Where does Kucherov rank among Russians?

[Michael Farkas]

"Unless he kills his wife and a waiter..."

- Norm

 

[Hockey Outsider]

But then also ask yourselves, what are the factors that are keeping scoring from really exploding in a countervailing fashion? Why do we live in a world where Kucherov scores 140 points but nobody on mid-ranking scoring teams like Ottawa and Winnipeg even goes point per game, considering anything related to factors in bold apply in games featuring those teams as well?

Don't get me wrong. Kucherov is a great player (he'll be in the Top 100 is he isn't already). And this might be the best season of his career. At the same time, if he debuted ten years earlier, I can't envision him ever approaching 140 points.

By the way, one other guy goes 1.2 PPG in 1965-66 and we're at about the same proportion. 12 guys in 1965-66 would be two per team if distributed equally across the League. That's the equivalent of 64 today.

Yes, fair point. The gap isn't as big as it first appears given that there are 5x as many teams.

 

[TheStatican]

You're cherry picking points from Kucherov this year and trying to argue they don't matter as much...ok. Has anyone done that for Gretzky? Lemieux? Orr? To me a point is a point.

C'mon, for years the debates between Gretzky and Lemieux have consistently revolved around this subject.

1. Adjusted points are never perfect

So it's better to take raw totals at face value without any added context?

2. Even if you want to use adjusted points - using your own method, Kucherov has seasons of 138 and 141+ (whatever this year is) to Malkin's 122 and 128 (paced to 140 in 82 games). Doesn't this still give edge to Kucherov?

As I made clear in my previous post that analysis had one flaw to it - I didn't take into consideration the rise of other higher scoring situations that Kucherov has had the added benefit of over Malkin.

 

[TheStatican]

Kucherov has two regular seasons better than any of Malkin's. 2023-24 is the 23rd highest adjusted single season all time (16th in the last 90 years).

Between the two:

Rank-Name-Adjusted Point Total-Season

23. Kucherov: 140-2023-24
T-43. Kucherov: 128 2018-19
T-59. Malkin: 122 2011-12
T-85. Malkin: 117 2008-09
T-101. Malkin: 115 2007-08
T-156. Kucherov: 108 2022-23
T-250. Kucherov: 102 2017-18

Malkin's only edge comes in the form of having a better "third" season. 100 skaters had 50 or more points in 2011-12, 3.333 per team. 136 skaters have 50 or more points in 2023-24, 4.25 per team.

Of course scoring is higher, we take that into account! If we didn't, we'd just say Kucherov had 32 more points this season than Malkin did in 2011-12 and call it a day. We see Malkin closes the gap a good amount with Adjusted Scoring but not enough to make up for the gap. 2011-12 especially you really need to look at total league scoring and not some vs the guy who finished 5th or whatever. Crosby had concussions, Ovechkin was playing a trap, P. Kane had a wrist injury and played out of position... These were the top 3 scorers of the decade, in the third season of the decade and all nowhere near the scoring title.

As I've told you before, there are inherent flaws in HR's adjusted scoring metric. It overlooks crucial higher scoring game-time situations where the top players receive a greater than normal proportion of ice time, resulting in higher overall totals for these players relative to league-wide scoring levels.

Only once you take into consideration ALL of these factors can an accurate adjustment be made;
- powerplay scoring rates
- scoring during empty net situations, both against and for
- 3v3 & 4v4 scoring rates

Hockey Reference takes NONE of them into consideration. Here are the results when we adjust those factors to this seasons scoring levels;

