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Where do the Leafs go if they blow it yet again?

coooldude said:
I don't really have a dog in this fight, but people absolutely talked ad nauseam about Yzerman being unable to win it, didn't play the right way, didn't have the heart, wasn't the right leader... I know this because it was the Sharks that beat them in 7 in 1994 and led to a year of "these guys don't have it"... Until they did.

And exact same for Ovie. There was, absolutely, a ton of criticism of Ovie as an empty calories player who couldn't drive a team to post season success even if he got his points. Year after year losing in the second round to PIT etc... until they won. I remember it well because they were "the Sharks of the East" while the Sharks core was getting flamed just like the current TOR core for being unable to get it done, and they never did, and that will forever mark Thornton and Marleau's careers... And Karlsson, Burns. Somehow Pavelski escapes the criticism because he wasn't the top player and he always played his heart out.

I am not at all saying this is true or would be true of the core 4 - that they're winners who just haven't won yet - but facts are that a huge amount of public discourse was spent on Yzerman and Ovie re whether they could ever win, until they did. Here's Yzerman receipts from 1998. Here's one about Ovie.

Same will be true of the next ones, too. Michkov, Celebrini, Demidov, Bedard, the insane talent on the Ducks. "They can't get it done" until they do.
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Conflating two different things.

There was talk that Yzerman wasn't the kind of player you build around. They went on a great run in 1988 with Yzerman largely sidelined (with an incredible Bob Probert performance setting what was at the time, a Red Wings playoff record for points) but there was never discussion that Yzerman "vanished" or didn't show up for big games.

With Yzerman, there was a ton of criticism about his defensive play in the pre-Scotty Bowman years and it was largely deserved. But, as I pointed out, Yzerman was putting up points and wasn't disappearing when it mattered the most.

In terms of Ovehckin, I think you are grossly exaggerating the rhetoric around him. I don't recall anyone suggesting that he wasn't a good playoff performer, there as merely talk that he hadn't won the Cup and any comparisons to Sidney Crosby - which were common - would have that as the big difference maker. And, of course, there was the usual casual bigotry that surrounds any successful European player where the usual suspects want to pretend they don't play "playoff hockey" and they don't the passion for the Cup and all that nonsense.

I don't even get the comparison to Matthews though. Yzerman and Ovechkin are only "playoff failures" on the level of Matthews if you want to pretend that playoff success is wining the Cup and playoff failure is anything but winning the Cup.

Matthews is 27 and has won 2 playoff rounds. Ovechkin won six rounds before he even started the playoff where the Caps won the Cup. Yzerman had won 10 playoff rounds before the spring the Wings won their first Cup with him. This is silly, this isn't a legitimate comparison at all.
 
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FerrisRox said:
Conflating two different things.

There was talk that Yzerman wasn't the kind of player you build around. They went on a great run in 1988 with Yzerman largely sidelined (with an incredible Bob Probert performance setting what was at the time, a Red Wings playoff record for points) but there was never discussion that Yzerman "vanished" or didn't show up for big games.

With Yzerman, there was a ton of criticism about his defensive play in the pre-Scotty Bowman years and it was largely deserved. But, as I pointed out, Yzerman was putting up points and wasn't disappearing when it mattered the most.

In terms of Ovehckin, I think you are grossly exaggerating the rhetoric around him. I don't recall anyone suggesting that he wasn't a good playoff performer, there as merely talk that he hadn't won the Cup and any comparisons to Sidney Crosby - which were common - would have that as the big difference maker. And, of course, there was the usual casual bigotry that surrounds any successful European player where the usual suspects want to pretend they don't play "playoff hockey" and they don't the passion for the Cup and all that nonsense.

I don't even get the comparison to Matthews though. Yzerman and Ovechkin are only "playoff failures" on the level of Matthews if you want to pretend that playoff success is wining the Cup and playoff failure is anything but winning the Cup.

Matthews is 27 and has won 2 playoff rounds. Ovechkin won six rounds before he even started the playoff where the Caps won the Cup. Yzerman had won 10 playoff rounds before the spring the Wings won their first Cup with him. This is silly, this isn't a legitimate comparison at all.
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I didn't make the parallel, I'm just responding to the claim that Yzerman and Ovie didn't receive criticism for their playoff performances. They did. Don't believe me, read the articles I cited.
 
FerrisRox said:
Conflating two different things.

There was talk that Yzerman wasn't the kind of player you build around. They went on a great run in 1988 with Yzerman largely sidelined (with an incredible Bob Probert performance setting what was at the time, a Red Wings playoff record for points) but there was never discussion that Yzerman "vanished" or didn't show up for big games.

With Yzerman, there was a ton of criticism about his defensive play in the pre-Scotty Bowman years and it was largely deserved. But, as I pointed out, Yzerman was putting up points and wasn't disappearing when it mattered the most.

In terms of Ovehckin, I think you are grossly exaggerating the rhetoric around him. I don't recall anyone suggesting that he wasn't a good playoff performer, there as merely talk that he hadn't won the Cup and any comparisons to Sidney Crosby - which were common - would have that as the big difference maker. And, of course, there was the usual casual bigotry that surrounds any successful European player where the usual suspects want to pretend they don't play "playoff hockey" and they don't the passion for the Cup and all that nonsense.

I don't even get the comparison to Matthews though. Yzerman and Ovechkin are only "playoff failures" on the level of Matthews if you want to pretend that playoff success is wining the Cup and playoff failure is anything but winning the Cup.

Matthews is 27 and has won 2 playoff rounds. Ovechkin won six rounds before he even started the playoff where the Caps won the Cup. Yzerman had won 10 playoff rounds before the spring the Wings won their first Cup with him. This is silly, this isn't a legitimate comparison at all.
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Spot on.

This idea that Matthews is in the same boat as the likes of Ovechkin and Yzerman, two guys who didn't win a Cup until later in their careers, is bogus. The criticism about Matthews isn't just because he hasn't won a Cup, it's because he never has a strong playoff showing, period.

Look at McDavid last playoffs. He didn't win the Cup, but nobody (in their right mind) would make a thread about McDavid like this one. Because HE ACTUALLY PRODUCED. He did his part.

Matthews is getting criticism because HE never translates his regular season production to playoff production. HE is a big reason for the Leafs' playoff struggles because he never plays like a top 5 player in the playoffs.
 
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dangomon said:
They did not.
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according to several reports, the Toronto Maple Leafs did attempt to trade Mitch Marner, but he blocked the trade by invoking his no-movement clause. The Leafs were reportedly seeking to acquire Mikko Rantanen from the Carolina Hurricanes, and Marner was part of the trade proposal.
 
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Marner probably walks. Tavares is gone unless he takes a huge paycut. They'll likely get a big UFA to come in.

One thing they should also do is be more transparent on Matthews' injury. I get they don't want to put a target on that area but they aren't doing anyone any favours by being so secretive. There needs to be a little more information available to the public so they can understand what he's dealing with.
 
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