Where does Connor Hellebuyck now rank?

[Michael Farkas]

Never said Andersen is elite. I said it's Helle, Vasi and Bob. Then started listing off the rest that are close. Maybe should have put a break in there before continuing on the rest of the list.

Compared to Helle? Yeah I'd say Shesterkin is less consistent. One season of play that is truly elite and then kinda spotty since.

Edit: As far as Bob goes for this generation he's been good. Since Helle has entered the league he's been playing well won a Vezina and a Cup but age looks like it's catching up.

Edit #2: I should have also said this is all about the time Helle has been in the league so really since about 2016 or so. It's really only Helle, Bob, Vasi at the top with a few guys who have been somewhat consistent or had an elite season here or there. If you have a rebuttal to that let's hear it.

Apologies. You're right, I misread that.

I think Hellebuyck and Shestyorkin are on the same level. The top level. I don't think the Rangers get enough discredit for how bad they are defensively a lot of nights. Not that the Jets are always darlings either, but they've had better team defense than New York for my money.

Bob is one of the least consistent goalies post-lockout. I'd certainly put Igor ahead of Bob in every way.

Bobrovsky is probably the most mentally weak goalies I've seen. He wears his mental framework on his sleeve...and by sleeve, I mean in his technique. Once he feels the pressure or the game starts to slip away from him, his game flat out changes. That's why his playoff career has been such a disaster (recency bias aside, of course. But neither of those runs were anything super special).

From a perspective of talent, "MVP goalie-ing", and consistency...Igor is a tier or two above Bobrovsky. Not to be social media-y about this but...basically Igor is everything Bobrovsky wants to be. Like, that's his absolute ceiling, which Bobrovsky doesn't bring to the table nearly enough over any span of time that can be flagged in Bobrovsky's career...

 

[Daximus]

Apologies. You're right, I misread that.

I think Hellebuyck and Shestyorkin are on the same level. The top level. I don't think the Rangers get enough discredit for how bad they are defensively a lot of nights. Not that the Jets are always darlings either, but they've had better team defense than New York for my money.

Bob is one of the least consistent goalies post-lockout. I'd certainly put Igor ahead of Bob in every way.

Bobrovsky is probably the most mentally weak goalies I've seen. He wears his mental framework on his sleeve...and by sleeve, I mean in his technique. Once he feels the pressure or the game starts to slip away from him, his game flat out changes. That's why his playoff career has been such a disaster (recency bias aside, of course. But neither of those runs were anything super special).

From a perspective of talent, "MVP goalie-ing", and consistency...Igor is a tier or two above Bobrovsky. Not to be social media-y about this but...basically Igor is everything Bobrovsky wants to be. Like, that's his absolute ceiling, which Bobrovsky doesn't bring to the table nearly enough over any span of time that can be flagged in Bobrovsky's career...

Honestly that's on me it's been a long night/morning just got off night shift. Should have been a bit more clear on what I was trying to convey.

Yeah I can agree with that. Bob can look really shakey when things aren't going his way. Guys like Helle and Shesterkin just have that nothing can phase me attitude that makes elite goalies. Just need to see more of him. It's really only his 4th season as a full fledged starter in the league. A few more seasons of this and he likely gets there. Oettinger and Gustavsson also seem like they can get there as well. Both of them seem to be the next generation of likely high end Vezina level goalies. Thought Knight would be there by now but he's still young.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Knight has had his battles. Hopefully he's on the way up. Big fan of Otter.

Lost in all this is how good Juuse Saros is too. Sometimes there are guys that you go, "if you want to learn how to play the game...watch this guy." - Juuse Saros is that for me. I don't know how to shoehorn him into this discussion exactly, but it'd feel incomplete without him...even though his team isn't....uhhh...participating.

 

[Daximus]

Knight has had his battles. Hopefully he's on the way up. Big fan of Otter.

Lost in all this is how good Juuse Saros is too. Sometimes there are guys that you go, "if you want to learn how to play the game...watch this guy." - Juuse Saros is that for me. I don't know how to shoehorn him into this discussion exactly, but it'd feel incomplete without him...even though his team isn't....uhhh...participating.

Yeah Saros has been solid and would probably look even better on a more consistent team. The Preds really started to trend down as he took the reigns from Rinne. Now they are just in a tailspin and he's stuck there with a big new contract and a team that is full of past their prime players and if things don't go right could be entering a rebuild soon. Hopefully he has the good sense to abandon ship and try and land himself on a contender if they do but I think he probably likes being in Nashville.