​

Rates​

​

ES​

​

​

PP​

​

​

SH​

​

​

EN​

​

​

OT​

​

​

6v5​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​ 08-09​

​

1.965​

​

​

0.788​

​

​

0.096​

​

​

0.092​

​

​

0.050​

​

​

0.046​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​ 11-12​

​

2.013​

​

​

0.572​

​

​

0.075​

​

​

0.096​

​

​

0.048​

​

​

0.047​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​ 18-19​

​

2.312​

​

​

0.577​

​

​

0.092​

​

​

0.154​

​

​

0.072​

​

​

0.060​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​ 23-24​

​

2.357​

​

​

0.642​

​

​

0.087​

​

​

0.173​

​

​

0.074​

​

​

0.076​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​ Raw​

​

​

​

​

ES​

​

​

PP​

​

​

SH​

​

​

EN​

​

​

OT​

​

​

6v5​

​

​

TOT​

Gm​

Malkin​

08-09​

​

16​

44​

60​

14​

27​

41​

2​

0​

2​

2​

4​

6​

1​

1​

2​

0​

2​

2​

35​

78​

113​

82​

Malkin​

11-12​

​

31​

36​

67​

12​

22​

34​

0​

0​

0​

3​

0​

3​

1​

0​

1​

3​

1​

4​

50​

59​

109​

75​

Kucherov​

18-19​

​

25​

46​

71​

15​

33​

48​

0​

0​

0​

1​

5​

6​

0​

2​

2​

0​

1​

1​

41​

87​

128​

82​

Kucherov​

23-24​

​

21​

47​

68​

13​

39​

52​

0​

0​

0​

7​

7​

14​

1​

1​

2​

1​

5​

6​

43​

99​

142​

80​

Adjusted​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

Malkin​

08-09​

​

19.2​

52.8​

72.0​

11.4​

22.0​

33.4​

1.8​

0​

1.8​

3.8​

7.5​

11.3​

1.5​

1.5​

3.0​

0.0​

3.3​

3.3​

37.7​

87.1​

124.8​

82​

Malkin​

11-12​

​

36.3​

42.2​

78.4​

13.5​

24.7​

38.1​

0​

0​

0​

5.4​

0.0​

5.4​

1.5​

0.0​

1.5​

4.9​

1.6​

6.5​

61.6​

68.5​

130.0​

75​

Kucherov​

18-19​

​

25.5​

46.9​

72.4​

16.7​

36.7​

53.4​

0​

0​

0​

1.1​

5.6​

6.7​

0.0​

2.0​

2.0​

0.0​

1.3​

1.3​

43.3​

92.5​

135.8​

82​

Kucherov​

23-24​

​

21​

47​

68​

13​

39​

52​

0​

0​

0​

7​

7​

14​

1​

1​

2​

1​

5​

6​

43​

99​

142​

81​

Basically that comes out to:
82 38-87-125 Malkin '09
75 62-68-130 Malkin '12 which extrapolated to 82 games is 67-75-142
82 43-93-136 Kucherov '19
81 43-99-142 Kucherov '24

Kuch does have the 2nd and 3rd best seasons but there's no question Malkin's 11-12 is the highest level performance either of the two have achieved when considering the added value of goal scoring.

The VsX figures corroborate Malkin's advantage as well.
VsX (by PPG) for all values between Vs1 to Vs25:

