When will Bouchard be considered elite?

[wetcoast]

He had a great year. A single, great year. If he can keep it up going into next season and beyond than maybe he'll get some Norris votes and join the upper echelon of d-men. Right now he's top 30.

I think he will have a John Carlson type of career with some Norris finishes but never actually winning it.

He’s a better John Carlson, and Carlson was pretty damn good.

It will be very interesting to see if Bouchard can continue his trajectory of being a slightly better John Carlson for career value.

 

[Three On Zero]

I don't think you can compare what Nurse did to what Bouchard is doing.

Nurse was doing defensively what Bouchard is offensively this season. It’s a fair comparison over a single season for each. If Bouchard continues into next season, it’s not as applicable

 

[Tillain]

Nurse was doing defensively what Bouchard is offensively this season. It’s a fair comparison over a single season for each. If Bouchard continues into next season, it’s not as applicable

Nurse wasn't even close to setting any records for a dman, he just had a decent season. Bouchard is making history with his play these playoffs. That's not even mentioning his great regular season where he was over a ppg and +34 and lead most defensman in advanced stats.


Not really comparable.

 

[Three On Zero]

Nurse wasn't even close to setting any records for a dman, he just had a decent season. Bouchard is making history with his play these playoffs. Not really comparable.

Nurse also had less around him

 

[Tillain]

Nurse also had less around him

Lol really? He was paired with the dman who had the most points in the league that year(Barrie). He had McDavid and Drai, he had RNH. Hyman wasn't on the team but do you think Hyman is the key to Bouchard being better than Nurse?

 

[brentashton]

Great post.
I mean the truth is if you put him on the Sharks or Hawks he does a lot worse than if you put Makar or Heiskanen there.

Bouchard Is a good player, but he's getting overrated on these boards..

ya right.

What your suggesting is that If Bobby Orr played for the Oakland Golden Seals they would have won the Cup.

Heh, heh.

 

[Czechboy]

I'd bet Heiskanen wins a Norris sooner than later

He might, he's amazing! However, he plays for a good team and is surrounded by excellent players. So he's immediately disqualified.

Only way to know if he's really good is to trade him to a shitty team with shitty teamates. If he still gets the same totals than you know it's him and not his teammates.

And if that sounds stupid, then welcome to this thread because that is a prevailing theme. Good D are not allowed to play with good players.

 

[TheNumber4]

The analytics don’t support your point though unless you just look at straight up things like expected goals with no context. Both had really strong analytics but I haven’t seen a single site or analytics poster have Hughes lower this year when taking into account team and competition.

Sure they do. Bouchard is ahead in CF%, XGF%, and various twitter WAR models as well in the Regular season. The gap becomes larger looking at the numbers in the much more important post season. But I'm open for a counter argument, give me these metrics with context that an "analytics poster" would provide and maybe you have point.

 

[Buck Naked]

Great post.
I mean the truth is if you put him on the Sharks or Hawks he does a lot worse than if you put Makar or Heiskanen there.

Why would you say that? The numbers show that both these player's, especially Makar's, numbers fall off cliffs when you remove them from their elite linemates and have them play with the Sharks/Hawks quality players on their respective teams.

 

[sportsdynasty]

Everyone knew Darnell Nurse's season was a fluke. Oiler fans are very disappointed in management's massive overpayment of Nurse.

Bouchard is nothing like Nurse. Bouchard is going to repeat being the best D in the league again next season.

Good shot but he doesn’t really generate anything at the line and he is still prone to consistent defensive gaffs. Good season but he has a lot to improve on going forward, definitely promising though if he can put this together for some consistent times.

Let’s not forget what happened to Nurse when he looked good for a season. Turned into a top 3 worst contract in the league and currently one of the worse defenceman in the playoffs

 

[OKR]

Once he keeps playing at elite level for a extended period of time.

 

[Three On Zero]

Everyone knew Darnell Nurse's season was a fluke. Oiler fans are very disappointed in management's massive overpayment of Nurse.

Bouchard is nothing like Nurse. Bouchard is going to repeat being the best D in the league again next season.

That’s going to be hard to repeat when he wasn’t the best D in the league this year

 

[suddeninterest]

I'd bet Heiskanen wins a Norris sooner than later

Definitely an elite player. The Norris is so heavily skewed toward offence though he might need to find another level of production. Probably one of the most complete defenders in the game.

 

[Czechboy]

Fun fact for this season...

Bouch and Hughes both have 102 points on the season (Playoffs + Regular Season).