 

[Daximus]

That feels about right. Not necessarily the order, but those five together post-Brodeur.

I like Hellebucyk's game. Very hard to rate him all time but I doubt I could come up with 30 or 40 goaltenders I would want more. Steady, high level goaltending. In terms of the typical markers that people look for in terms of goaltenders greatness, a big playoffs followed by a Stanley Cup in WInnipeg would probably shoot him up very high for many, thinking above Parent at least.

Have to wonder how another Vezina season alone does for his legacy. We haven't seen a back to back Vezina since Brodeur in 07 and 08. But Brodeur had the playoff performances to back them up. I'm not even going to think about a Cup because it's damn hard to win a Cup these days. I think if the Jets were more keen on resting him up he'd have a better shot to really play his A game in the playoffs but he seems hell bent on playing every single game he possibly can.

 

[Crosby2010]

Give me a break. Even in the year Liut won a Pearson, he was not that great. 33 wins and a 0.894% was good for 1981, but by no means spectular. IN fact Rick heinz, a backup goalie had 0.922, and Liut was not the leader in any category (Wins, saving percentage, GAA, etc).

Liut was a good goalie, but nowhere remotely close to Hellebuyck. If one were to compile a list of the top 10 NHL goalies of the 80s, Liut would barely make the cut. Hellebuyck, OTOH, would be in the top 3, since 2014.

He's having a heck of a year so far this year. If we wins the Vezina this year that's three for him. Very hard to deny someone like that. I think Liut would easily make the cut for a top 10 goalie in the 1980s though. He led the entire 1980s in wins. So, there's that. I could be wrong here but Roy Worters is the only goalie in the HHOF that never played in the Cup final. But he was a Hart winner and was close to it other multiples times too. I think Helleybuyck needs that big run like Bobrovsky had in 2023. It certainly put Bob over the hump and removed any doubts. The Cup in 2024 was obviously huge too.

 

[67 others]

Rinne was better than Helly

Rinne played from age 26 to 36 as a starter, won 1 Vezina, 2 runner ups and a 3rd and 7th place finish.

Hellebuyck played from age 23 to 31 so far as a starter, has won 2 vezina's, a runner up, and 3rd and 4th place finish

Their records are close, but Hellebuyck had 7 years before he is the age Rinne was at retirement.

This year Hellebuyck is 15-2-0 so far with a fantastic GAA and sv% and 3 SO. Looks better than ever.

His record is already better. If he finishes high this year it's not even a discussion. Hellebuyck is better

 

[Yukon Joe]

I don't usually stop in this forum but I saw a Connor Hellebuyck discussion and couldn't resist.

My only comment is against the notion that "another" Vezina will really impact his legacy. The man already has two. In the last 20 years the only ones to win the Vezina twice are Bobrovsky and Tim Thomas.

I'm a huge Helle fan, but short of him winning another 2-3 and putting him up there with Brodeur or Hasek, what he needs to do is win a Cup. Even tough I think that's unfair - that if he played in Toronto or New York he'd be hailed as a top 10 all-time goaltender.

 

[MadLuke]

In the last 20 years the only ones to win the Vezina twice are Bobrovsky and Tim Thomas.

I am not sure if it is poor Martin Brodeur or sadly how fast time past these days for those days to feel more than 20 years ago...

First reaction, is Vasilevskly the only one with an argument over Hellebuyck since 2017 or so ?

Shesterkin, Sorokin, etc... could build a case, but not sure if they have one right now.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I guess to be fair, Brodeur won 3 in the last 20 years...not twice haha

 

[Daximus]

I am not sure if it is poor Martin Brodeur or sadly how fast time past these days for those days to feel more than 20 years ago...

First reaction, is Vasilevskly the only one with an argument over Hellebuyck since 2017 or so ?

Shesterkin, Sorokin, etc... could build a case, but not sure if they have one right now.

Yeah Vasi had a solid 6 years of being the best goalie in the game that culminated in 2 Cups and a Smythe so I think he's probably ahead of Helle right now. Though he has fallen off a little the last season and a bit.

The bigger question is will a 3rd Vezina, 2 back to back, be enough to put Helle over Vasi? Or does Vasi's two Cups and a Smythe still give him the edge over Helle.