And the cumulative percentages

Spoiler: the raw data used for the charts

​

​

​

Malkin '09​

Malkin '09​

​

​

​

​

Malkin '12​

Malkin '12​

​

​

​

​

Kuch '19​

Kuch '19​

​

​

​

​

Kuch '24​

Kuch '24​

1​

Alex Ovechkin​

1.39​

99.1%​

99.1%​

​

1​

Evgeni Malkin​

1.45​

100.0%​

100.0%​

​

1​

Nikita Kucherov​

1.56​

100.0%​

100.0%​

​

1​

Nikita Kucherov​

1.78​

100.0%​

100.0%​

2​

Evgeni Malkin​

1.38​

100.0%​

199.1%​

​

2​

Claude Giroux​

1.21​

120.1%​

220.1%​

​

2​

Connor McDavid​

1.49​

104.8%​

204.8%​

​

2​

Connor McDavid​

1.76​

100.9%​

200.9%​

3​

Sidney Crosby​

1.34​

102.8%​

302.0%​

​

3​

Steven Stamkos​

1.18​

123.2%​

343.3%​

​

3​

Patrick Kane​

1.36​

114.8%​

319.5%​

​

3​

Nathan MacKinnon​

1.70​

104.4%​

305.3%​

4​

Alexander Semin​

1.27​

108.5%​

410.5%​

​

4​

Ilya Kovalchuk​

1.08​

134.6%​

477.8%​

​

4​

Leon Draisaitl​

1.28​

122.0%​

441.5%​

​

4​

Artemi Panarin​

1.46​

121.6%​

426.8%​

5​

Pavel Datsyuk​

1.20​

114.8%​

525.3%​

​

5​

Jason Spezza​

1.05​

138.4%​

616.2%​

​

5​

Brad Marchand​

1.27​

122.9%​

564.4%​

​

5​

David Pastrňák​

1.36​

130.5%​

557.4%​

6​

Ilya Kovalchuk​

1.15​

119.8%​

645.1%​

​

6​

Joffrey Lupul​

1.02​

142.5%​

758.7%​

​

6​

Sidney Crosby​

1.27​

122.9%​

687.3%​

​

6​

Auston Matthews​

1.35​

131.5%​

688.8%​

7​

Zach Parise​

1.15​

119.8%​

765.0%​

​

7​

James Neal​

1.01​

143.9%​

902.6%​

​

7​

David Pastrňák​

1.23​

126.9%​

814.2%​

​

7​

Leon Draisaitl​

1.32​

134.5%​

823.3%​

8​

Ryan Getzlaf​

1.12​

123.0%​

888.0%​

​

8​

Phil Kessel​

1.00​

145.3%​

1047.9%​

​

8​

Patrice Bergeron​

1.22​

128.0%​

942.2%​

​

8​

Mikko Rantanen​

1.30​

136.5%​

959.8%​

9​

Jarome Iginla​

1.09​

126.4%​

1014.4%​

​

9​

Henrik Sedin​

0.99​

146.8%​

1194.7%​

​

9​

Johnny Gaudreau​

1.21​

129.0%​

1071.2%​

​

9​

J.T. Miller​

1.28​

138.7%​

1098.5%​

10​

Marc Savard​

1.07​

128.8%​

1143.2%​

​

10​

John Tavares​

0.99​

146.8%​

1341.5%​

​

10​

Nathan MacKinnon​

1.21​

129.0%​

1200.2%​

​

10​

Kirill Kaprizov​

1.27​

139.8%​

1238.3%​

11​

Mike Green​

1.07​

128.8%​

1272.0%​

​

11​

Jonathan Toews​

0.97​

149.8%​

1491.4%​

​

11​

Steven Stamkos​

1.20​

130.1%​

1330.3%​

​

11​

Mitch Marner​

1.25​

142.0%​

1380.3%​

12​

Nicklas Bäckström​

1.07​

128.8%​

1400.8%​

​

12​

Jordan Eberle​

0.97​

149.8%​

1641.2%​

​

12​

Mikko Rantanen​

1.18​

132.3%​

1462.6%​

​

12​

William Nylander​

1.21​

146.7%​

1527.0%​

13​

Joe Thornton​

1.05​

131.2%​

1532.0%​

​

13​

Erik Karlsson​

0.96​

151.4%​

1792.6%​

​

13​

Aleksander Barkov​

1.17​

133.4%​

1596.0%​

​

13​

Jack Hughes​

1.19​

149.2%​

1676.1%​

14​

Jeff Carter​

1.02​

135.1%​

1667.1%​

​

14​

Martin St. Louis​

0.96​

151.4%​

1944.0%​

​

14​

Brayden Point​

1.16​

134.6%​

1730.6%​

​

14​

Cale Makar​

1.17​

151.7%​

1827.8%​

15​

Mike Cammalleri​

1.01​

136.4%​

1803.5%​

​

15​

Patrik Eliáš​

0.96​

151.4%​

2095.3%​

​

15​

Mitch Marner​

1.15​

135.7%​

1866.3%​

​

15​

Filip Forsberg​

1.15​

154.3%​

1982.2%​

16​

Mike Richards​

1.01​

136.4%​

1940.0%​

​

16​

Pavel Datsyuk​

0.96​

151.4%​

2246.7%​

​

16​

Jonathan Huberdeau​

1.12​

139.4%​

2005.7%​

​

16​

Jake Guentzel​

1.15​

154.3%​

2136.5%​

17​

Patrik Eliáš​

1.01​

136.4%​

2076.4%​

​

17​

Marián Hossa​

0.95​

153.0%​

2399.7%​

​

17​

Blake Wheeler​

1.11​

140.6%​

2146.3%​

​

17​

Quinn Hughes​

1.14​

155.7%​

2292.2%​

18​

Rick Nash​

1.01​

136.4%​

2212.9%​

​

18​

Joe Thornton​

0.94​

154.6%​

2554.3%​

​

18​

Alex Ovechkin​

1.10​

141.9%​

2288.2%​

​

18​

Sam Reinhart​

1.14​

155.7%​

2447.9%​

19​

Daniel Sedin​

1.00​

137.8%​

2350.7%​

​

19​

Ray Whitney​

0.94​

154.6%​

2708.9%​

​

19​

Artemi Panarin​

1.10​

141.9%​

2430.1%​

​

19​

Sebastian Aho​

1.14​

155.7%​

2603.6%​

20​

Henrik Sedin​

1.00​

137.8%​

2488.5%​

​

20​

Anže Kopitar​

0.93​

156.3%​

2865.2%​

​

20​

Auston Matthews​

1.07​

145.9%​

2576.0%​

​

20​

Brayden Point​

1.13​

157.1%​

2760.7%​

21​

Martin St. Louis​

0.98​

140.6%​

2629.1%​

​

21​

Daniel Sedin​

0.93​

156.3%​

3021.5%​

​

21​

