Where does Holland's final roster with the Wings rank among the worst teams in NHL history 2018-19

[Retire91]

Curious on your thoughts. Not expecting it to be all that bad but genuinely curious for objective thoughts. Maybe also if you could offer your opinion on two aspects "all" history and also modern history like last 20 years.

Forwards:​

1. Dylan Larkin - 22 years old -- $6.1 million
2. Andreas Athanasiou - 24 years old -- $3.0 million
3. Anthony Mantha - 24 years old -- $832,500
4. Tyler Bertuzzi - 23 years old -- $1.4 million
5. Frans Nielsen - 34 years old -- $5.25 million
6. Thomas Vanek - 35 years old -- $3.0 million
7. Darren Helm - 32 years old -- $3.85 million
8. Luke Glendening - 29 years old -- $1.8 million
9. Michael Rasmussen - 19 years old -- $894,167
10. Justin Abdelkader - 32 years old -- $4.25 million
11. Jacob de la Rose - 23 years old -- $900,000
12. Christoffer Ehn - 22 years old -- $741,667
13. Martin Frk - 25 years old -- $1.05 million
14. Gustav Nyquist - 29 years old -- $4.75 million

Defensemen:​

1. Niklas Kronwall - 38 years old -- $4.75 million
2. Mike Green - 33 years old -- $5.375 million
3. Jonathan Ericsson - 34 years old -- $4.25 million
4. Trevor Daley - 35 years old -- $3.166 million
5. Danny DeKeyser - 28 years old -- $5.0 million
6. Nick Jensen - 28 years old -- $812,500
7. Dennis Cholowski - 20 years old -- $894,167
8. Filip Hronek - 21 years old -- $894,167

Goaltenders:​

1. Jimmy Howard - 34 years old -- $5.291 million
2. Jonathan Bernier - 30 years old -- $3.0 million

Prospects Pool​

1. Filip Zadina
2. Joe Veleno
3. Evgeny Svechnikov
4. Givani Smith
5. Martin Frk
6. Teemu Pulkkinen
7. Joe Hicketts
8. Libor Sulak

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[MS]

Curious on your thoughts. Not expecting it to be all that bad but genuinely curious for objective thoughts. Maybe also if you could offer your opinion on two aspects "all" history and also modern history like last 20 years.

Forwards:​

1. Dylan Larkin - 22 years old -- $6.1 million
2. Andreas Athanasiou - 24 years old -- $3.0 million
3. Anthony Mantha - 24 years old -- $832,500
4. Tyler Bertuzzi - 23 years old -- $1.4 million
5. Frans Nielsen - 34 years old -- $5.25 million
6. Thomas Vanek - 35 years old -- $3.0 million
7. Darren Helm - 32 years old -- $3.85 million
8. Luke Glendening - 29 years old -- $1.8 million
9. Michael Rasmussen - 19 years old -- $894,167
10. Justin Abdelkader - 32 years old -- $4.25 million
11. Jacob de la Rose - 23 years old -- $900,000
12. Christoffer Ehn - 22 years old -- $741,667
13. Martin Frk - 25 years old -- $1.05 million
14. Gustav Nyquist - 29 years old -- $4.75 million

Defensemen:​

1. Niklas Kronwall - 38 years old -- $4.75 million
2. Mike Green - 33 years old -- $5.375 million
3. Jonathan Ericsson - 34 years old -- $4.25 million
4. Trevor Daley - 35 years old -- $3.166 million
5. Danny DeKeyser - 28 years old -- $5.0 million
6. Nick Jensen - 28 years old -- $812,500
7. Dennis Cholowski - 20 years old -- $894,167
8. Filip Hronek - 21 years old -- $894,167

Goaltenders:​

1. Jimmy Howard - 34 years old -- $5.291 million
2. Jonathan Bernier - 30 years old -- $3.0 million

Prospects Pool​

1. Filip Zadina
2. Joe Veleno
3. Evgeny Svechnikov
4. Givani Smith
5. Martin Frk
6. Teemu Pulkkinen
7. Joe Hicketts
8. Libor Sulak

Not even in the discussion really.

Just a generic 80-85 point non-playoff team. There are 5-8 rosters in the league worse than this every year.

Half of that forward group is still in the NHL 5 years later, which is probably more than average even.

 

[tabness]

Holland came in as GM after the 1997 cup when it was good real good Mike Babcock and left the team bad real bad Michael Jackson

I'm not as hard on Holland as many other Wings fans especially here on HF, I don't get into the armchair GM analysis as much, and I can sort of understand his proclivity to sign a bunch of vets given that it worked out so well for him in the no cap slower dead puck era where veteran savvy was more valued, plus his push to extend the playoff streak (probably hoping for another 2013 type situation), but yeah, that's a gutted roster from what so many of us came up with from different generations lol

The prospect pool is just embarassing especially in retrospect

 

[GMR]

Yeah, the prospect pool is easily the worst.

Roster is bottom 5 in the league, but the 2020 team was even worse.

