Where does Kucherov rank all time for wingers?

[SeanMoneyHands]

Name one past playmaking winger that was as good as Kucherov? I think the closest would be Pat Kane and Marty St Louis. Maybe Panarin too, but he doesn't have the hardware that Kucherov has. But aside from those two, I can't think of anyone else.

So that makes me think that Kucherov has to be a top 10 winger of all time at the very worst.

He's better than Kovalchuk, Bure, Selanne and Stamkos but just under Ovechkin and Jagr.

Where would you rank him all time for wingers?

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[jigglysquishy]

13th right now

1. Howe
2. Hull
3. Jagr
4. Ovechkin
5. Richard
6. Makarov
7. Lafleur
8. Cook
9. Bossy
10. Kharlamov
11. Lindsay
12. Conacher
13. Kucherov

Has a decent chance to get up to 7 if he keeps it up. Could probably argue him up to 10 right now if you wanted to.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Kucherov is amazing. Just an incredible playmaker, IQ off the charts.

 

[Pablo El Perro]

Somewhere between Lafleur and Kurri. Obvious wingers above him, imo, are Howe, Jagr, Hull, Richard, and Ovechkin. There are a few others I'd rank above him, some more arguable than others.

 

[DitchMarner]

Somewhere between Lafleur and Kurri. Obvious wingers above him, imo, are Howe, Jagr, Hull, Richard, and Ovechkin. There are a few others I'd rank above him, some more arguable than others.

I think I might put him above Kurri already. I'd probably have Bossy ahead of him. Otherwise, the only wingers since the O6 era that have clearly had better NHL careers are Lafleur, Jagr and Ovechkin.

 

[DownIsTheNewUp]

First winger ever with 100 assists in a season (he was previously tied with Jagr at 87). I would put him as the top playmaking winger ever and within the top 10 wingers overall at this point. There's going to be people here claiming there's like 6 or 7 wingers from the 90s better though.

 

[NVious]

13th right now

1. Howe
2. Hull
3. Jagr
4. Ovechkin
5. Richard
6. Makarov
7. Lafleur
8. Cook
9. Bossy
10. Kharlamov
11. Lindsay
12. Conacher
13. Kucherov

Has a decent chance to get up to 7 if he keeps it up. Could probably argue him up to 10 right now if you wanted to.

The absolute disrespect to Didier Pitre, Eddie Gerard and Jack Darragh is disgusting, you young whipper snappers need to learn about the game.

 

[jigglysquishy]

The absolute disrespect to Didier Pitre, Eddie Gerard and Jack Darragh is disgusting, you young whipper snappers need to learn about the game.

I know you're intentionally being stupid, but Gerard had his prime as a defensemen. Gerard and Pitre were both really good, and Gerard was arguably the second best defenseman pre-1925. Where I get stuck with Gerard is he played behind the clear cut best two-way centre of his era (Frank Nighbor) and in front of either the first or second best goalie of his era (Clint Benedict). Since guys were still playing 60 minutes, it put him in a really good place to succeed. But contemporary newspaper reports are still very glowing at his all-around play.

Pitre was a top winger of his era (even though he played defense at times) and was arguably the third or fourth best winger pre-1925. I've always been high on Pitre, and voted him second highest of anyone on the pre-merger project. He was a huge star and had some of the best longevity of his era. That he lead in point in 1915-16 over big names like Joe Malone and Newsy Lalonde is very impressive.

Darragh is the weakest of the three and was not a top 10 winger of pre-1925. He arguably peaked as a top 3-5 winger in the world.

If any early era winger deserves mention, it's Tommy Phillips, who was a huge star in the 1900s.

 

[Anaheim4ever]

13th right now

1. Howe
2. Hull
3. Jagr
4. Ovechkin
5. Richard
6. Makarov
7. Lafleur
8. Cook
9. Bossy
10. Kharlamov
11. Lindsay
12. Conacher
13. Kucherov

Has a decent chance to get up to 7 if he keeps it up. Could probably argue him up to 10 right now if you wanted to.

Where is Selanne ? 12th most career goals, 18th in points, 4th power play goals, most points and goals for a rookie.
Also played in the trap era.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Where is Selanne ? 12th most career goals, 18th in points, 4th power play goals, most points and goals for a rookie.
Also played in the trap era.

I've got him 17th all time

 

[Pablo El Perro]

I think I might put him above Kurri already. I'd probably have Bossy ahead of him. Otherwise, the only wingers since the O6 era that have clearly had better NHL careers are Lafleur, Jagr and Ovechkin.

I said between Lafleur and Kurri, meant to imply Kurri is slightly below him.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Behind Patrick Kane

 

[Hockey Outsider]

13th right now

1. Howe
2. Hull
3. Jagr
4. Ovechkin
5. Richard
6. Makarov
7. Lafleur
8. Cook
9. Bossy
10. Kharlamov
11. Lindsay
12. Conacher
13. Kucherov

Has a decent chance to get up to 7 if he keeps it up. Could probably argue him up to 10 right now if you wanted to.

Out of curiosity, where do you rank Kane?

 

[jigglysquishy]

Out of curiosity, where do you rank Kane?

14. Geoffrion
15. Bathgate
16. Mahovlich
17. Selanne
18. Moore
19. Phillips
20. Kane

 

[KevinRedkey]

He's in the discussion for top-10 IMO

Most of the guys ahead of him have played a lot more games than him.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

He is most definitely top 10

 

[hurdemz]

He is most definitely top 10

Absolutely!

Racks up huge regular season points.

