Where do you place Ovechkin on your personal list of the greatest players of all time?

[Victorias]

this

i live in vancouver, the third biggest market in the biggest hockey country in the world

there are literally not enough ice rinks for the amount of kids who want to (and can afford to) play

Bill James wrote about this some time ago now:

Shakespeare and Verlander | Articles | Bill James Online

I’m not a nostalgic person who clings to some imaginary hockey golden age. But I began playing in the mid-60s and eventually coached for 35 years. What do I know for sure? That a larger talent pool does not always mean a superior talent pool. Anyone who has read James’ article will likely know exactly what I mean.

I think this is a bit of a different situation than in the article. We’re not looking at an untapped skill in some location (eg literary talent in Topeka) but rather a skill with extremely high rewards (hockey talent) in that one city over time. eg baseball talent in Topeka 50 years ago vs today

Let’s take Vancouver. As Vancouver’s hockey playing population increases, so does the talent pool since the incentives are only increasing. However, there are bottlenecks - as vadim pointed out - such as number of rinks. At the same time, rinks have been built elsewhere (like Phoenix) that didn’t exist before. So maybe Vancouver is saturated, but the overall talent pool continues to grow elsewhere.

It’s certainly true that a small talent pool - like from a small Swedish town - can produce more NHL players than a larger one - like from a large US city. But that comes down to development practices like pro/youth integration. In any given city, the development practices should remain constant with respect to population size until resources are exhausted. Considering how resource intensive (and expensive) hockey is, that may happen rather quickly in many places. I don’t think it has happened globally yet, but perhaps it will.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Hockey is shrinking in popularity across the country.

Every boy in my dad's elementary school played hockey. About 40% of the boys in my elementary school played hockey. There's only one kid in my nephew's class of 30 that plays hockey. Compared to about 15 in basketball.

At the same time, basketball and soccer have exploded in popularity in the country. Baseball and football have made steady gains. Cricket went from non existent to a major sport.

Four Canadians were selected in the 2022 NBA draft. That's 10% of all Canadians drafted into the NBA ever, in one year.

It's the elephant in the room. Across the country, especially in major centres, basketball is replacing hockey as the first sport of young boys.

That's not getting into things like the increased prevalence of video games and other non sports activities.

Look at elementary schools across the country. It's just not a hockey culture anymore.

 

[MadLuke]

. But that comes down to development practices like pro/youth integration.

And popularity of sports and that sports relative to other sports, in that little Sweden towns, people played hockey for free on outside ice ring.

And I think that a big variable, a world where

1) most boys play hockey for free outside
2) The best among them get seen and pick up in youth hockey league (playing against other boys like them but also against those which parents actively putted them in said league)

Will get the best naturally gifted at hockey in the league.

In Quebec at least, I can imagine that model, the one were Maurice Richard that skated on frozen lake-river-small backyard ring with no organised hockey before turning 14 his completely death and it is more a competition among kids that have very involved parents and started to play organized hockey (that got quite complicated) young. It could be something about rural becoming a retirement, but even when the condition are perfect, outside ice hockey ring do not seem to be nearly has popular than even my youth, let alone the glory days of the Canadians.

After that you have the general popularity of organized sport that arguably declined recently and how much football-mma-soccer-basketball-others attract athlete versus hockey, Canada just beat the US in the world championship.

 

[filinski77]

I'm sorry to nitpick like this...but anyone that doesn't fall head over heels in love with Ovechkin is called some sort of "-ist" and is exhibiting some sort of "-ism" (which we all know is how mature people communicate effectively)...but this framing, this is objective...?

I don't think picking out specific quotes that were used to discuss different things is a great way to nitpick it apart.

I was simply providing a brief summary that showed how similar their OG performances were (since people generally talk down Ovi's OG, and talk up Crosby's).

If you'd like to actually comment on a specific assertion I made and discuss that - I'd be more willing to do that - but as of right now you have provided nothing to say why any of my points are wrong (or why you disagree with them).

 

[Victorias]

Hockey is shrinking in popularity across the country.

Every boy in my dad's elementary school played hockey. About 40% of the boys in my elementary school played hockey. There's only one kid in my nephew's class of 30 that plays hockey. Compared to about 15 in basketball.

At the same time, basketball and soccer have exploded in popularity in the country. Baseball and football have made steady gains. Cricket went from non existent to a major sport.

Four Canadians were selected in the 2022 NBA draft. That's 10% of all Canadians drafted into the NBA ever, in one year.

It's the elephant in the room. Across the country, especially in major centres, basketball is replacing hockey as the first sport of young boys.

