Where does Kucherov rank all time for wingers?

[DFC]

I think he has to be near the top of the list for non-generational wingers. I can't speak for O6 wingers, but to me Kucherov is pretty close to Jagr. Jagr was usually, but not always, the most dangerous offensive player in the league when not up against, well, basically Lemieux. I think Kucherov occupies a similar space. He's usually, but not always, the league's most consistent scoring threat outside of McDavid.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Not that this changes much, but didn't Richard play mostly with his brother and Lach, who while still all time great were not on a level of Beliveau or Gretzky?

It's a season-by-season thing, but you're right that Richard played most of his career on a line with Hall of Famers. He played with Lach and Blake on the Punch line for years, so three HHOFers on one line.

He does have some big years away from them though

1949-50
Richard: 65 points (43 goals)
Lach: 48 points
No Toe Blake

1950-51
Richard: 66 points (42 goals)
Lach: 45 points

1952-53
Richard: 61 points
Olmstead: 45 points
Lach: 41 points

1953-54
Richard: 67 points
Geoffrion: 54 points
Olmstead: 52 points


Montreal basically had a HHOF centre from 1922-1992. And had HHOF wingers, goalies, and defensemen most of the time. But it's fair that Richard basically had 2+ HHOFers on the ice with him throughout his career.

 

[filinski77]

I think he has to be near the top of the list for non-generational wingers. I can't speak for O6 wingers, but to me Kucherov is pretty close to Jagr. Jagr was usually, but not always, the most dangerous offensive player in the league when not up against, well, basically Lemieux. I think Kucherov occupies a similar space. He's usually, but not always, the league's most consistent scoring threat outside of McDavid.

Kuch is not remotely close to Jagr. Jagr has 1 less Ross trophy than Kucherov has top-10 point finishes. Jagr is also a significantly better goal scorer.

Kucherov is great and one of the best players of all-time, but not Jagr level.

Kucherov - T-10 point finishes	1/1/3/3/5/7
Jagr - T-10 point finishes	1/1/1/1/1/2/2/5/6/8/9
Kucherov - T-10 goal finishes	2/6/9/10
Jagr - T-10 goal finishes	2/2/2/2/3/4/6/9

 

[benfranklin]

Jagr, Robitaille, Ovechkin, Shanahan, Hull, Hull, Howe. Recchi, Selanne, Kurri, Lafleur, Gartner, Bossy.

Id be cool putting him in the 10-20 range already on par with guys like Iginla, Kane, Hossa, and Alfredsson.

Obviously hell only keep climbing.

I agree with this. Could potentially be a top 6-7 guy in a few seasons.

He'll get there. Needs a few more points to be a slam dunk argument, but obviously easily on pace for it barring a career ending something.

 

[DFC]

Jagr is not remotely close to Jagr. Jagr has 1 less Ross trophy than Kucherov has top-10 point finishes. Jagr is also a significantly better goal scorer.

Kucherov is great and one of the best players of all-time, but not Jagr level.

Kucherov - T-10 point finishes	1/1/3/3/5/7
Jagr - T-10 point finishes	1/1/1/1/1/2/2/5/6/8/9
Kucherov - T-10 goal finishes	2/6/9/10
Jagr - T-10 goal finishes	2/2/2/2/3/4/6/9

Kucherov still looks like he has a few more top-5s in the tank, is likely the all time best playmaking winger, and scored 140 points.

Jagr is ahead for sure, but Kucherov is probably within the next couple of spots.

 

[Peltz]

Behind Patrick Kane

Do you take a prime Kane over a prime Kucherov? Genuinely asking.

I really don't know if I would. Both are far ahead of peak Panarin in my opinion and I'm not even sure why Breadman's name was brought up, as elite as he can be at times.

I agree that prime Ovechkin and Jagr are the two best wingers since the 90s though. Maybe they're the two best wingers period.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Do you take a prime Kane over a prime Kucherov? Genuinely asking.