An absolute beast in the playoffs with rings to prove it

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

14. Geoffrion
15. Bathgate
16. Mahovlich
17. Selanne
18. Moore
19. Phillips
20. Kane

curious what your reasoning is here

hard for me to see an argument for selanne over kane without really overvaluing the extra 200 games played

 

[bobholly39]

13th right now

1. Howe
2. Hull
3. Jagr
4. Ovechkin
5. Richard
6. Makarov
7. Lafleur
8. Cook
9. Bossy
10. Kharlamov
11. Lindsay
12. Conacher
13. Kucherov

Has a decent chance to get up to 7 if he keeps it up. Could probably argue him up to 10 right now if you wanted to.

I never really considered Kucherov could match/top Lafleur. I think super highly of Kucherov, and even I think that might be high for him. Though I suppose Lafleur is definitely vulnerable with a shorter prime.

In my opinion - Lafleur/Makarov are interchangeable (in fact I'd slot Lafleur ahead) - so if Kucherov can pass one, he could pass the other, which would make his ceiling #6 on this list.

I don't think he has any shot at the top 5 (I guess if he keeps adding Art Rosses and Harts we'll have to re-asses, but odds are he's going to slow down soon at his age).

I'd have him around 10th right now. Definitely above Lindsay, who I find overrated at times.

 

[myleafs]

First winger ever with 100 assists in a season (he was previously tied with Jagr at 87). I would put him as the top playmaking winger ever and within the top 10 wingers overall at this point. There's going to be people here claiming there's like 6 or 7 wingers from the 90s better though.

Forget the 90's, we got posters over in the leafs board that believe Marner is better than Kuch.....lol.

 

[zar]

14. Geoffrion
15. Bathgate
16. Mahovlich
17. Selanne
18. Moore
19. Phillips
20. Kane

Strange where you rank guys like Richard, Geoffrion, Bossy… and then totally omit Kurri from a top 20 winger ranking.

Curious to hear more about your weighting.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Strange where you rank guys like Richard, Geoffrion, Bossy… and then totally omit Kurri from a top 20 winger ranking.

Curious to hear more about your weighting.

I try to take a multi-faceted approach considering peak, prime, longevity, playoffs, defense, quality of teammates. For whatever it's worth, I have Kurri at 25 all-time. If you want to isolate to a 20 year period around his prime (1975-1995), I would have him 4th behind Makarov, Lafleur, and Bossy.

Richard way above Kurri is pretty easy. Richard's goalscoring prowess was phenomenal and is still probably the best playoff goalscorer ever.

These four players are all an interesting comparison. They all won multiple Cups on deep teams and usually played with an all-time great centre(Richard with Beliveau, Geoffrion with Beliveau and Richard, Bossy with Trottier, Kurri with Gretzky). Everyone except Kurri had at least one season away from that centre or when they greatly outscored that centre (Richard 1945 (though he played with Lach), Richard 1951, Richard 1953, Geoffrion 1961, Bossy 1986). All were strong playoff performers, though I do think Richard and Bossy were good enough that it becomes a clear advantage. All were better goal scorers than playmakers. Kurri is the clear best defensively though.

If you want to compare their offensive resumes. Some of Richard's resume is war-effected.

Points
Richard: 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8
Geoffrion: 1, 1, 4, 6, 6, 7, 7
Bossy: 2, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6 6
Kurri: 2, 2, 4, 7, 8, 10

Goals
Richard: 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5
Geoffrion: 1, 1, 3, 3, 5, 5, 8
Bossy: 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 5, 7
Kurri: 1, 2, 3, 5

Kurri is hurt in that after 1988-89 he puts up good but not great season. He showed he could produce at an elite level away from Gretzky, but not consistently and certainly at a spot where he could be a top scorer over a whole season away from Gretzky.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

IMO he has broken into the Top 10.

Especially considering he has a hell of a case for having been cheated out of 2 Smythes and a 2nd Hart

 

[Sheppy]

IMO he has broken into the Top 10.

Especially considering he has a hell of a case for having been cheated out of 2 Smythes and a 2nd Hart

I agree with this. Could potentially be a top 6-7 guy in a few seasons.

 

[DoMakc]

I try to take a multi-faceted approach considering peak, prime, longevity, playoffs, defense, quality of teammates. For whatever it's worth, I have Kurri at 25 all-time. If you want to isolate to a 20 year period around his prime (1975-1995), I would have him 4th behind Makarov, Lafleur, and Bossy.

Richard way above Kurri is pretty easy. Richard's goalscoring prowess was phenomenal and is still probably the best playoff goalscorer ever.

These four players are all an interesting comparison. They all won multiple Cups on deep teams and usually played with an all-time great centre(Richard with Beliveau, Geoffrion with Beliveau and Richard, Bossy with Trottier, Kurri with Gretzky). Everyone except Kurri had at least one season away from that centre or when they greatly outscored that centre (Richard 1945 (though he played with Lach), Richard 1951, Richard 1953, Geoffrion 1961, Bossy 1986). All were strong playoff performers, though I do think Richard and Bossy were good enough that it becomes a clear advantage. All were better goal scorers than playmakers. Kurri is the clear best defensively though.

If you want to compare their offensive resumes. Some of Richard's resume is war-effected.

Points
Richard: 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8
Geoffrion: 1, 1, 4, 6, 6, 7, 7
Bossy: 2, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6 6
Kurri: 2, 2, 4, 7, 8, 10

Goals
Richard: 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5
Geoffrion: 1, 1, 3, 3, 5, 5, 8
Bossy: 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 5, 7
Kurri: 1, 2, 3, 5

Kurri is hurt in that after 1988-89 he puts up good but not great season. He showed he could produce at an elite level away from Gretzky, but not consistently and certainly at a spot where he could be a top scorer over a whole season away from Gretzky.

Not that this changes much, but didn't Richard play mostly with his brother and Lach, who while still all time great were not on a level of Beliveau or Gretzky?