That's not getting into things like the increased prevalence of video games and other non sports activities.

Look at elementary schools across the country. It's just not a hockey culture anymore.

It’s possible that interest in hockey in Canada already peaked, but that would be when - like players born in 60s? I’ve seen arguments on here that global pro hockey talent overall peaked in the 90s and I think that’s reasonable. However, it did not peak in the 06 era.

Basketball is obviously more accessible but there’s a hard limit on the pro talent pool (height). Soccer will only continue to grow with the 2026 World Cup, Canadian Premier League, additional MLS teams, etc and is much more diverse.

 

[jigglysquishy]

It’s possible that interest in hockey in Canada already peaked, but that would be when - like players born in 60s? I’ve seen arguments on here that global pro hockey talent overall peaked in the 90s and I think that’s reasonable. However, it did not peak in the 06 era.

Basketball is obviously more accessible but there’s a hard limit on the pro talent pool (height). Soccer will only continue to grow with the 2026 World Cup, Canadian Premier League, additional MLS teams, etc and is much more diverse.

Yes I think the general consensus is it peaked in Canada for those born in the early 60s. Very high household incomes. Largest demographic of 0-15 year olds ever. Hockey on TV. Limited access to other sports. In Regina, for example, we built more hockey rinks in 1950-1965 than we did 1965-2023 combined.

Basketball does have a height limit. But it still pulls talent away from hockey. One of my buddies dedicated his life to basketball age 5-17. At 6'1 he never stood a chance and didn't make it. But he also never played hockey after age 7. With his crazy raw athleticism and rich and dedicated parents, maybe he could have done something in hockey if he wasn't so in love with basketball.

 

[Victorias]

Yeah, but this entire discussion has been one that isn't worthy of this forum. Too many fans who can't see past their own fandom. It is, to argue my own point, entirely too early to be discussing this player's legacy or where he falls on top-25 lists.

Who exactly is a fan not able to see past their fandom?

Ovi is my one of my least favorite NHLers (because of his allegiance to Putin), but here I am advocating for him.

He is also past his prime on a non-contender so nothing he does going forward will affect his legacy apart from the goals record (which we are assuming he will set). It’s not like discussing McDavid with various hypotheticals.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I don't think picking out specific quotes that were used to discuss different things is a great way to nitpick it apart.

I was simply providing a brief summary that showed how similar their OG performances were (since people generally talk down Ovi's OG, and talk up Crosby's).

If you'd like to actually comment on a specific assertion I made and discuss that - I'd be more willing to do that - but as of right now you have provided nothing to say why any of my points are wrong (or why you disagree with them).

Yeah, that's the definition nitpick, all right haha

I don't want to discuss post because it's not a productive area of discussion and has already been roundly discounted, on merit. I was exposing the overtones of bias and xenophobia and other nonsense shoved into the mouths of people who don't put Ovechkin on the highest pedestal. Because your post, which insinuated that Alexander Ovechkin - a man known for his lack of backchecking (you can't say "one-way" because MJ will come along and say that because they switch ends of the rink after each period, that this is a falsehood) - played well while getting 0 points, taking two penalties, and was among the team worst at minus-3.

That's not bias, that's not anything "-ism", that's just the straight facts...good tournament. Crosby is one off the Team Canada lead in points in a winning effort. But because a HOF d-man was within one point of him on a scale of 8 or whatever...that's a little hinky.

In 2011, Ovechkin was outscored by the goalie (probably)...that's a fine effort from him though.

2014 Olympics...Ovechkin needs an opportunity to succeed. He had none. None. He couldn't possibly make it himself. At home. So, he was limited to scoring a single goal...against Slovenia. That's probably because the 1955 Montreal Canadiens were allowed to blah blah blah blah blah...nothing he did.

Look, I don't need to go down the road of the post. No one is going to be hoodwinked into believing Ovechkin was a good international player. I'm just pointing out that maybe both sides might have a tinge of bias...maybe...

 

[Midnight Judges]

Some of you are in complete denial about the talent pool.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Some of us think that they came to an acceptable answer...

 

[MadLuke]

Some of you are in complete denial about the talent pool.

Possibly, but I feel it goes both ways.

The city of Örnsköldsvik does not have 35,000 inhabitant, in recent years it produced nhler like
Forsberg, Naslund, Sundstrom, Olofsson, Hedman, H.Sedin, D.Sedin, Enstrom,

Did Canada produce 1,000 times that high-end talent, because it has 1000 time the population ? Obviously not there was 1000 Canadian Sedin/Hedman in the last 30 years.

