When does the Yzerplan start getting criticized?

[Maple Leaf]

As long as Detroid is on the outside looking in I am happy with the yzerplan

 

[WarriorofTime]

You still are not getting what I'm saying. I'm not saying any of the Detroit guys are projected to be good or that our draft projects as good. I never even said that the drafts were good. I just said they weren't "bad". I also never said the Detroit guys are number 11 through whatever.

If every single one of the Detroit players beyond the 1st round in 2019/2020 bust and never make the NHL, the only way that's considered a "bad" draft is if many impact players could have been picked instead. Again, if your threshold is "NHL player", then I agree with you - if none of our guys make the NHL and there are 20-30 guys that played 100-200 games, even if at the 4th liner level, then yes, that's a failed draft.

But if your threshold is "impact player" - i.e. a player that actually changes the course of the rebuild in any meaningful way - then the argument is different. If there are only 10-15 "impact players" beyond the first round (i.e. top 6 or top 4) between the 2019/2020 drafts, then I don't see how you can say that Yzerman has been drafting poorly. He just drafted "average". He did well with the 1st round picks, and couldn't hit the 10-15/350 home runs. You can certainly say the drafts were not "great". But I don't seeh ow you can see they were 'bad' just because they didn't get one of the 15 players that the vast, vast majority of teams also failed to get.

I think my original point was I don't see any Homeruns, and it's starting to look questionable if there are any Doubles, and a few Singles by now would be nice...

As I've said, a couple Homeruns outside the 1st round are a must long-term. The timing of that assessment is loose and floating, however we should have a pretty solid idea once a player is on 2nd contract/post-waiver exempt years, while some players will blow up after that once they've rode the waiver bus a bit, it's usually the case they're on their 2nd or 3rd team by then... and we don't go from "no determination" to "ready to make a determination" overnight, as it's a pretty evolving process after year post-draft. Ages 22/23 are a good time to say it's reasonable to be both on a roster and a meaningful contributor (some, high picks in particular, are able to get there quicker, the ones that don't and become high impact players are more exceptions to the rule), while continuing to grow/get better.

 

[PettersonHughes]

I thought my fanbase was critical lol, you go from a sub-50 point team, to jumps in point totals over the past 3 years of around 10+ per season, and this year you just missed the playoffs... and y'all are ready to rag on the team? You've probably got one of the brightest futures in the league with kids on the cusp of stepping in, and this is after an era where y'all were signing past-their-prime plugs to take up roster spots. Didn't you guys just miss since you had the same amount of points as the Caps but got eliminated due to a tiebreaker? Next season the Caps probably fall out while you guys probably take another step with a further influx of kids, so just take a breath, y'all should be in good shape.

 

[SantosHalper]

As long as Detroid is on the outside looking in I am happy with the yzerplan

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

As long as Detroid is on the outside looking in I am happy with the yzerplan

These are the things you have to seek joy in when your team is the best it's been in 30 years and has one more playoff series win than Detroit in the last 8 years... And Detroit hasn't made the playoffs in that time.

 

[Realgud]

I thought my fanbase was critical lol, you go from a sub-50 point team, to jumps in point totals over the past 3 years of around 10+ per season, and this year you just missed the playoffs... and y'all are ready to rag on the team? You've probably got one of the brightest futures in the league with kids on the cusp of stepping in, and this is after an era where y'all were signing past-their-prime plugs to take up roster spots. Didn't you guys just miss since you had the same amount of points as the Caps but got eliminated due to a tiebreaker? Next season the Caps probably fall out while you guys probably take another step with a further influx of kids, so just take a breath, y'all should be in good shape.

You would notice that it is mostly non-wings fans who think the yzerplan is a major failure. Most wings fans are absolutely fine with where the team is at, but with some rational criticism that any true hockey enjoyer should be able to have. For wings fans, it is mostly around the contracts given to subpar vets.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

You would notice that it is mostly non-wings fans who think the yzerplan is a major failure. Most wings fans are absolutely fine with where the team is at, but with some rational criticism that any true hockey enjoyer should be able to have. For wings fans, it is mostly around the contracts given to subpar vets.