I really don't know if I would. Both are far ahead of peak Panarin in my opinion and I'm not even sure why Breadman's name was brought up, as elite as he can be at times.

I agree that prime Ovechkin and Jagr are the two best wingers since the 90s though. Maybe they're the two best wingers period.

Do you take a prime Kane over a prime Kucherov? Genuinely asking.

I really don't know if I would. Both are far ahead of peak Panarin in my opinion and I'm not even sure why Breadman's name was brought up, as elite as he can be at times.

I agree that prime Ovechkin and Jagr are the two best wingers since the 90s though. Maybe they're the two best wingers period.

Kucherov had his peak during the COVID playoff bubble. They beat the 12 seeded Montreal Canadiens and a nothing-special Dallas Stars team in back to back Cups. After beating nothing special islanders teams back to back years in the ECF.

Kucherov is a fantastic hockey player. He does get propped up by stellar playoff runs against some relatively weak competition and he benefits from a higher scoring era than what Kane played in during his 20’s.

I’m incapable of being unbiased here but I would take Kane over just about any other winger if I’m starting a franchise or trying to win a Cup/playoff series. The guy has been money his entire prime, after watching both of them play I’d chose Kane over Kucherov 10/10. The statistical gap between the two is merely a product of the league’s respective scoring environments when they were peaking. Nothing more.

 

[SeanMoneyHands]

Im a huge Pat Kane fan. I would take him over Kucherov. This puts his stamp on his prime years and how good he was for so long.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Where is Selanne ? 12th most career goals, 18th in points, 4th power play goals, most points and goals for a rookie.
Also played in the trap era.

And a nice international resume to boot

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Kucherov had his peak during the COVID playoff bubble. They beat the 12 seeded Montreal Canadiens and a nothing-special Dallas Stars team in back to back Cups. After beating nothing special islanders teams back to back years in the ECF.

Kucherov is a fantastic hockey player. He does get propped up by stellar playoff runs against some relatively weak competition and he benefits from a higher scoring era than what Kane played in during his 20’s.

I’m incapable of being unbiased here but I would take Kane over just about any other winger if I’m starting a franchise or trying to win a Cup/playoff series. The guy has been money his entire prime, after watching both of them play I’d chose Kane over Kucherov 10/10. The statistical gap between the two is merely a product of the league’s respective scoring environments when they were peaking. Nothing more.

I’d also take prime Kane, he might have an argument for most lethal clutch scorer in the playoffs for his generation.

 

[The Panther]

1. Howe
2. Hull
3. Jagr

These ones, yes, definitely. I think nearly everyone would agree with these. (Jagr should be ahead of Hull, however.)

4. Ovechkin
5. Richard
6. Makarov
7. Lafleur

I would probably put Kucherov somewhere in here.

8. Cook
9. Bossy
10. Kharlamov
11. Lindsay
12. Conacher
13. Kucherov

I think by now I would put Kucherov ahead of all these guys. We're talking about a player with TWO scoring titles and multiple outstanding Cup runs. Ted Lindsay, in a much smaller hockey world, had 1 scoring title (playing with a top-4 all time player who was on the rise).

Kucherov isn't a young player anymore -- he's a 30-year-old veteran with ten NHL seasons under his belt.

Other than longevity, should Kucherov really be ranked below Crosby? I was thinking about this the other day -- on my flight from Calgary to Denver to Atlanta -- and I basically conclude that he shouldn't. Over each's first 10 seasons, Crosby had a bit better points-per-game (1.31 to 1.20), but Kucherov was better in the playoffs, I think.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

These ones, yes, definitely. I think nearly everyone would agree with these. (Jagr should be ahead of Hull, however.)

I would probably put Kucherov somewhere in here.

I think by now I would put Kucherov ahead of all these guys. We're talking about a player with TWO scoring titles and multiple outstanding Cup runs. Ted Lindsay, in a much smaller hockey world, had 1 scoring title (playing with a top-4 all time player who was on the rise).