John Tavares​

1.07​

145.9%​

2721.9%​

​

21​

Sidney Crosby​

1.13​

157.1%​

2917.8%​

22​

Marián Hossa​

0.96​

143.5%​

2772.6%​

​

22​

Marián Gáborík​

0.93​

156.3%​

3177.7%​

​

22​

Evgeni Malkin​

1.06​

147.3%​

2869.2%​

​

22​

Elias Pettersson​

1.10​

161.4%​

3079.2%​

23​

Henrik Zetterberg​

0.95​

145.1%​

2917.7%​

​

23​

Patrick Sharp​

0.93​

156.3%​

3334.0%​

​

23​

Jack Eichel​

1.06​

147.3%​

3016.4%​

​

23​

Matthew Tkachuk​

1.09​

162.8%​

3242.0%​

24​

Martin Havlát​

0.95​

145.1%​

3062.7%​

​

24​

Jamie Benn​

0.89​

163.3%​

3497.3%​

​

24​

Sean Monahan​

1.05​

148.7%​

3165.1%​

​

24​

Aleksander Barkov​

1.08​

164.4%​

3406.4%​

25​

Mike Ribeiro​

0.95​

145.1%​

3207.8%​

​

25​

Jason Pominville​

0.89​

163.3%​

3660.6%​

​

25​

Claude Giroux​

1.04​

150.1%​

3315.2%​

​

25​

Jack Eichel​

1.08​

164.4%​

3570.7%​

There's also other factors to consider like the one brought up by @Hockey Outsider; the increasing number of quality good puck-moving defensemen, though this is more difficult to statically quantify.

 

[Namba 17]

Fine by me. I'm curious as to the rationale anyway. I've always seen Kharlamov ranked higher, but I think you're knowledgeable about Soviet hockey, so I'd like to hear the argument the other way.

Leadership qualities - Mikhailov. Long-time CSKA and Soviet international captain, one of two Soviet captains whos leadership qualities constantly underlines.
Backcheck/forecheck - Mikhailov. Here is very good analysys of his backchecking game I can agree with:

Twenty years of Soviet Hockey: 1962 - 1982 (Index of player profiles in OP)

I'm going to post, over time, the complete resumes of the most notable Soviet forwards to compete in this era, which could be called the "Golden Era" of Soviet hockey. The dates selected are arbitrary, of course, but not without reason. They represent essentially the timespan which covers the...

forums.hfboards.com

PK - Mikhailov. He was one of the top PKers of his time. Here is the post with very good analysys of his PK, I agree with Study of the penalty killing of Soviet forwards during the 1960-1990 time frame
Quote: "Mikhailov killed penalties as if the survival of the planet was on the line and I don't even think that he knows what it means to not give an 100 percent effort". - this can be said about his game as whole.
Tough stile of play - Mikhailov.
Mikhailov could be mean and dirty if needed and he could stand for himself.
Another quote about his play I absolutely agree with:
"Mikhailov is a player who you appreciate more the more you watch him. He was shockingly well-rounded for a Soviet of his era, and did a lot of little things right in all zones of the ice. He was not blessed with the technical skills or blazing speed of Kharlamov, but he had excellent hockey sense and played within himself, worked and grinded constantly, and had good, quick hands, which allowed him to control the puck in tight spaces and pounce on rebounds or deflections when he had the chance. He is a quite modern looking player, which makes him something of an anachronism on those old Soviet teams".
So, Mikhailov is superior in backcheck, PK, tough play, 200-ft game, dirty play, leadership qualities. Mikhailov also top-10 all-time net presence.
Now about awards.

MVP
Mikhailov 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8
Kharlamov 1, 1, 2, 2, 4, 4, 5, 5

I'd say that Mikhailov has a little advantage in Soviet MVP awards

Soviet AST
Mikhailov 7
Kharlamov 7

Soviet GS finishes
Mikhailov 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5, 7
Kharlamov: 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 9, 12, 12

Cleary Mikhailov advantage.

Soviet point finishes
Mikhailov: 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 5, 6, 7
Kharlamov: 1, 2, 5, 5, 7, 11

I'd say its still littele Mikhailov advantage

WC/OG
Points:
Mikhailov 1, 2, 2, 2, 4, 5, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9
Kharlamov 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 5, 6, 7

Equal

WC/OG Goals:
Mikhailov 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8
Kharlamov 1, 2, 2, 4, 4, 4, 6, 6, 8, 8

Little Mikhailov advantage.

