When will Bouchard be considered elite?

[phrenssoa]

Yes the benefits are tangible.

If they play on different lines McDavid draws the best shutdown line and best defensive pairing more often then Drai would. No it doesn't meant Drai is a product of McDavid but to ignore any benefit McDavid brings is as weird...

Why is this a difficult concept?

The benefits are obvious on the power play, and they go both ways between Draisaitl and McDavid. No argument there.

At even strength though, it’s impossible to tell how much they benefit from each other, or if they would be better off apart.

As I’ve pointed out, there are pros and cons to playing with McDavid.

Why is this a difficult concept?

Your narrative is very much overblown, and it is the reason you still see comments like the one that triggered your initial response.

 

[Whoshattenkirkshoes]

As an Oiler's fan, I find this comment a bit of batshit crazy.

Don't try to argue that Hughes is better. Oilers fans won't buy it.

 

[Whoshattenkirkshoes]

You assume. Based on nothing. Much of Bouchard’s numbers playing with the Oilers core is supported by his elite shot. Something Quinn can’t touch. Not to mention the higher hockey Iq and vision.

I don’t even need to use advanced stats to make my argument. Can use traditional counting stats too. Let’s see 82 points for Bouchard in regular season versus 92 for Hughes. 10 pts in post season for Hughes with 0 goals, 20 pts for Bouchard with 5 goals. So they close in the regular season but Hughes was slightly ahead. In the post season, Bouchard smoked him and post season production should far outweigh regular season. It’s what sets apart Drai from guys like Marner, and it’s what will set apart Bouch from guys like Hughes .

How can you say Bouchard has higher IQ than Quinn Hughes.

 

[TheNumber4]

How can you say Bouchard has higher IQ than Quinn Hughes.

By realizing he can make better passes than Quinn without having to do 10 ballerina twirls before finding a pass that works.

 

[Slats432]

You assume. Based on nothing. Much of Bouchard’s numbers playing with the Oilers core is supported by his elite shot. Something Quinn can’t touch. Not to mention the higher hockey Iq and vision.

I don’t even need to use advanced stats to make my argument. Can use traditional counting stats too. Let’s see 82 points for Bouchard in regular season versus 92 for Hughes. 10 pts in post season for Hughes with 0 goals, 20 pts for Bouchard with 5 goals. So they close in the regular season but Hughes was slightly ahead. In the post season, Bouchard smoked him and post season production should far outweigh regular season. It’s what sets apart Drai from guys like Marner, and it’s what will set apart Bouch from guys like Hughes .

I don't want to tear down Bouch, he is awesome. Your comments are nonsensical and I don't support your position. And you are entrenched so there is no reason to try to reason with you.

If someone prefers Bouchard based on the 2024 playoffs to Quinn Hughes, you can make that leap. When someone says Bouchard is "CLEARLY" better than Hughes, well, I just shake my head.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Don't try to argue that Hughes is better. Oilers fans won't buy it.

Hughes can be better and Bouchard can be elite, both things can be true.

 

[TheNumber4]

I don't want to tear down Bouch he is awesome. Your comments are nonsensical and I don't support your position. And you are entrenched so there is no reason to try to reason with you.

You’ve tried to reason with me. But the stats and analytics just don’t support your counter point. So if it’s nonsensical to base my assessment on stats and eye test, then guilty as charged.

 

[Slats432]

You’ve tried to reason with me. But the stats and analytics just don’t support your counter point. So if it’s nonsensical to base my assessment on stats and eye test, then guilty as charged.

Only to disregard the quality of teammate might make a difference. Like I said, no shame in preferring Bouchard based on the last say 50 games. As early as this season people didn't feel confident in Bouchard's game and considered benching him. To be so confident that he is clearly better doesn't make sense.

 

[Paradise Circus]

recency bias, welcome to HFBoards

 

[LTIR]

Don't try to argue that Hughes is better. Oilers fans won't buy it.

Better at what?
Shot? Stretch passes? Mobility? Physical? Defensive awareness? Reliability?

Both are better than the other at something. It doesn't even matter. Both are great for what their team needs

 

[TheNumber4]

Only to disregard the quality of teammate might make a difference. Like I said, no shame in preferring Bouchard based on the last say 50 games. As early as this season people didn't feel confident in Bouchard's game and considered benching him. To be so confident that he is clearly better doesn't make sense.

Same argument was used to excuse Draisaitl’s play for years. Of course quality of teammates has an effect, but McDavid isn’t slapping goals in for Bouchard. Watching the games you can differentiate individual and team driven impacts. Yes earlier this season, I couldn’t have made this argument. But things change. And I like to get ahead of the curve.

 

[suddeninterest]

I think Hughes and Makar will be the perennial favorites for a long time however I think Bouchard will have his shots at the Norris if everything goes right. Will likely take Hughes and Makar having "average" years. Nobody would have said that at the beginning of the year. He has really made some huge improvements this year. Is/will be getting more attention from the media/award voters now too. Hopefully can continue his play from December until now. Slower development curve than the other top guys around his draft year. Hopefully he's on the Hedman trajectory. If he plays all next season like he has since Christmas, he absolutely is in the conversation as a top 5 D in the league.