Kucherov isn't a young player anymore -- he's a 30-year-old veteran with ten NHL seasons under his belt.

Other than longevity, should Kucherov really be ranked below Crosby? I was thinking about this the other day -- on my flight from Calgary to Denver to Atlanta -- and I basically conclude that he shouldn't. Over each's first 10 seasons, Crosby had a bit better points-per-game (1.31 to 1.20), but Kucherov was better in the playoffs, I think.

If you find yourself asking if Kucherov should be ranked above Crosby, you should probably lay off the crackpipe for a little while.

 

[CanadienShark]

I think he has to be near the top of the list for non-generational wingers. I can't speak for O6 wingers, but to me Kucherov is pretty close to Jagr. Jagr was usually, but not always, the most dangerous offensive player in the league when not up against, well, basically Lemieux. I think Kucherov occupies a similar space. He's usually, but not always, the league's most consistent scoring threat outside of McDavid.

I love Kucherov, but this is nonsense.

 

[CanadienShark]

Kucherov had his peak during the COVID playoff bubble. They beat the 12 seeded Montreal Canadiens and a nothing-special Dallas Stars team in back to back Cups. After beating nothing special islanders teams back to back years in the ECF.

Kucherov is a fantastic hockey player. He does get propped up by stellar playoff runs against some relatively weak competition and he benefits from a higher scoring era than what Kane played in during his 20’s.

I’m incapable of being unbiased here but I would take Kane over just about any other winger if I’m starting a franchise or trying to win a Cup/playoff series. The guy has been money his entire prime, after watching both of them play I’d chose Kane over Kucherov 10/10. The statistical gap between the two is merely a product of the league’s respective scoring environments when they were peaking. Nothing more.

You do realize who Chicago beat in 2010, right? Full credit to the next two wins, but you're talking about weak competition here...

 

[x Tame Impala]

You do realize who Chicago beat in 2010, right? Full credit to the next two wins, but you're talking about weak competition here...

After sweeping the #1 seeded Sharks in the WCF they played a crazy deep Flyers team who had a monster of Chris Pronger on defense. Yeah the goaltending was weak but Philadelphia was otherwise a talented and formidable squad. They also had to get through their rivals Vancouver in the 2nd round and they were also a great team that year.

 

[CanadienShark]

After sweeping the #1 seeded Sharks in the WCF they played a crazy deep Flyers team who had a monster of Chris Pronger on defense. Yeah the goaltending was weak but Philadelphia was otherwise a talented and formidable squad. They also had to get through their rivals Vancouver in the 2nd round and they were also a great team that year.

What do the Sharks have to do with the Flyers in 2010?

Philly was a very, very weak team for a cup finalist.

 

[Intangir]

Name one past playmaking winger that was as good as Kucherov? I think the closest would be Pat Kane and Marty St Louis. Maybe Panarin too, but he doesn't have the hardware that Kucherov has. But aside from those two, I can't think of anyone else.

So that makes me think that Kucherov has to be a top 10 winger of all time at the very worst.

He's better than Kovalchuk, Bure, Selanne and Stamkos but just under Ovechkin and Jagr.

Where would you rank him all time for wingers?

If the History of Hockey sub-forum was livelier, this thread should go in there considering the all-time greats discussions and rankings that would inevitably follow.

It's a bit of a shame that that board isn't more widely frequented.

13th right now

1. Howe
2. Hull
3. Jagr
4. Ovechkin
5. Richard
6. Makarov
7. Lafleur
8. Cook
9. Bossy
10. Kharlamov
11. Lindsay
12. Conacher
13. Kucherov

Has a decent chance to get up to 7 if he keeps it up. Could probably argue him up to 10 right now if you wanted to.

First off, I personally believe Lindsay should be one spot higher than Kharlamov, and that Kucherov should be rated higher than Conacher at this point in time (would be 12th on my list).

As additional context, let me preface what comes next by saying that I value "peak performance" slightly more when it comes to evaluating HHOFers' legacies compared to longevity (the Bobby Orr argument).