The contracts don't even bother me considering it's pretty much Yzerman signing plugs to keep the guys competitive and out of the "Loser mindset" hole that certain other rebuilding teams seem to have fallen into.

 

[Realgud]

The contracts don't even bother me considering it's pretty much Yzerman signing plugs to keep the guys competitive and out of the "Loser mindset" hole that certain other rebuilding teams seem to have fallen into.

Agreed, and I don't think any of these contracts are catastrophic by any means but they COULD end up blocking a potential extension to someone like Kane, let's say. It also depends on the contracts of Ray and Mo.

 

[RedHawkDown]

I think my original point was I don't see any Homeruns, and it's starting to look questionable if there are any Doubles, and a few Singles by now would be nice...

As I've said, a couple Homeruns outside the 1st round are a must long-term. The timing of that assessment is loose and floating, however we should have a pretty solid idea once a player is on 2nd contract/post-waiver exempt years, while some players will blow up after that once they've rode the waiver bus a bit, it's usually the case they're on their 2nd or 3rd team by then... and we don't go from "no determination" to "ready to make a determination" overnight, as it's a pretty evolving process after year post-draft. Ages 22/23 are a good time to say it's reasonable to be both on a roster and a meaningful contributor (some, high picks in particular, are able to get there quicker, the ones that don't and become high impact players are more exceptions to the rule), while continuing to grow/get better.

Then I agree with you. If Yzerman gets zero impact players from 2019-2024 beyond the 1st round, that is an indictment of his drafting. Over one or two years, I think it means nothing. Over half a decade and more, it matters.

I personally think the following guys are trending to be potential impact players:
Trey Augustine (2023, starting goalie potential)
Dmitri Buchelnikov (2022, top6 F potential)
Mazur (2021, top6/9 F potential, will be on the team next year hopefully)
Shai Buium (2021, top 4 potential)
Albert Johansson (2018, top 4 potential, really should have been up this year and will definitely be up next year)

If every single one of those guys busts and doesn't make it past 4th liner/ equivalent. Then I agree with you. That will have been a failure of Yzerman's drafting.

But I think it's looking good for the 2021-2023 guys.

I thought my fanbase was critical lol, you go from a sub-50 point team, to jumps in point totals over the past 3 years of around 10+ per season, and this year you just missed the playoffs... and y'all are ready to rag on the team? You've probably got one of the brightest futures in the league with kids on the cusp of stepping in, and this is after an era where y'all were signing past-their-prime plugs to take up roster spots. Didn't you guys just miss since you had the same amount of points as the Caps but got eliminated due to a tiebreaker? Next season the Caps probably fall out while you guys probably take another step with a further influx of kids, so just take a breath, y'all should be in good shape.

It's not us. It's Hawks/other teams fans.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Agreed, and I don't think any of these contracts are catastrophic by any means but they COULD end up blocking a potential extension to someone like Kane, let's say. It also depends on the contracts of Ray and Mo.

I'm guessing Kane is gonna depend entirely on if Kane wants to be here.

Holl gonna be bought out, and I don't think Fabbri would be tough to move at all.

 

[saska sault]

This thread for Wings fans

 

[TKB]

But it's not like the Wings non-1st round picks from those years project as anything more than "dime a dozen" players as you refer to it. To the extent they make the NHL at all, it will likely be in such a capacity based on everything they have all shown to date.

Every player's journey is unique... I think you may be dismissing all these other players too quickly while giving the Wings guys a much longer leash and benefit of the doubt. Many players start as depth players and earn bigger opportunities. You rarely go from AHL to 1st liner.

The indictment is no NHL players to date, nobody that projects highly. I don't see how you can look at the drafts and say they were rated highly in general, flip what you said, instead of proving a negative, prove the positive that the drafts were good.

I don't see how the Red Wings guys are number 11 through whatever. There is no basis for that.

There is no world in which the 2019 and 2020 drafts are not considered highly successful for Detroit.