 

[Juxta Position]

If he replicates this type of performance. And improves defensively. Maybe he can reach "great" status.

Guys like Makar, Fox, Hughes, & Josi have been doing it longer. I don't see Bouchard ever being as good as these guys at their best.

Replicates an all-time performance? you realize no defenseman in history, not Bobby Orr, not Paul Coffey, not Ray Bourque, not Nick Lidstrom etc., have done what Bouchard is doing in these playoffs....and your saying he needs to do it twice? When none of these guys have done it once.

Bouchard just spent 7 games making Hughes look like Cory Cross out there.

Makar is the only active Dman who put up similar (but still worse) numbers to what Bouchard is putting up and he won a Conn Smythe for it.

And by the way, Bouchard and Eckholm have been the best DEFENSIVE pairing in the playoffs this year as well.

Some people will just never recognize an Oiler player solely because of the jersey he wears.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Once he keeps playing at elite level for a extended period of time.

In his last 100 regular season games, he has 101 points.

In his last 24 playoff games, he has 37 points.

Kid's been elite for awhile.

 

[OKR]

In his last 100 regular season games, he has 101 points.

In his last 24 playoff games, he has 37 points.

Kid's been elite for awhile.

Kid’s had a elite production for awhile*

 

[golgoXIII]

Bouchard considered Elite :

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Kid’s had a elite production for awhile*

I can throw the underlying numbers at you too, but you strike me as someone that won't care about that or would find ways to undermine them.

 

[OKR]

I can throw the underlying numbers at you too, but you strike me as someone that won't care about that or would find ways to undermine them.

LMAO, based on what? Because you have forgotten the start of the season and the seasons before that?

 

[Nico Hischier]

My eyesight tells me I’ve seen too many times where he looks completely lost playing defense to be considered elite.

I don’t know what Bouchard is. Like a modern day better Sheldon souray. He’s pretty good at generating shots and offense. I guess you could say he is elite at only offense.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

LMAO, based on what? Because you have forgotten the start of the season and the seasons before that?

He's been good, very good, and now elite in the three full seasons he's been in the league.

His 21-22 year - essentially his rookie year - he would have been the 2nd highest rookie scoring D in the league.

Last year he replicated his 21-22 year and went off in the playoffs.

He played 10 poor games to start the year this year and 70 excellent regular season ones and he's arguably been our playoff MVP so far.

You don't know what you're talking about. At all.

My eyesight tells me I’ve seen too many times where he looks completely lost playing defense to be considered elite.

I don’t know what Bouchard is. Like a modern day better Sheldon souray. He’s pretty good at generating shots and offense. I guess you could say he is elite at only offense.

The John Carlson/Al MacInnis comps are better. His defence is actually pretty damned good now and still getting better.

 

[LTIR]

My eyesight tells me I’ve seen too many times where he looks completely lost playing defense to be considered elite.

I don’t know what Bouchard is. Like a modern day better Sheldon souray. He’s pretty good at generating shots and offense. I guess you could say he is elite at only offense.

Bouchard's eyesight tells him two things!

 

[Nico Hischier]

The John Carlson/Al MacInnis comps are better. His defence is actually pretty damned good now and still getting better.

I would still view him more as a Mike green vs John Carlson. But my opinion might change and he could be a more of a complete player instead of being known for only good at offense. Him and ekholm make a great pair.


From Mike greens Wikipedia:

Known for his hard slapshot and goal-scoring offense during his ten-year tenure with the Capitals, Green put up impressive offensive statistics for a defenceman from 2007 to 2010. During this time, he earned the nickname "Game Over Green" for his propensity to score game-winning goals.

Sounds very similar to Bouchard and I feel like Mike green put up elite numbers and won some hardware but he wasn’t generally considered elite and he kind of faded away after those impressive seasons.

 

[OKR]

He's been good, very good, and now elite in the three full seasons he's been in the league.

His 21-22 year - essentially his rookie year - he would have been the 2nd highest rookie scoring D in the league.

Last year he replicated his 21-22 year and went off in the playoffs.

He played 10 poor games to start the year this year and 70 excellent regular season ones and he's arguably been our playoff MVP so far.

You don't know what you're talking about. At all.


The John Carlson/Al MacInnis comps are better. His defence is actually pretty damned good now and still getting better.

Get out of your feelings.

It’s already well established his production is good, i also specifically stated his play at this moment is elite, yet you’re crying that i don’t know what i’m talking about

”Things aren't going the way I want them to, especially defensively with the puck on my stick”- Evan Bouchard