When will Bouchard be considered elite?

[Perfect_Drug]

Ok well if his counting stats aren't enough for you, he is currently on the top D pair in the playoffs by virtually every single advanced stat imaginable.

Defensive Pairs - Natural Stat Trick

- playoffs

If thats not enough, let's also compare his advanced stats to the best D in the NHL, Cale Makar (who plays with the likely hart winner MacKinnon, and just as strong of a team and D partner)

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

- Playoff H2H

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

- Reg Season H2H

Bouchard dominates every facet of the game, and has advanced a ridiculous amount in 1 year. Narratives are sticky and hard to break, but there isn't much more evidence anyone can provide. He is exceptional at making smart plays out of the zone, has improved D zone awareness greatly and is a major reason for the Oilers success this year. He's a top 10, if not top 5 D in the league right now, and depending how you value advanced stats he's top 3.

Stop bringing "stats" or "facts".

Nothing will shake his unwavering belief that Dmen with lots of points are horrible at defense.

He also self-admittedly missed the entire game, but woke up in time to watch Bouchards setup for the GWG, and posted about it 7 hours later.

 

[JianYang]

hope he gets 10 mil a year

He's got a good case with nurse setting the bar close to double digits already.

 

[eviohh26]

He's got a good case with nurse setting the bar close to double digits already.

Taking anything less would be a joke.

 

[AvroArrow]

Damn you actually believe this stuff don’t you. Okay. Thanks for the tips coach, hope we can start working on those flaws with your sound advice now.

The actual great thing about Bouchard is he’s already corrected his main flaws. Doesn’t compete? Gone. Bad positioning? Gone. Not a great skater? Gone. And even with any remaining minor flaws he more than makes up with his generational shooting ability and vision. You are looking at one of the Leagues best Defenceman, but your “biases” won’t let you see it. I’d look up your post history on Draisaitl and I bet you’d have had similar “biases” when he first signed his extension or maybe still do.

I don't think he's great defensively, but I think he can and most likely will improve (like I said about Hughes a couple years ago). He's elite offensively, there's no question about it. I don't know why that's something to get defensive about. He's a really good player with lots of room to still improve on, I don't see how that's a bad thing. I just wont call him an elite overall player because I think his defensive game is average. But like I said, with proper coaching I fully expect him to develop that part of his game. The guys what 24 ? He probably has another 3 years before he actually hits his prime. As of now, elite offensively, maybe in a couple years we can call him a complete elite D-man.

Sure maybe I should've been politer and not used "babysat" when talking about him, but hope you get my point.

My opinion about Draisaitl currently is, he's an elite player that benefits from playing with a generational player. Easiest way to break it down, I don't think he's on McDavid/Kuch/Mackinnon level, but rather in the Pastrnak/Matthews bracket. I don't think that's a diss, but after this years playoffs if he keeps performing how he is, I'd put him up in the top tier with the 3 other guys no question. My only point against Drai is, he scores like McDavid (generational) against poor teams in the playoffs, and puts up normal superstar type points vs the average/good teams (the kind of player I think he is, a superstar) but if you want me to put him in McDavid/Kuch category, he'll have to do it vs a good/elite team like Dallas for example. So if he continues this kind of production, yeah I'll put him up there with the 3 other guys no question.

 

[eviohh26]

I don't think he's great defensively, but I think he can and most likely will improve (like I said about Hughes a couple years ago). He's elite offensively, there's no question about it. I don't know why that's something to get defensive about. He's a really good player with lots of room to still improve on, I don't see how that's a bad thing. I just wont call him an elite overall player because I think his defensive game is average. But like I said, with proper coaching I fully expect him to develop that part of his game. The guys what 24 ? He probably has another 3 years before he actually hits his prime. As of now, elite offensively, maybe in a couple years we can call him a complete elite D-man.

Sure maybe I should've been politer and not used "babysat" when talking about him, but hope you get my point.

My opinion about Draisaitl currently is, he's an elite player that benefits from playing with a generational player. Easiest way to break it down, I don't think he's on McDavid/Kuch/Mackinnon level, but rather in the Pastrnak/Matthews bracket. I don't think that's a diss, but after this years playoffs if he keeps performing how he is, I'd put him up in the top tier with the 3 other guys no question. My only point against Drai is, he scores like McDavid (generational) against poor teams in the playoffs, and puts up normal superstar type points vs the average/good teams (the kind of player I think he is, a superstar) but if you want me to put him in McDavid/Kuch category, he'll have to do it vs a good/elite team like Dallas for example. So if he continues this kind of production, yeah I'll put him up there with the 3 other guys no question.

