more things to consider in this analysis of all-time playoffs. But I think it is extremely relevant to consider Crosby's poor SCF goal scoring and poor elimination game performance when talking about small samples that make up a playoff career, and whether I'd have Crosby top-10 or top-20 in the playoffs.

Crosby's team was the most successeful during his era with the most playoff games won, three Cups and another SCF appearance. No other team has that record.

He is the leading scorer in his era and #3 in goals. I.e. he contributed the most value to the team that won the most.

He was clearly the player that positioned his team the best for playoff success inlcuding, notably, helpinh his team win series before they went 6 or 7 games.

 

[MadLuke]

elimination games

That facing elimination games subcategory, elimination games that even out, in games that his team can eliminate the opponent he has the 5th most points in league history behind only the 4 big Oilers.

Why choose looking at one type of elimination game more than the other ?

 

[VanIslander]

None of the top-30 career playoff PIM leaders are in the game today. Bettman got his way. The two highest ACTIVE players on the career playoff penalty list are Corey Perry & Evgeni Malkin,.

Yes, penalties aa a stat is an accomplishment, especially when decided to be done in playoff hockey!

 

[filinski77]

Crosby's team was the most successeful during his era with the most playoff games won, three Cups and another SCF appearance. No other team has that record.

He is the leading scorer in his era and #3 in goals. I.e. he contributed the most value to the team that won the most.

He was clearly the player that positioned his team the best for playoff success inlcuding, notably, helpinh his team win series before they went 6 or 7 games.

I don't disagree that Crosby and the Penguins have been successful.

I don't disagree that Crosby has played a lot of playoff games, and for the most part has been great in the playoffs.

You can say all of that, and I can agree with that. But it does not refute those singular components that I discussed. Crosby being good in the playoffs, and the Penguins as a team being very successful does not make Crosby a top-10 player in the playoffs all-time.

Go off King.

 

[filinski77]

That facing elimination games subcategory, elimination games that even out, in games that his team can eliminate the opponent he has the 5th most points in league history behind only the 4 big Oilers.

Why choose looking at one type of elimination game more than the other ?

Like I said multiple times... That was not the ONLY thing I consider in all-time playoff performance. It's insane that there is so much of a freakout when any contextual stat is added that doesn't make Crosby look amazing.

Let's also look at "Potential Clinching Games":
I agree that Crosby has been strong here. I don't care about raw point totals since Crosby also has some of the highest games played in the category (largely a team metric).

With considering era (ie. I don't think Gretzky was actually twice as good in these games as Crosby was) - A rough look amongst the guys with a high enough games played in this scenario has Crosby around 10th/just outside 10th all-time for me.

To conclude so that I don't have to spell it out more.
There are a lot of things to consider when looking at overall playoff performance all-time. Playoffs are such a small and nuanced sample size that it can be important to pick it apart in different ways.

One can look at Crosbys raw stats and conclude that he's amazing overall in the playoffs - I genuinely agree. Same thing with Kucherov. But look what happens when you splice it down:

Crosby:
-> When the team is winning, Crosbys is great. This is evident in his great performance in clinching games. Note that he's still a poor goal scorer in these scenarios.
-> When the team is facing elimination, Crosby is nowhere near as good.
-> In the Cup finals, Crosby has been bad at scoring goals in the cup finals series.

Kucherov:
-> Despite great cumulative stats in his career. He has been bad in both series clinching games, and elimination games. So even if he's been fantastic at getting his team to those games, he falls short.

 

[MadLuke]

Playoffs are such a small and nuanced sample size that it can be important to pick it apart in different ways.

Or the exact opposite, it is such a small sample size that creating even smaller one is getting really small (like above looking at ppg from people that played less than 20 games)

And so few games are being more important in the playoff than others, to be worth a different value to have value into splitting them. We could remove the games when a player had a 3-0 lead in a series, that the only case of a game being lower value than some others, the worst teams of a series if they win game 1 on the road end up with a 58% series win percentage, if the best team win it, they win 77% of the time, game 1 is almost everything..

The first games of every series was ultra important for example, why not look at those ? We could break them in 30 differents ways until a player look really good or really bad.

 

[daver]

I don't disagree that Crosby and the Penguins have been successful.

I don't disagree that Crosby has played a lot of playoff games, and for the most part has been great in the playoffs.

You can say all of that, and I can agree with that. But it does not refute those singular components that I discussed. Crosby being good in the playoffs, and the Penguins as a team being very successful does not make Crosby a top-10 player in the playoffs all-time.

Go off King.

I don't think anyone was arguing he was Top 10, only that Sakic, #12 in the HOH, was a good comparable.

Most people are disagreeing with your assessment of SCF goalscoring and elimination games as being overly relevant, if at all.

There are lots of other factors to consider if you do not think his playoff offensive resume speaks for itself such as strength of team and quality of linemates.

 

[RevengeOfTheDrai]

Just going to jump in and say I really dislike these micro-statistical arguments. They're good for narratives but small sample sizes combining tons of different seasons/opponents/teams that i think they're prone to a ton of noise.

These guys have played 150+ playoff games. I don't see the value of cutting off a chunk of them - especially because on the other side strong performances earlier either helped get rid of teams earlier (so more rest/advancing in playoffs) or got them to those late games in the first place.

23 and 25 games aren't THAT tiny sample sizes, until you think Crosby's 2012 season should be taken with a grain of salt. There's a narrative in circulation where Crosby is seen as the most clutch and big game player of this generation. When you dig into his numbers in big games(SCF) or elimination games, it doesn't back up the narrative. He's a great playoff performer, regardless. Yet all elimination and Stanley Cup games the Pens won were a result of great overall team performance rather than a carry job by Crosby.

 

[daver]

23 and 25 games aren't THAT tiny sample sizes, until you think Crosby's 2012 season should be taken with a grain of salt. There's a narrative in circulation where Crosby is seen as the most clutch and big game player of this generation. When you dig into his numbers in big games(SCF) or elimination games, it doesn't back up the narrative.

Where has this been said in this thread? He has the best playoff numbers on the most successful playoff team of his generation. Saying that he is best playoff performer of his generation seems reasonable.

If you want to take another player for a Game 7, go ahead, if you want to give your team the best chance of a series not making it to a Game 7, you take Crosby.