 

[Retire91]

Hmmm so all history it's not close. But since the salary cap I think 2018-2019 wings enter the conversation as the worst roster since the salary cap? Although other teams have had worse records they all had notable prospects. I think the prospect pool is what puts the wings under. 2019-2020 things went worse due to prioritizing draft placement but at that time the wings already picked Seider in the pipeline.

In taking a look 2016-17 Avalanche are in the conversation but also had Mikko Rantanen and Cale Makar in the pipeline

2018-19 Senators had a worse record but also had notables in the pipeline Drake Batherson Josh Norris

I think contract are worth a look where the wings were in poor shape too with Abdelkader, Helm, Nielsen, Howard, DeKeyser consuming 19.791 mill in cap space performing no where near that hit for their cost and term.

On Aves and Sens really only Booby Ryan stands out to me, and that was less skill level IMO and more injuries.

I don't know if the discussion is interesting if not I'll just let the thread fade out.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Not even in the bottom 200, probably

 

[MadLuke]

Leagues had the Scouts, Golden Seals, Capitals, North Stars, Rockies in the 70s, that had a rough time and I imagine at many other point in the past.

Considering how it went the year right after (and until now really), it is a good point about the prospect pool, but that team still had Kronwall and other vets with Larkin to make it you regular bad team.

At the time, Mantha-Bertuzzi had probably more buzz than what they turned out to be, specially Mantha (6foot5 goal a game in the junior player can make you overoptimism sometime) I remember trade rumours with the RedWings never trading him type of talks from the media,.

missed the playoff what 5 others years in a row after that year

 

[kaiser matias]

Leagues had the Scouts, Golden Seals, Capitals, North Stars, Rockies in the 70s, that had rough time and I imagine at many point in the apst

Even some of the Red Wings teams from that era (the Dead Things) are arguably worse.

 

[The Pale King]

1983-84 Pittsburgh Penguins Roster, Stats, Injuries, Scores, Results, Shootouts | Hockey-Reference.com

Check out the latest Pittsburgh Penguins Roster, Stats, Injuries, Scores, Results, Shootouts and more on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

Lots of folks will talk about the 03-04 Penguins but the squad from 20 seasons prior was arguably worse. Big drop off after Mike Bullard, which is a troubling sentence in any context. It's not a particularly old team, but how many of these guys were playing more than a handful of games in the league 5 seasons later?

I do have a soft spot for Denis Heron as a prototypical bad team goalie (outside of his stint in Montreal) but he's not saving them here.

 

[norrisnick]

Yeah, the prospect pool is easily the worst.

Roster is bottom 5 in the league, but the 2020 team was even worse.

I looked it up once, the '19-'20 Wings had the lowest point percentage of any team that wasn't an expansion team within I think 3 years. EDIT - no, a quick check doesn't check out, as a couple other Wing teams were even worse in the 70s 80s. Maybe it was just the cap era.

 

[MadLuke]

no, a quick check doesn't check out,

To note, in the 3 points game if you reach OT era point percentage can be inflated versus the past.
The 2019-2020 is the 38th worst point percentage ever:

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

26th post ww2, but they got 5 points in overtime lost, .207 without them, would be the worst ever for a RedWings team I think (not sure if it is valid to just remove them like that specially when at some points you did not have to not loose in the overtime because there was no OT to start with... but we get the point.

 

[The Panther]

The 2019-20 Red Wings' performance was brutal, but were they as bad as the 1985-86 Red Wings? It's a tough one.

Both clubs were last overall in offense and last overall in defense. I guess the 2020 club's percentage (when factoring in overtimes point) is slightly worse, but then again the 1986 squad gave up 415 goals against, which is pretty special. (You know you're in trouble when the defensive depth is so bad that Barry Melrose plays 14 games on D and goaltender Corrado Micalef -- discusssed on here recently as arguably the worst NHL goaltender of all time -- appears in 11 games.)

The difference, of course, is that the 1986 club had Yzerman and a nice clutch of young talent ready to bloom, whereas -- it seems, so far -- the 2020-era club did not, particularly.

Someone mentioned the 1983-84 Penguins. Yes, that club looks bloody awful, especially the defence. I think I argued in some other thread that that club had the worst lineup of defencemen I've ever seen (at least on non-expansion teams).

 

[buffalowing88]

The Sabres right before Eichel were atrocious. I probably will never fully get back to being a fan of them after the 14-15 season. When a team craters in that dishonest of a fashion, only a few years removed from being a respectable franchise, it scars you.

In Buffalo, even the Bills were always taking big swings at least, they just couldn't hit on them. The Sabres were a calculated implosion that's gross to think about and Eichel leaving is the price you pay for this.

Those early-80s Devils and Penguins teams were rough, too.

At least with the Red Wings in 2018-2019, they had Mantha, who I believed at the time was still a really legit player in the making and Larkin, who has underwhelmed in the years since.

 

[NyQuil]

I think you need to put in a caveat to exclude expansion teams, especially before the NHL wised up and forced teams to protect fewer players.

The 1992-1993 Senators won 10 times.

EDIT: See that it was just the last 20 years or so. My mistake!