With that off my chest, I've gotta say that I get that you're trying to look at things from multiple angles, and trying to substantiate player performance from team performance, usage, context, era, and everything.

But, with all due respects, I personally would not rank Jagr and especially Ovechkin higher than Richard and Lafleur, mostly due to the discrepancy in their respective playoffs resumes (and a higher peak for Lafleur despite lesser sustained dominance).

To me, playoff performance should be a very important factor when we evaluate all-time greats, as that extra "measure of greatness" helps "frame and define" a hockey legacy if you will in my mind.

And in that regard I'd have to say that Richard and Lafleur simply both belong in a list of "clutchiest players of all-time in the playoffs, regardless of position" whereas Jagr was also very good but not in that tier, and Ovechkin is a bit farther behind still (though he obviously remains a very good playoffs performer in his own regard).

I understand that both Lafleur and Richard played on absolutely monstrous teams talent-wise, and that they were definitely helped/insulated by the surrounding cast that they had. But they were both unbelivably important parts of those teams, those dynasties, and that has to count for something.

So yeah, as far as wingers go I'd rate them as follows;

1-Howe
2-Hull
3-Richard
4-Lafleur (highest peak of all-time for a winger in my opinion)
5-Jagr
6-Ovechkin
7-Makarov (was great internationally and when he came over as an older player but I'd have difficulty putting him above Ovie and Jagr)
8-Bossy (what Bossy did for that Islanders dynasty was ridiculous)
9-Cook
10-Lindsay
11-Kharlamov
12-Kucherov (still climbing, could go up to 7th, possibly more if he keeps it up)

Anyways, that's it from me hope you guys have a nice day/afternoon/evening/night.

 

[Dirty Dan]

In terms of Russians in their PRIME maybe he's only behind Malkin and Ovechkin for the last 20 years at least

 

[Felidae]

I can see Kucherov passing Bossy and Lafleur by the time his career is finishes depending on how he ages

A couple more elite seasons should do it since neither Lafleur nor Bossy have much of a career in an all time sense past 30.

 

[The Panther]

If you find yourself asking if Kucherov should be ranked above Crosby, you should probably lay off the crackpipe for a little while.

So, put it this way: If we compare

Crosby 2006-06 to 2014-15 (ten seasons)
to
Kucherov 2013-14 to 2023-24 (ten seasons)

...how do you rank them?

Crosby is probably a litle bit ahead here because he had a great start as a first-year NHLer, whereas Kucherov didn't really get going until his 2nd year. But in these same (respective) periods, Kucherov won 2 Cups and was arguably the best skater on the ice for both (which Crosby wasn't for his 1).

I also think Kucherov's peak seasons in here rank a bit higher than Crosby's.

 

[daver]

So, put it this way: If we compare

Crosby 2006-06 to 2014-15 (ten seasons)
to
Kucherov 2013-14 to 2023-24 (ten seasons)

...how do you rank them?

Crosby is probably a litle bit ahead here because he had a great start as a first-year NHLer, whereas Kucherov didn't really get going until his 2nd year. But in these same (respective) periods, Kucherov won 2 Cups and was arguably the best skater on the ice for both (which Crosby wasn't for his 1).

I also think Kucherov's peak seasons in here rank a bit higher than Crosby's.

How about we put it this way, there is an argument that Crosby from 13/14 to 23/24 is better than Kucherov 13/14 to 23/24:

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Crosby #2 in points, #5 in PPG, and Crosby is the significantly superior 2-way player.

Kucherov # 4 in points, #2 in PPG.

Now add an Art Ross, a Hart, Two Lindsays, a Rocket and the best career playoff performance between the two.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I know you're intentionally being stupid, but Gerard had his prime as a defensemen. Gerard and Pitre were both really good, and Gerard was arguably the second best defenseman pre-1925. Where I get stuck with Gerard is he played behind the clear cut best two-way centre of his era (Frank Nighbor) and in front of either the first or second best goalie of his era (Clint Benedict). Since guys were still playing 60 minutes, it put him in a really good place to succeed. But contemporary newspaper reports are still very glowing at his all-around play.