 

[Daximus]

He's having a heck of a year so far this year. If we wins the Vezina this year that's three for him. Very hard to deny someone like that. I think Liut would easily make the cut for a top 10 goalie in the 1980s though. He led the entire 1980s in wins. So, there's that. I could be wrong here but Roy Worters is the only goalie in the HHOF that never played in the Cup final. But he was a Hart winner and was close to it other multiples times too. I think Helleybuyck needs that big run like Bobrovsky had in 2023. It certainly put Bob over the hump and removed any doubts. The Cup in 2024 was obviously huge too.

Maybe someone with a bit more knowledge of the early years of the league can chime in on this. The Vezina looks to have gone to George Hainsworth who had superior numbers to Worters the year he won the Hart. Why does a goalie with worse numbers than the Vezina winner get a Hart? Is this a Taylor Hall situation?

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Maybe someone with a bit more knowledge of the early years of the league can chime in on this. The Vezina looks to have gone to George Hainsworth who had superior numbers to Worters the year he won the Hart. Why does a goalie with worse numbers than the Vezina winner get a Hart? Is this a Taylor Hall situation?

Well, the Vezina was based on a calculation (a team-based one, at that) and the Hart was based on judgment.

 

[Daximus]

Well, the Vezina was based on a calculation and the Hart was based on judgment.

That makes sense so it's one of those Taylor Hall situations. He just had the vibes going in his direction.

Edit: On further look it looks like he wasn't even the clear cut 2nd best goalie that year.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Goaltender MVPs (Hart consideration) back then wasn't really a numbers game, it was more of a response to "wow, your situation is so bad and you're trying your best"

There's a stark contrast on film on what Worters played like and played behind vs. what, say, Hainsworth played with and played behind.

 

[MadLuke]

Not sure I was even aware that before 1947 the Vezina trophy was voted

 

[Michael Farkas]

Not sure I was even aware that before 1947 the Vezina trophy was voted

Hmmm...?

 

[jigglysquishy]

Vezina voting 1982-2006 and 2018-2024 tends to be good, not great, but good, at capturing who the best goalie was. Vezina voting 2007-2017 tends to miss the mark. Lundqvist, Price, and Quick are going to be our top 3 goalies in the project from the era and combine for 2 Vezinas. Bobrovsky and Thomas have two each.

Looking through Vezina shares by era, 2007-2017 has the most randomness. Hardest to accumulate votes. Highest rate of one offs. Goalies are at a systematic disadvantage compared to other eras.

My running theory is that with it being a very low scoring era and Vezina being highly correlated to SV%, it's easier for a good defensive team to gift their goalie a Vezina. The Bruins, with Bergeron, Chara, and Claude Julien, won 3 Vezinas under two goalies in short order.

Now that scoring is back up it's harder for team defense to lead the league in SV%.

Hmmm...?

1926-1947 it was a GAA award. 1947-1982 it was a least goals scored against award. Functionally identical.

 

[MadLuke]

1926-1947 it was a GAA award.

That would be why I was not aware that it was voted, which should answer the: The Vezina looks to have gone to George Hainsworth who had superior numbers to Worters the year he won the Hart. question.

 

[jigglysquishy]

That makes sense so it's one of those Taylor Hall situations. He just had the vibes going in his direction.

Edit: On further look it looks like he wasn't even the clear cut 2nd best goalie that year.

We've dug into the era. Lots of goalie Hart voting that doesn't align with best season. Roy Worters. John Ross Roach. Earl Robertson.

Worters came in at 3rd in the era behind Charlie Gardiner and Tiny Thompson.

 

[Daximus]

We've dug into the era. Lots of goalie Hart voting that doesn't align with best season. Roy Worters. John Ross Roach. Earl Robertson.

Worters came in at 3rd in the era behind Charlie Gardiner and Tiny Thompson.

That's interesting so the award has always been a little ambiguous. I never understood why we don't just have a true MVP award like pretty much every other sport on the planet. We seem to have attached to it, in recent times, the qualification of having to make the playoffs as well. At least it seems like a more recent thing, perhaps this has been brought up before in the past when voting for the award. MLB, NBA, NFL, MLS, Fifa, NCAA. Every other league and competition votes on just the best player that season. Team success is not a factor but it can help.