Dria is above Matthews and Pasta. He is even outplaying / carrying McDavid this run. Even if he is a tier below McDavid he is still way above Matthews .

 

[AvroArrow]

Dria is above Matthews and Pasta. He is even outplaying / carrying McDavid this run. Even if he is a tier below McDavid he is still way above Matthews .

Strongly disagree. I don't wanna make this about Drai or Matthews so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

I don't think he's on McDavid/Kuch/Mackinnon level, but rather in the Pastrnak/Matthews bracket. I don't think that's a diss, but after this years playoffs if he keeps performing how he is, I'd put him up in the top tier with the 3 other guys no question. My only point against Drai is, he scores like McDavid (generational) against poor teams in the playoffs, and puts up normal superstar type points vs the average/good teams (the kind of player I think he is, a superstar) but if you want me to put him in McDavid/Kuch category, he'll have to do it vs a good/elite team like Dallas for example. So if he continues this kind of production, yeah I'll put him up there with the 3 other guys no question.

We get it! You don't watch the Oilers ever.
And your demonstratable false bad takes can be fact-checked in seconds.

Draisaitl:
7 points in 6 games against Vegas.
6 points in 4 games against Colorado.

MacKinnon:
7 points in 7 games against Vegas
5 points in 4 games against Edmonton


He's actually outscoring MacKinnon in these tougher series AND head to head.
But we know you won't backtrack on the narrative you just SAID you would backtrack on once he did it.

 

[Frosty415]

Strongly disagree. I don't wanna make this about Drai or Matthews so I'll leave it at that.

Of course you disagree, you and a few of your base have been downplaying McDrai for years now, luckily many of us remember.

 

[AvroArrow]

We get it! You don't watch the Oilers ever.
And your demonstratable false bad takes can be fact-checked in seconds.

Draisaitl:
7 points in 6 games against Vegas.
6 points in 4 games against Colorado.

MacKinnon:
7 points in 7 games against Vegas
5 points in 4 games against Edmonton


He's actually outscoring MacKinnon.

6 of those points came in the first 2 games, 1 point over the last 4 games where the Oilers lost 3, including zero points in the final 2 games of the series.

Regardless like I said, it's a Bouchard thread so I'd prefer not to derail

 

[Coffey]

We get it! You don't watch the Oilers ever.
And your demonstratable false bad takes can be fact-checked in seconds.

Draisaitl:
7 points in 6 games against Vegas.
6 points in 4 games against Colorado.

MacKinnon:
7 points in 7 games against Vegas
5 points in 4 games against Edmonton


He's actually outscoring MacKinnon in these tougher series.
But we know you won't backtrack on the narrative you just SAID you would backtrack on once he did it.


You're a meme at this point dude.

It's soooo easy.

 

[AvroArrow]

Of course you disagree, you and a few of your base have been downplaying McDrai for years now, luckily many of us remember.

I've not downplayed McDavid even once, don't put words in my mouth. I have repeated over and over that he's by far the greatest player in the league. I've also mentioned that Drai is absolutely a top 10 player in the world, that's not downplaying. I just don't think hes undisputed top 3 or 5 like some of your fans do.

 

[eviohh26]

Strongly disagree. I don't wanna make this about Drai or Matthews so I'll leave it at that.

You just wrote a whole essay on it. You don't wanna go there because you know there is no comparison . Dria is like 2 tiers above Matthews .

 

[bobbythebrain]

Draisaitl on one leg proved he's been way better than Matthews in any playoff.
How's this even a debate. Drai continues to dominate playoffs, whether it's on one leg or away from McDavid.

 

[Bank Shot]

6 of those points came in the first 2 games, 1 point over the last 4 games where the Oilers lost 3, including zero points in the final 2 games of the series.

Regardless like I said, it's a Bouchard thread so I'd prefer not to derail

Is you back soar FROM MOVING GOALPOSTS?

 

[Coffey]

Is you back soar FROM MOVING GOALPOSTS?

I've never seen anyone try SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO hard to discredit another player.

This is the equivalent of someone pulling up Lemieux or Gretz records and saying "look at the defensemen on the ice on this goal. Look at the positioning of this goalie back in 1988. The coach was not implementing tactics good enough to defend." Literally every possible excuse in the book.