Pitre was a top winger of his era (even though he played defense at times) and was arguably the third or fourth best winger pre-1925. I've always been high on Pitre, and voted him second highest of anyone on the pre-merger project. He was a huge star and had some of the best longevity of his era. That he lead in point in 1915-16 over big names like Joe Malone and Newsy Lalonde is very impressive.

Darragh is the weakest of the three and was not a top 10 winger of pre-1925. He arguably peaked as a top 3-5 winger in the world.

If any early era winger deserves mention, it's Tommy Phillips, who was a huge star in the 1900s.

When a freshman asks a smart-assed question the first week of college.

 

[x Tame Impala]

What do the Sharks have to do with the Flyers in 2010?

Philly was a very, very weak team for a cup finalist.

Because in my OP I had also mentioned the lackluster Islander teams the Lightning had to get through in back to back years in order to get to the finals. Their road to the Cup was not that tough.

The Hawks beat a tough Canucks team in round 2, swept the #1 seed in the western conference finals, and beat a very deep Flyers team that earned their way to the finals despite the bad goaltending. Mike Richards, Simon Gagne, Jeff Carter, Claude Giroux, Daniel Briere, Scott Hartnell, Ville Leino, Pronger, Matt Carle, Timonen...this was a very deep roster that underperformed all season. Weak goaltending doesn't mean they were a weak opponent.

Kane had 28 points in 22 games during this campaign, in a way lower scoring era, and the infamous game 6 OT winner. Kane put up 92 points as a 33 year old, I've got no hesitation in saying he'd put up monstrous numbers if he was in his 20's during this league's scoring environment as opposed to the suffocating scoring environment he played in.

 

[kevsh]

Kucherov had his peak during the COVID playoff bubble. They beat the 12 seeded Montreal Canadiens and a nothing-special Dallas Stars team in back to back Cups. After beating nothing special islanders teams back to back years in the ECF.

There's some strange alternate history going on here claiming TB didn't face tough competition in their playoff runs (and therefore Kuch's playoff numbers aren't as great as they seem) ... I mean, seriously.

I get when you badly need a narrative to support your argument but it completely demolishes it when you actually factor in reality (or just leave it out of your argument entirely).

In 2020, for example, they beat the #1 seed Boston 4-1 (also the best defensive team) and then in the final beat the Stars (#2 defensive team). In 2021, they were the underdog against the Panthers (#4th overall) then beat Carolina (#3 overall).

But of course you only point out the Isles and Habs to suggest they had an easy path (the Isles got to the final 4 both years btw so they managed to beat someone).

Weak.

 

[x Tame Impala]

There's some strange alternate history going on here claiming TB didn't face tough competition in their playoff runs (and therefore Kuch's playoff numbers aren't as great as they seem) ... I mean, seriously.

I get when you badly need a narrative to support your argument but it completely demolishes it when you actually factor in reality (or just leave it out of your argument entirely).

In 2020, for example, they beat the #1 seed Boston 4-1 (also the best defensive team) and then in the final beat the Stars (#2 defensive team). In 2021, they were the underdog against the Panthers (#4th overall) then beat Carolina (#3 overall).

But of course you only point out the Isles and Habs to suggest they had an easy path (the Isles got to the final 4 both years btw so they managed to beat someone).

Weak.

I watched a lot of the playoffs in the COVID years. I don't think those teams were very special. Call it what you will, biased, outlandish, whatever. But they never beat the great teams like: 2010 Sharks, 2013 Kings, 2013 Bruins, 2015 Ducks, 2015 Lightning. The Lightning have lost to the great teams when they've played them. 2016 Pens, 2018 Caps, 2022 Avs.

Kucherov's career is amazing. HoF winger, he's been one of the best in the league for a while now. I just think Kane was the more talented player and has had the better career.