WC/OG The best forward:
Mikhailov 2
Kharlamov 1

WC/OG AST:
Mikhailov 2
Kharlamov 3

Soviet league:
Top-5 goalscoring finishes (5 minimum):
Mikhailov - 11 times
Guryshev - 10 times
Starshinov - 9 times
Makarov* - 8 times
Krutov* - 8 times
B. Mayorov - 7 times
Petrov - 6 times
Bobrov - 6 times
V. Aleksandrov - 6 times
Almetov - 6 times
Shuvalov - 6 times
A. Yakushev - 5 times
Balderis - 5 times
Firsov - 5 times

Top 5 WC/OG goalscoring finishes (4 minimum):

Mikhailov - 8 times
Kharlamov - 6 times
Makarov - 5 times
Vikulov - 5 times
Maltsev - 5 times
Loktev - 4 times
Krutov - 4 times
Firsov - 4 times
Starshinov - 4 times
Almetov - 4 times

Top 5 WC/OG scoring finishes (4 minimum):

Kharlamov - 8 times
Mikhailov - 7 times
Makarov - 6 times
Maltsev - 5 times
Petrov - 5 times
Vikulov - 5 times
Firsov - 5 times
A.Yakushev - 4 times
Larionov - 4 times

On WC + OG (the most important international games) Mikhailov holds Soviet/Russian record - 120 games 109 goals 0,91 goal per game.
Second place (Maltsev) - 126 games, 94 goals. (0.75 goal per game)

Mikhailov holds an absolute record of the Soviet league goals - 428 goals in 572 games, 0,75 goal per game

Mikhailov scored 706 goals in all events.
Only Makarov scored more (723 goals - including his NHL career, where he played significantly more games per year).
The third place holds Petrov, who scored 616 goals.
Difference between Mikhailov and Petrov is 90 goals. Its comparable to the difference between Gretzky and Howe.

Against NA:

Player

GP

G

A

P

PPG

GPG

Kharlamov

39

19

28

47

1,21

0,49

Mikhailov

40

20

16

36

0,90

0,50

Against NHL teams:

Player

GP

G

A

P

PPG

GPG

Karlamov

17

9

9

18

1,06

0,53

Mikhailov

20

10

7

17

0,85

0,50

Against WHA teams

Player

GP

G

A

P

PPG

GPG

Kharlamov

22

10

19

29

1,32

0,45

Mikhailov

20

10

8

18

0,90

0,50

Againt NHL teams (stronger competition) they have identical results. Against weaker competition Kharlamov picked up more points.

Against CSSR

Player

GP

G

A

P

PPG

GPG

Mikhailov

24

8

14

22

0,92

0,33

Kharlamov

24

10

8

18

0,75

0,42

Identical results.

So, even in offensive production Mikhailov has an advantage over Kharlamov. Its pretty little advantage, but if you take into account that Mikhailov is vastly superior in everything outside pure offensive numbers you have no doubts who was the better player.

 

[Overrated]

Leadership qualities - Mikhailov. Long-time CSKA and Soviet international captain, one of two Soviet captains whos leadership qualities constantly underlines.
Backcheck/forecheck - Mikhailov. Here is very good analysys of his backchecking game I can agree with:

Twenty years of Soviet Hockey: 1962 - 1982 (Index of player profiles in OP)

I'm going to post, over time, the complete resumes of the most notable Soviet forwards to compete in this era, which could be called the "Golden Era" of Soviet hockey. The dates selected are arbitrary, of course, but not without reason. They represent essentially the timespan which covers the...

forums.hfboards.com

PK - Mikhailov. He was one of the top PKers of his time. Here is the post with very good analysys of his PK, I agree with Study of the penalty killing of Soviet forwards during the 1960-1990 time frame
Quote: "Mikhailov killed penalties as if the survival of the planet was on the line and I don't even think that he knows what it means to not give an 100 percent effort". - this can be said about his game as whole.
Tough stile of play - Mikhailov.
Mikhailov could be mean and dirty if needed and he could stand for himself.
Another quote about his play I absolutely agree with:
"Mikhailov is a player who you appreciate more the more you watch him. He was shockingly well-rounded for a Soviet of his era, and did a lot of little things right in all zones of the ice. He was not blessed with the technical skills or blazing speed of Kharlamov, but he had excellent hockey sense and played within himself, worked and grinded constantly, and had good, quick hands, which allowed him to control the puck in tight spaces and pounce on rebounds or deflections when he had the chance. He is a quite modern looking player, which makes him something of an anachronism on those old Soviet teams".
So, Mikhailov is superior in backcheck, PK, tough play, 200-ft game, dirty play, leadership qualities. Mikhailov also top-10 all-time net presence.
Now about awards.

MVP
Mikhailov 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8
Kharlamov 1, 1, 2, 2, 4, 4, 5, 5

I'd say that Mikhailov has a little advantage in Soviet MVP awards

Soviet AST
Mikhailov 7
Kharlamov 7

Soviet GS finishes
Mikhailov 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5, 7
Kharlamov: 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 9, 12, 12

Cleary Mikhailov advantage.