It's absolutely embarrassing at this point.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

6 of those points came in the first 2 games, 1 point over the last 4 games where the Oilers lost 3, including zero points in the final 2 games of the series.

Regardless like I said, it's a Bouchard thread so I'd prefer not to derail

All you do is state something wrong.
And when you're proven to be wrong, you move the goalposts.

You said Drai ONLY scores against poor teams. --- WRONG
And if he scored at the same rate as MacKinnon against elite teams, you would change your stance on him. -- YOU DID NOT.

I demonstrated he scored at a higher rate than MacKinnon against the better teams too.


And now its not a debate about scoring at a higher rate than MacKinnon. It's now an issue of the cadence in which he spreads out his scoring.

Well Guess WHAT? MacKinnon has a 3 game pointless gap against Vegas, And only 2 Assists in his last 5 games: -- YOU'RE WRONG AGAIN.

I get that you will never admit you're wrong about anything ever, even in the face of stats that can be looked up about players you never watch?

But how are you planning on moving the goalposts again?

 

[Juxta Position]

Short sample size (12 games). Mike Cammalleri had 13 goals through 2 rounds one time. Pretty sure it was some sort of record as well.

Tell me when he gets 120 pts in the regular season. Then I could agrew about the use of the word "generational"

Arn't the playoffs by definition a "short sample size" Ok then over the last 2 playoff years when bouchard was an actual regular in the lineup and not a rookie, no NHL defenseman can even touch his point totals.

Also I thought regular season means nothing and truly elite players only prove their worth in the playoffs - but playoffs are too small a sample size to show anything???....I'm confused.... Going forward, I need someone to point out to me where the goal posts are being moved beforehand, so I can prepare my argument.

 

[MardyBum]

Fwiw :

https://x.com/i/web/status/1794078471163138332

https://x.com/i/web/status/1794078629498089983

Outside of just looking really great out there the analytics have been backing it up from multiple sources.

 

[eviohh26]

Dude you guys are a very strange fan base I don't know what it is, you get triggered if people don't worship Draisaitl as if he's Malkin to McDavids Crosby. You get triggered if people point out defensively flaws in Bouchards game instead of calling an elite offensive D-man. You get triggered if people point out drop in production when playing against higher level teams. You get triggered when people mention the Oilers history of struggling vs the higher end teams in the playoffs.

Like you literally want to be worshipped otherwise people can't talk Oilers It's very weird and extremely entitled, never seen another teams fan base do this with their stars. How dare someone have an opinion about our players! How dare someone critique a players game! My players are the bestest! If you don't think so you're just a biased big meanie!

I'm far from a Oiler fan. But I call it how I see it. Trying to lump Matthews in the same tier as Dria is laughable at best. Matthews is in the JT Miller Tier.

Even if Oilers struggle vs higher end teams what does that say about Toronto and Matthews? You guys managed to beat a tired and worn down Tampa whos days of glory look like they have come to an end. That is all the big 4 has managed to do in 8 years.

Something about throwing rocks in a glass house.......

 

[AvroArrow]

All you do is state something wrong.
And when you're proven to be wrong, you move the goalposts.

You said Drai ONLY scores against poor teams. --- WRONG
And if he scored at the same rate as MacKinnon against elite teams, you would change your stance on him. -- YOU DID NOT.

I demonstrated he scored at a higher rate than MacKinnon.

And now its not a debate about scoring at a higher rate than MacKinnon. It's now an issue of the cadence in which he spreads out his scoring.

Well Guess WHAT? MacKinnon has a 3 game pointless gap against Vegas, And only 2 Assists in his last 5 games:
View attachment 875336

So how are you planning on moving the goalposts again?

Try reading again

I said Draisaitl scores at a McDavid (generational level) vs poor teams

But scores like a normal superstar vs good/elite teams

I have no idea how you misinterpreted it THAT bad, and got THIS triggered that I said he performs like a superstar vs elite teams holy shit man calm down

Definition of a strawman, just relax no need to get this triggered over misinterpreting posts

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Try reading again

I said Draisaitl scores at a McDavid (generational level) vs poor teams

But scores like a normal superstar vs good/elite teams

I have no idea how you misinterpreted it THAT bad, and got THIS triggered that I said he performs like a superstar vs elite teams holy shit man calm down

Definition of a strawman, just relax no need to get this triggered over misinterpreting posts

Counterpoint: there are no poor teams in the playoffs.