 

[HugginThePost]

My only real issue with him is he has the same stupid, stoned look on his face that Eberle had.

 

[Roksta]

The thing with Bouchard is he's not as flashy as the Hughes, Makar, Dahlin etc but he's just very potent offensively and it works for the Oilers

Also is defensive "shortcomings" are way overblown

 

[Three On Zero]

I think Hughes and Makar will be the perennial favorites for a long time however I think Bouchard will have his shots at the Norris if everything goes right. Will likely take Hughes and Makar having "average" years. Nobody would have said that at the beginning of the year. He has really made some huge improvements this year. Is/will be getting more attention from the media/award voters now too. Hopefully can continue his play from December until now. Slower development curve than the other top guys around his draft year. Hopefully he's on the Hedman trajectory. If he plays all next season like he has since Christmas, he absolutely is in the conversation as a top 5 D in the league.

His biggest issue is he doesn’t really generate much, he’s a benefactor of being in the perfect situation. Plays beside a true #1 and has McDavid in front of him. He likely won’t get recognition until he can show more with less around him

 

[Regal]

You’ve tried to reason with me. But the stats and analytics just don’t support your counter point. So if it’s nonsensical to base my assessment on stats and eye test, then guilty as charged.

The analytics don’t support your point though unless you just look at straight up things like expected goals with no context. Both had really strong analytics but I haven’t seen a single site or analytics poster have Hughes lower this year when taking into account team and competition.

 

[Czechboy]

His biggest issue is he doesn’t really generate much, he’s a benefactor of being in the perfect situation. Plays beside a true #1 and has McDavid in front of him. He likely won’t get recognition until he can show more with less around him

Who'd he have around him in the OHL when he won Dman of the year and led the league in d points?

Who'd he have around him in AHL when he was a top Dman there and made the all Star team?

Who'd he have around him when he was in Sweden during covid where he was also successful.

He didn't get drafted in the top 10 because he was being carried by others.

As far as getting good players and surrounding them with good players.. great f***en strategy!

 

[Czechboy]

Just catching up here... Now we are talking is he better than Makar and winning a Norris. No. But if all that is left is that he's not better than Makar, Josi and Hughes than he is keeping great company.

 

[Whoshattenkirkshoes]

I think Hughes and Makar will be the perennial favorites for a long time however I think Bouchard will have his shots at the Norris if everything goes right. Will likely take Hughes and Makar having "average" years. Nobody would have said that at the beginning of the year. He has really made some huge improvements this year. Is/will be getting more attention from the media/award voters now too. Hopefully can continue his play from December until now. Slower development curve than the other top guys around his draft year. Hopefully he's on the Hedman trajectory. If he plays all next season like he has since Christmas, he absolutely is in the conversation as a top 5 D in the league.

I'd bet Heiskanen wins a Norris sooner than later

 

[Rabid Ranger]

He had a great year. A single, great year. If he can keep it up going into next season and beyond than maybe he'll get some Norris votes and join the upper echelon of d-men. Right now he's top 30.

 

[Whoshattenkirkshoes]

His biggest issue is he doesn’t really generate much, he’s a benefactor of being in the perfect situation. Plays beside a true #1 and has McDavid in front of him. He likely won’t get recognition until he can show more with less around him

Great post.
I mean the truth is if you put him on the Sharks or Hawks he does a lot worse than if you put Makar or Heiskanen there.

Bouchard Is a good player, but he's getting overrated on these boards.

 

[Three On Zero]

Great post.
I mean the truth is if you put him on the Sharks or Hawks he does a lot worse than if you put Makar or Heiskanen there.

Bouchard Is a good player, but he's getting overrated on these boards.

Good shot but he doesn’t really generate anything at the line and he is still prone to consistent defensive gaffs. Good season but he has a lot to improve on going forward, definitely promising though if he can put this together for some consistent times.

Let’s not forget what happened to Nurse when he looked good for a season. Turned into a top 3 worst contract in the league and currently one of the worse defenceman in the playoffs

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Great post.
I mean the truth is if you put him on the Sharks or Hawks he does a lot worse than if you put Makar or Heiskanen there.

Bouchard Is a good player, but he's getting overrated on these boards.

You mean the Oilers board.

 

[Soundwave]

Good shot but he doesn’t really generate anything at the line and he is still prone to consistent defensive gaffs. Good season but he has a lot to improve on going forward, definitely promising though if he can put this together for some consistent times.

Let’s not forget what happened to Nurse when he looked good for a season. Turned into a top 3 worst contract in the league and currently one of the worse defenceman in the playoffs

Bouchard was the best player in the Edm-Vancouver series and has one of the highest PPG for a defenseman in their first 3 playoffs ever.

Darnell Nurse ... had a nice bubble season in the Canadian division.

I don't think they're comparable.

 

[Tillain]

Good shot but he doesn’t really generate anything at the line and he is still prone to consistent defensive gaffs. Good season but he has a lot to improve on going forward, definitely promising though if he can put this together for some consistent times.

Let’s not forget what happened to Nurse when he looked good for a season. Turned into a top 3 worst contract in the league and currently one of the worse defenceman in the playoffs

I don't think you can compare what Nurse did to what Bouchard is doing.