Soviet point finishes
Mikhailov: 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 5, 6, 7
Kharlamov: 1, 2, 5, 5, 7, 11

I'd say its still littele Mikhailov advantage

WC/OG
Points:
Mikhailov 1, 2, 2, 2, 4, 5, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9
Kharlamov 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 5, 6, 7

Equal

WC/OG Goals:
Mikhailov 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8
Kharlamov 1, 2, 2, 4, 4, 4, 6, 6, 8, 8

Little Mikhailov advantage.

WC/OG The best forward:
Mikhailov 2
Kharlamov 1

WC/OG AST:
Mikhailov 2
Kharlamov 3

Soviet league:
Top-5 goalscoring finishes (5 minimum):
Mikhailov - 11 times
Guryshev - 10 times
Starshinov - 9 times
Makarov* - 8 times
Krutov* - 8 times
B. Mayorov - 7 times
Petrov - 6 times
Bobrov - 6 times
V. Aleksandrov - 6 times
Almetov - 6 times
Shuvalov - 6 times
A. Yakushev - 5 times
Balderis - 5 times
Firsov - 5 times

Top 5 WC/OG goalscoring finishes (4 minimum):

Mikhailov - 8 times
Kharlamov - 6 times
Makarov - 5 times
Vikulov - 5 times
Maltsev - 5 times
Loktev - 4 times
Krutov - 4 times
Firsov - 4 times
Starshinov - 4 times
Almetov - 4 times

Top 5 WC/OG scoring finishes (4 minimum):

Kharlamov - 8 times
Mikhailov - 7 times
Makarov - 6 times
Maltsev - 5 times
Petrov - 5 times
Vikulov - 5 times
Firsov - 5 times
A.Yakushev - 4 times
Larionov - 4 times

On WC + OG (the most important international games) Mikhailov holds Soviet/Russian record - 120 games 109 goals 0,91 goal per game.
Second place (Maltsev) - 126 games, 94 goals. (0.75 goal per game)

Mikhailov holds an absolute record of the Soviet league goals - 428 goals in 572 games, 0,75 goal per game

Mikhailov scored 706 goals in all events.
Only Makarov scored more (723 goals - including his NHL career, where he played significantly more games per year).
The third place holds Petrov, who scored 616 goals.
Difference between Mikhailov and Petrov is 90 goals. Its comparable to the difference between Gretzky and Howe.

Against NA:

Player

GP

G

A

P

PPG

GPG

Kharlamov

39

19

28

47

1,21

0,49

Mikhailov

40

20

16

36

0,90

0,50

Against NHL teams:

Player

GP

G

A

P

PPG

GPG

Karlamov

17

9

9

18

1,06

0,53

Mikhailov

20

10

7

17

0,85

0,50

Against WHA teams

Player

GP

G

A

P

PPG

GPG

Kharlamov

22

10

19

29

1,32

0,45

Mikhailov

20

10

8

18

0,90

0,50

Againt NHL teams (stronger competition) they have identical results. Against weaker competition Kharlamov picked up more points.

Against CSSR

Player

GP

G

A

P

PPG

GPG

Mikhailov

24

8

14

22

0,92

0,33

Kharlamov

24

10

8

18

0,75

0,42

Identical results.

So, even in offensive production Mikhailov has an advantage over Kharlamov. Its pretty little advantage, but if you take into account that Mikhailov is vastly superior in everything outside pure offensive numbers you have no doubts who was the better player.

Similar thing could then be written about Petrov too. He was by far the best defensively out of the three. In the PK thread his SH +/- was even better than Mikhailov's.

He also dropped off the least out of the three when playing against tougher competition instead of stat padding against teams that were getting 10-0'd:

Petrov also outscored both during their North American tours:

Highest PPG as a big guy defensive playmaker without secondary assists counted even when isolating for prime only seasons 68/69 --> 75/76 (after which Kharlamov suffered a devastating car crash injury + Mikhailov becoming quite old).

So wait was Kharlamov actually the worst player even though everyone thought he was the best out of the three?

 

[Namba 17]

So wait was Kharlamov actually the worst player

Out of 3 all-time great?
Yes.

 

[daver]

Kucherov's and MacKinnon's seasons are throwing wrenches into the narratives.

Both players would have been rated, by most, as clearly below Jagr, peak Ovechkin, Crosby, peak Malkin before this season given their proximity to McDavid since 17/18; in the conversation for #2 player in the world with Draisaitl and Matthews, among forwards.

McDavid's peak was reasonably being compared to Howe's offensive peak before this season and some posters were going beyond that and getting into the Wayne/Mario stratosphere.