Is it impossible that the Canadian society in a certain time of the past was closer to Örnsköldsvik than it was the last 25 years ? Just imagine a country with 25 small city like Örnsköldsvik and it is more than enough to win easily the olympics gold. A country of 2 millions can be much better at hockey than one of 100 millions, that single city could maybe beat Brazil and compete with new actual place like France-England-Germany-new part of the US.

Talent pool is almost impossible to access in any good way and youth population size a terrible proxy, would we have nice numbers on organized hockey it could be better (to compare between era where all the pipeline came from it) but still imperfect.

I would propose vast humility toward that question, specially if we talk worldwide level approximation

 

[Bear of Bad News]

You did pick an outlier in Örnsköldsvik. I bet there's a Scandinavian town of ~35,000 people who's never produced an NHLer, which would make your "Did Canada produce..." question an easy yes.

Outliers lead to weird results.

 

[MeHateHe]

Outliers lead to weird results.

So you're saying that because the town of Viking, Alberta, (population 1,083) produced 6 NHLers**, we shouldn't expect greater Vancouver (population, roughly 2.5 million) to have produced 15,000 NHLers**?

**All of whom are brothers.

 

[sr edler]

Örnsköldsvik isn't really an outlier in the sense that the town already had a very established SEL club and had seen successful players channel to NA prior, in the 1970s/1980s, such as Anders Hedberg, Lars Molin and Bosse Berglund, and perhaps some nearby talent I'm forgetting about.

My point here is it wasn't a junkyard tornado scenario. It's not like Karlskrona or Visby all of a sudden produced multiple Art Ross calibre players.

As Peter Stastny would say, the answer is synergies.

 

[MadLuke]

You did pick an outlier in Örnsköldsvik. I bet there's a Scandinavian town of ~35,000 people who's never produced an NHLer, which would make your "Did Canada produce..." question an easy yes.

Outliers lead to weird results.

Obviously, but there could be a list of reason between the result between those 2 city, an history of nhl stars coming from it, a legendary hockey club that play there, colder and more months-place to play hockey outdoor and that example is over a bit of time, Forsberg-Naslund, Sedins, Hedman a bit of a pattern.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Obviously, but there could be a list of reason between the result between those 2 city, an history of nhl stars coming from it, a legendary hockey club that play there, colder and more months-place to play hockey outdoor and that example is over a bit of time, Forsberg-Naslund, Sedins, Hedman a bit of a pattern.

Yes, outliers typically have reasons for their outlier-ness.

 

[MadLuke]

Yes, outliers typically have reasons for their outlier-ness.

Yes, maybe my point wasn't clear, the point being that it is possible that at some point in the past Canadian society was closer than those reason than at other times. Making it really hard to use any metric of the type population size to evaluate talent pool, if those variable change over time.

Or maybe you did understood and I do not understand what you were pointing out ?

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Yes, maybe my point wasn't clear, the point being that it is possible that at some point in the past Canadian society was closer than those reason than at other times. Making it really hard to use any metric of the type population size to evaluate talent pool, if those variable change over time.

Or maybe you did understood and I do not understand what you were pointing out ?

I think I understood. If I did understand, then I suppose my focus is on "it's not fair to blow up a small sample outlier to a size representative of Canada" and then make apples-to-apples comparisons of "why".

If it appears that I didn't understand, please connect the dots for me (I have three kids 6yo and younger and I'm just so damn tired).

 

[MadLuke]

I think I understood. If I did understand, then I suppose my focus is on "it's not fair to blow up a small sample outlier to a size representative of Canada".

Yes same would go for the whole Canada to do produce 17 time more high end talent than next 5 years than Montreal did between 60 and 65, if we are to say that level of ideal conditions (from cultural complete capture of the sport has with the Canadian in the 70s, among of kids of similar age in a small region) are not to be expected from a giant territory in a much richer in activity-silo cultural, shorter winter, etc... world.

Or soviet Russia versus some other moment in Russia history and so on.

 

[sr edler]

I think Örnis is probably the perfect size, and had the perfect circumstances at the time, for such a thing to happen. Not only did they have MoDo, but also a hockey gymnasium. But if the town/city is too big, there's always a risk for outside distractions. I'm from the biggest city in Sweden and most people here don't care about hockey, it's a football/soccer town predominantly, and then there's many other things as well for people to do.