 

[MadLuke]

I never understood why we don't just have a true MVP award like pretty much every other sport on the planet. We seem to have attached to it, in recent times, the qualification of having to make the playoffs as well. At least it seems like a more recent thing, perhaps this has been brought up before in the past when voting for the award. MLB, NBA, NFL, MLS, Fifa, NCAA. Every other league and competition votes on just the best player that season

I feel tension is right there, first metion of a true mvp award (we think oh, ok go for more valuable regardless of who is the best as the name say), then we go to the opposite the rest of the paragraph.

Season standing is a huge factor for the nba and nfl, a single time and it was peak Kareem Adul-Jabbar level that a nba player won without making the playoff, happened only twice in the history of the nfl.

Many voters openly talk about team success in other sports.

Baseball is where it is different, you can be on a last place team, making the playoff was so hard for so long and team success influence by a single player is so small.

 

[Daximus]

I feel tension is right there, first true mvp award (we think oh, ok go for more valuable regardless of who is the best as the name say), then we go to the opposite.

Season standing is a really big factor for the nba and nfl, a single time and it was peak Kareem Adul-JAbbar level that a nba player won without making the playoff, happened only twice in the history of the nfl.

Many voters openly talk about team success in other sports.

Baseball is where it is different, you can be on a last place team, making the playoff was so hard for so long and team success influence by a single player is so small.

I think with the NBA it is rare that a player is among the best in the league and their team doesn't make the playoffs. NBA players have such a massive influence on the team dynamic. Same might be true for the NFL which seems to generally always go to the best QB, with a few exceptions, and the best QB is rarely on a team that does poorly since they have so much influence on the game. It's a rarity in the NHL as well but it does happen that there is a player that is generally doing much better than their peers but their team, despite their overall performance, is just not up to task in other areas. Taylor Hall is a prime example of such a situation. Was he the best player in the league that year? No absolutely not. Did he contribute the most to his teams success? That is debatable. But he was not at any point in that season the best player in any meaningful way.

 

[MadLuke]

I think with the NBA it is rare that a player is among the best in the league and their team doesn't make the playoffs.

it is more than just the playoff or not, if your team is not top 3 in your conference good luck winning,. Win share is an important stats...
. In 12 of the last 14 years, the league leader in WS/48 is the MVP, with the exceptions of 2010-11 and 2016-17.

And you need to win a lot of game to be in that conversation

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5d379e3df3165a0001094080/t/5dbf17c311cc3a00ac711936/1572804549042/NBA+MVP+Prediction+.pdf

Among the 65 NBA MVPs from the 1955-1956 season to the 2018-2019season, 41 of them were on the team that had the best regular season record
Only 6 MVPs belonged to the team ofseason win% below .60, and more than two thirds of the MVPs’ teams had the win% more than .70.

That the only other sport that I know enough about mvp vote to talk about, but in the nba if anything team success is more central than the nhl to win the mvp, in the nhl making the playoff is enough, if anything making it barely (Theodore, Hall, etc....) can even help, as it make your value so obvious and seeding-home advantage in the nhl is not that important anyway, so very little value to push your team more than a 6th place spot.

 

[Daximus]

it is more than just the playoff or not, if your team is not top 3 in your conference good luck winning,. Win share is an important stats...
. In 12 of the last 14 years, the league leader in WS/48 is the MVP, with the exceptions of 2010-11 and 2016-17.

And you need to win a lot of game to be in that conversation

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5d379e3df3165a0001094080/t/5dbf17c311cc3a00ac711936/1572804549042/NBA+MVP+Prediction+.pdf

Among the 65 NBA MVPs from the 1955-1956 season to the 2018-2019season, 41 of them were on the team that had the best regular season record
Only 6 MVPs belonged to the team ofseason win% below .60, and more than two thirds of the MVPs’ teams had the win% more than .70.

That the only other sport that I know enough about mvp vote to talk about, but in the nba if anything team success is more central than the nhl to win the mvp, in the nhl making the playoff is enough, if anything making it barely (Theodore, Hall, etc....) can even help, as it make your value so obvious and seeding-home advantage in the nhl is not that important anyway, so very little value to push your team more than a 6th place spot.

How many of those players who have won the NBA MVP award didn't lead in at least one statistical category? Didn't Jokic who won last year have a ridiculous stat line? Granted I am not completely aware of every players NBA stats but generally they are among the top 3 in at least a few categories I'd imagine and probably 1st in at least 1. How many NBA MVP winners weren't top 3 in anything? Because that was Taylor Hall the year he won the Hart. He wasn't top 3 in a single statistical category. He didn't lead the league in a single statistical category.