Now we have two seasons that are close to McDavid's peak by players whose prime/peak level of play was likely not considered as Top 50 worthy before this year.

 

[Despote]

Kucherov's and MacKinnon's seasons are throwing wrenches into the narratives.

Both players would have been rated, by most, as clearly below Jagr, peak Ovechkin, Crosby, peak Malkin before this season given their proximity to McDavid since 17/18; in the conversation for #2 player in the world with Draisaitl and Matthews, among forwards.

McDavid's peak was reasonably being compared to Howe's offensive peak before this season and some posters were going beyond that and getting into the Wayne/Mario stratosphere.

Now we have two seasons that are close to McDavid's peak by players whose prime/peak level of play was likely not considered as Top 50 worthy before this year.

I wonder what you think about peak Sidney Crosby getting outscored and out-MVP'd by Henrik Sedin of all people. How much of a wrench does a fringe top 200 player outscoring peak Crosby, peak Malkin and peak Ovechkin throw into the narratives?

It's hard to take at face value that Crosby/Malkin/OV had great peaks considering Sedin scored in the same ballpark in the same era.

Peak point total after scoring decrease in 07:
Crosby 109
Malkin 113
Ovechkin 112
H. Sedin 112

Joe Sakic who arguably was not on track for top 50 all time at 31 had a peak season that was arguably better than Jagr's peak. Should we re-evaluate and tone down Jagr's seasons too or does this standard only apply to McDavid, where having ~dozen goal gap to the second best season of the era means his peak should for some reason not be taken at face value?

 

[Michael Farkas]

Putting Petrov over Kharlamov puts such weight on play off the puck that one assumes Barkov over Kucherov is also valid?

And then, too, Dmitry Yushkevich is miles ahead of Sandis Ozolins(h), right?

 

[WarriorofTime]

Kucherov's and MacKinnon's seasons are throwing wrenches into the narratives.

Both players would have been rated, by most, as clearly below Jagr, peak Ovechkin, Crosby, peak Malkin before this season given their proximity to McDavid since 17/18; in the conversation for #2 player in the world with Draisaitl and Matthews, among forwards.

McDavid's peak was reasonably being compared to Howe's offensive peak before this season and some posters were going beyond that and getting into the Wayne/Mario stratosphere.

Now we have two seasons that are close to McDavid's peak by players whose prime/peak level of play was likely not considered as Top 50 worthy before this year.

Except we can judge the seasons as they happened and see that those guys just stepped up their play to have seasons at McDavid’s level this year. Not that McDavid dropped down and had a season at their “level”. We can re-evaluate how we feel about Kucherov and MacKinnon. Not use it to say “I guess McDavid just wasn’t that good.”

 

[Gorskyontario]

Except we can judge the seasons as they happened and see that those guys just stepped up their play to have seasons at McDavid’s level this year. Not that McDavid dropped down and had a season at their “level”. We can re-evaluate how we feel about Kucherov and MacKinnon. Not use it to say “I guess McDavid just wasn’t that good.”

Well Mcdavid has missed around 7 games and started the year off terrible, it's pretty safe to say if that doesn't happen he wins another art ross. Not taking anything away from Kucherov or Mackinnon who have had crazy good seasons.

 

[daver]

Well Mcdavid has missed around 7 games and started the year off terrible, it's pretty safe to say if that doesn't happen he wins another art ross. Not taking anything away from Kucherov or Mackinnon who have had crazy good seasons.

All three had slow starts:

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

It's safe to say that McDavid doesn't win the Ross in other seasons if Mac and Kucherov played at this level in other seasons.

 

[Namba 17]

Putting Petrov over Kharlamov puts such weight on play off the puck that one assumes Barkov over Kucherov is also valid?

You have no idea what are you talking about

 

[Michael Farkas]

You have no idea what are you talking about

If I was interested in knowing what I was talking about, what would I need to do?

 

[MadLuke]

It's safe to say that McDavid doesn't win the Ross in other seasons if Mac and Kucherov played at this level in other seasons.

Seem incredibly unsafe to say that 2021 or 2023 McDavid does not win if Kucherov-Mack have season like this year back then.

2023 was quite literally just last year, so we know for sure that 153 could have been enough to win the Art Ross.... This feel like trying to overthing stuff.

McDavid playing 82 games, making a 32.36% PP, the only somewhat safe case for him not winning the Art Ross are Peak Lemieux-Gretzky with a solid puck moving D.

 

[Namba 17]

If I was interested in knowing what I was talking about, what would I need to do?