And it's not even like Örnis is super small, 30K is pretty nice. There are way smaller towns here who's had very strong hockey culture going on, most notably Leksand with a 5K population, they were a power house in Swedish hockey in the mid 1970s and still produces occasional NHL players to this day such as Filip Forsberg and Victor Rask.

 

[wetcoast]

I think this is a bit of a different situation than in the article. We’re not looking at an untapped skill in some location (eg literary talent in Topeka) but rather a skill with extremely high rewards (hockey talent) in that one city over time. eg baseball talent in Topeka 50 years ago vs today

Let’s take Vancouver. As Vancouver’s hockey playing population increases, so does the talent pool since the incentives are only increasing. However, there are bottlenecks - as vadim pointed out - such as number of rinks. At the same time, rinks have been built elsewhere (like Phoenix) that didn’t exist before. So maybe Vancouver is saturated, but the overall talent pool continues to grow elsewhere.

It’s certainly true that a small talent pool - like from a small Swedish town - can produce more NHL players than a larger one - like from a large US city. But that comes down to development practices like pro/youth integration. In any given city, the development practices should remain constant with respect to population size until resources are exhausted. Considering how resource intensive (and expensive) hockey is, that may happen rather quickly in many places. I don’t think it has happened globally yet, but perhaps it will.

I live in Vancouver and the big difference between this town and say Toronto is the frozen winters where everyone can skate more readily.

Vancouver and BC has begun to produce better talent with expansion in the 70s and then more recently with elite hockey schools (much like how the soviets came to dominance over a relatively short period of time).

The whole comparison of any player over time is fraught with extreme nuance and in the end personal bias is what comes out as there is literally no good way to make accurate comparisons just WAG (wild ass guesses) and a ton of noise.

 

[sr edler]

The worst talent pool argument ever is simply looking at an increased population number. This does not matter unless these extra people actually play hockey.

When it comes to Canada, from what I understand they've seen a pretty sizeable influx of people the last decade(s) or so from parts of the world where football/soccer is huge. And look, they made the last World Cup, for the first time since the roaring 80s. Obviously not a coincidence.

The biggest thing with making hockey more popular is making it more accessible and affordable, there's really nothing else to it. But instead we have an endless whiny obsession over contracts and cap space, and how many millions some brat is gonna earn on his next deal.

 

[Overrated]

Hockey is shrinking in popularity across the country.

Every boy in my dad's elementary school played hockey. About 40% of the boys in my elementary school played hockey. There's only one kid in my nephew's class of 30 that plays hockey. Compared to about 15 in basketball.

At the same time, basketball and soccer have exploded in popularity in the country. Baseball and football have made steady gains. Cricket went from non existent to a major sport.

Four Canadians were selected in the 2022 NBA draft. That's 10% of all Canadians drafted into the NBA ever, in one year.

It's the elephant in the room. Across the country, especially in major centres, basketball is replacing hockey as the first sport of young boys.

That's not getting into things like the increased prevalence of video games and other non sports activities.

Look at elementary schools across the country. It's just not a hockey culture anymore.

Crazy stuff. It's obvious to me the skill level of the NHL is decreasing year by year. I'd go as far as to say it's happening to other sports as well. Competitive video games are a huge competitor to sports especially knowing how much time parents have to sacrifice bringing their kids up playing sports.

 

[wetcoast]

Crazy stuff. It's obvious to me the skill level of the NHL is decreasing year by year. I'd go as far as to say it's happening to other sports as well. Competitive video games are a huge competitor to sports especially knowing how much time parents have to sacrifice bringing their kids up playing sports.

Ask most NHL players from 80s who watch todays game and they will laugh at this, skill isn't decreasing year by year there simply isn't any evidence of this.

 

[VanIslander]

I was cut at age 11. Yet i skate as well as - and outcheck - the training camp guys for the South Korean national team (some starts and coach Esa Tikkanen weren't on the ice... 06? ... you see, i had some success captaining a winning "rollerblade"/inline skate team in Seoul (i can't believe i used to afford weekend flights for weeks on end). I have linked myself playing... though never again, hope y'all forgot given crime ..

OV said Esa is the next Neely.
Outside the top-100 all time?
I dunno about that. He has impressed more.
But if you can't name five better right wingers, you ain't trying.

Howe. Richard. Lafleur. Makarov. ...

Er,... maybe top 5?

Bossy was injury prone like Orr and Mario.
Early era Cook & even Bathgate are underappreciated due to the NYR.

It would be hard - yet interesting - if anyone tried to argue Ovechkin ain't a top-10 right winger ever. (Turn injuries off with Neely, Palffy, forget play away from the puck with Kurri)