You have varying degrees of good, that's it.

 

[Juxta Position]

I don't think he's great defensively, but I think he can and most likely will improve (like I said about Hughes a couple years ago). He's elite offensively, there's no question about it. I don't know why that's something to get defensive about. He's a really good player with lots of room to still improve on, I don't see how that's a bad thing. I just wont call him an elite overall player because I think his defensive game is average. But like I said, with proper coaching I fully expect him to develop that part of his game. The guys what 24 ? He probably has another 3 years before he actually hits his prime. As of now, elite offensively, maybe in a couple years we can call him a complete elite D-man.

Sure maybe I should've been politer and not used "babysat" when talking about him, but hope you get my point.

My opinion about Draisaitl currently is, he's an elite player that benefits from playing with a generational player. Easiest way to break it down, I don't think he's on McDavid/Kuch/Mackinnon level, but rather in the Pastrnak/Matthews bracket. I don't think that's a diss, but after this years playoffs if he keeps performing how he is, I'd put him up in the top tier with the 3 other guys no question. My only point against Drai is, he scores like McDavid (generational) against poor teams in the playoffs, and puts up normal superstar type points vs the average/good teams (the kind of player I think he is, a superstar) but if you want me to put him in McDavid/Kuch category, he'll have to do it vs a good/elite team like Dallas for example. So if he continues this kind of production, yeah I'll put him up there with the 3 other guys no question.

you start both of those stements with "I don't think" and "My opinion" and both of those statements are false. And the good thing is that the stats and facts don't give two squirelly poo's what you "think" about the players.

You've shown over a long history of posting that your disdain for anything Oilers clouds any rational thought you may have regarding that team, and you are incapapble of leaving out you're biases when referring to Oilers players.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Try reading again

I said Draisaitl scores at a McDavid (generational level) vs poor teams

But scores like a normal superstar vs good/elite teams

I have no idea how you misinterpreted it THAT bad, and got THIS triggered that I said he performs like a superstar vs elite teams holy shit man calm down

Definition of a strawman, just relax no need to get this triggered over misinterpreting posts

No

You said you do not consider Draisaitl in the MacKinnon tier until he scores like MacKinnon against elite teams.

Which I proved he does.

And then you moved the goalposts by citing that it should be discredited due to scoring multiple points in a few games.
To which I demonstrated MacKinnon did the same.


And now you're trying to say I am making a strawman argument.
Which I am not.

 

[GOilers88]

So....how about that Bouchard kid?

Or am I in the Draisaitl thread?

 

[AvroArrow]

No

You said you do not consider him in the MacKinnon tier until he scores like MacKinnon against elite teams.

Which he does.

Again please go read slower before responding, or here I'll copy paste it for you again so you somehow don't misinterpret it for the 5th time

"My only point against Drai is, he scores like McDavid (generational) against poor teams in the playoffs, and puts up normal superstar type points vs the average/good teams (the kind of player I think he is, a superstar) but if you want me to put him in McDavid/Kuch category, he'll have to do it vs a good/elite team like Dallas for example. So if he continues this kind of production, yeah I'll put him up there with the 3 other guys no question."

He doesn't put up the "generational" type points vs elite teams, there's a noticeable drop off in his production as well as his teams record when facing tougher teams outside of the Pacific division. Historically there is a clear gap, I don't understand how you're triggered about this. Like I literally stated I believe he's a top 10 player in the league and can be solidified as an undisputed top 5 player in the world (alongside McDavid, Kuch, Mack) if he keeps playing how he is. And that somehow offended you this badly ? Holy crap man :|

You're literally whining and fighting because I said he produces at superstar level vs elite teams and should be in the same tier as Pastrnak/Matthews right now not McDavid/Kuch/Mackinnon unless he maintains this high level of production through the WCF.

I'm done with this man lmao, literally can't believe you're this triggered because I said he's a top 10 player with a chance to solidify himself as a top 5 player if he keeps playing like this. Have a good day bro.

So....how about that Bouchard kid?

Or am I in the Draisaitl thread?

Some of your fanbase went nuts and turned this into a Draisaitl thread, using strawmans, I'm done with this

Bouchard is a stud offensive D-man and we can call him an elite overall D-man when he rounds out his game a bit.