Start with studying Soviet stats

 

[Michael Farkas]

So, even in offensive production Mikhailov has an advantage over Kharlamov. Its pretty little advantage, but if you take into account that Mikhailov is vastly superior in everything outside pure offensive numbers you have no doubts who was the better player.

Ok, sure, I'll look at more stats...but using Mikhailov as an example, you posted a bunch of statistics...said that it's a relatively small advantage and pointed to "everything outside pure offensive numbers"...so wouldn't I be better served to look at the games at this point? That seems to be where the primary difference is, yes?

 

[daver]

Seem incredibly unsafe to say that 2021 or 2023 McDavid does not win if Kucherov-Mack have season like this year back then.

2023 was quite literally just last year, so we know for sure that 153 could have been enough to win the Art Ross.... This feel like trying to overthing stuff.

McDavid playing 82 games, making a 32.36% PP, the only somewhat safe case for him not winning the Art Ross are Peak Lemieux-Gretzky with a solid puck moving D.

Not 21 or 23 but certainly 2022.

The point was to not make excuses for McDavid this year as he has been pretty fortunate so far in his career with injuries, and with injuries to his competition.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Not 21 or 23 but certainly 2022.

The point was to not make excuses for McDavid this year as he has been pretty fortunate so far in his career with injuries, and with injuries to his competition.

What excuses? He's won 5 Art Rosses. He had an Art Ross caliber, strong season in his prime but a couple of other guys stepped it up in a major way to challenge and topped him this year. There is no need to over-sensationalize it. Had he matched last season's total (which likely ends up being a peak season), he would have won again, or had the the other two done what they had last season (still very strong seasons) then McDavid wins again with this year's total. He still has a lot of chances to win another and join the company of players named Mario Lemieux and Gordie Howe as the only other ones to win it 6 times, tied for second all time to a player named Wayne Gretzky (10). There's no reason to try and use this season to denigrate McDavid, an all time player having another big season to add to his resume even if it doesn't result in individual hardware.

 

[MadLuke]

McDavid confirmed this season, the not rule him out if there is X games left and has over a ppg, he can come back type of status.

In 2024 he do lead the league in pts (nothing special vs Kucherov or Mack, but he still do with a 1.95 ppg), Hyman could get 55 goals, they are close to being +40, the team should go over 105 pts again, comfortably in the playoff despite the slow start, it is like Jagr if he would have lost the Art ross to peak Lindros (or vice versa), Crosby loosing rookie of the year/hart/ross to Ovechkin/Malkin, loosing to great competition having peak career season if you are not prime Gretzky, that bound to happen. It is not like losing to someone that did not had a great season.

He still had one of the top season in the history of the sport post early slump and if we are being honest, they and him are about the cup, can have those 130-150 art Ross, need to win it.....

 

[Midnight Judges]

I wonder what you think about peak Sidney Crosby getting outscored and out-MVP'd by Henrik Sedin of all people. How much of a wrench does a fringe top 200 player outscoring peak Crosby, peak Malkin and peak Ovechkin throw into the narratives?

It's hard to take at face value that Crosby/Malkin/OV had great peaks considering Sedin scored in the same ballpark in the same era.

Peak point total after scoring decrease in 07:
Crosby 109
Malkin 113
Ovechkin 112
H. Sedin 112

Joe Sakic who arguably was not on track for top 50 all time at 31 had a peak season that was arguably better than Jagr's peak. Should we re-evaluate and tone down Jagr's seasons too or does this standard only apply to McDavid, where having ~dozen goal gap to the second best season of the era means his peak should for some reason not be taken at face value?

Ovechkin had more than twice as many goals as Henrik Sedin.

 

[Gorskyontario]

Ovechkin had more than twice as many goals as Henrik Sedin.

Sedin has more assists.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Ovechkin passes Gordie Howe to move to 10th highest scoring Age 38 season in NHL history, and moves to tie Johnny Bucyck for 2nd highest age 38 goal scoring season of all time. Caps lose both of their top 2 centers. Capitals sell at the deadline. Fueled by Ovechkin's hot streak, they make the postseason against all odds. That's the sort of insane and close to unprecedented longevity that makes Ovechkin borderline unpassable given how great his peak was for a guy like Kucherov.

 

[Gorskyontario]

Ovechkin passes Gordie Howe to move to 10th highest scoring Age 38 season in NHL history, and moves to tie Johnny Bucyck for 2nd highest age 38 goal scoring season of all time. Caps lose both of their top 2 centers. Capitals sell at the deadline. Fueled by Ovechkin's hot streak, they make the postseason against all odds. That's the sort of insane and close to unprecedented longevity that makes Ovechkin borderline unpassable given how great his peak was for a guy like Kucherov.

Unless they win some series those are completely meaningless achievements.