You are the one who isolated to 2nd round and later for 2019 and 2020 drafts ONLY.

You write as if there are all these opportunities for greatness that Yzerman blundered by passing on somehow setting the rebuild back, but when you actually break it down, its hard to find such monumental misses.

He took Wallinder over Faber. But the Kings then passed on Faber as well, before drafting him later in the round and then traded him. the Kings are mentioned by many as one of the succeful rebuilds.

Toumisto at 35 in 2020 is a different story. But even there, you are going to be hard pressed to say a franchise changing opporutnity was missed, or that it isn't part of the hit and miss that comes with all draft picks, let alone 2nd round and later.

As as been said repeatedly, by me and others: I don't know if this all works out in the end, but for the life of me I don't understand the zeal to label the Yzerman rebuild a failure at this point.

The jury is still out and if he is successfel we won't even know for sure for another five years.

The fanbase (as a whole) is okay with that. Ownership appears to be okay with that. For some reason HF Boards is not.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

But you still haven’t answered my question? I didn’t deflect anything, I directly addressed your assertion that they drafted poorly outside the first round in those years. For that to be true, there have to be players they COULD have picked that would have made a tangible improvement to the team over the players they did pick. I listed Faber, Maccelli, and JJP. That’s three guys over hundreds of picks.

Can you name any others that would move the needle for the current Detroit team that they should have picked in 19/20? If not, I don’t get how you can say Detroit drafted poorly in those years, unless you say every single team other than LA, Arizona, and Buffalo drafted poorly in those years.

Carolina, Vegas, Vancouver, Columbus, Ottawa, Chicago also got pretty good players.

 

[WarriorofTime]

You write as if there are all these opportunities for greatness that Yzerman blundered by passing on somehow setting the rebuild back, but when you actually break it down, its hard to find such monumental misses.

There are ALWAYS opportunities to find good talent outside of the First Round. The entire history of the NHL Draft proves that. That's why you seem insistent on trying to nitpick every player to throw your hands up and say "there's like 1 or 2 good players! Faber and he got traded, so therefore there is no point to concede, presumably no one else!" which is obviously not going to prove true, but that I doubt you care to dissect super closely to go through player by player and assess where they are in their journey and where they may reasonably be likely to get to. You don't need to strawmen things I've said, like "a failure". I've said the post-1st round drafting hasn't been impressive, obviously many are too young to fully judge, the ones that aren't too young are left wanting. It just seems like some people are so stubborn towards ANY possible criticism that they won't concede what should be very basic admissions that don't completely undermine what I assume is the broader, bigger picture point (Yzerman doing a great job).

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

The whole fit being pitched over "Outside the first round" is kinda pointless anyways considering Detroit has several good prospects taken outside the 1st round...

 

[norrisnick]

I think my original point was I don't see any Homeruns, and it's starting to look questionable if there are any Doubles, and a few Singles by now would be nice...

As I've said, a couple Homeruns outside the 1st round are a must long-term. The timing of that assessment is loose and floating, however we should have a pretty solid idea once a player is on 2nd contract/post-waiver exempt years, while some players will blow up after that once they've rode the waiver bus a bit, it's usually the case they're on their 2nd or 3rd team by then... and we don't go from "no determination" to "ready to make a determination" overnight, as it's a pretty evolving process after year post-draft. Ages 22/23 are a good time to say it's reasonable to be both on a roster and a meaningful contributor (some, high picks in particular, are able to get there quicker, the ones that don't and become high impact players are more exceptions to the rule), while continuing to grow/get better.

If Holl's games were played by Tuomisto,
And Maatta's games were played by Edvinsson,
And Edvinsson's games played by Johansson does it change anything with regards to the draft?

Yzerman, to the frustration of the fan base, decided against that course of action. I'm guessing that not to be the case this coming season.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

If Holl's games were played by Tuomisto,
And Maatta's games were played by Edvinsson,
And Edvinsson's games played by Johansson does it change anything with regards to the draft?

Yzerman, to the frustration of the fan base, decided against that course of action. I'm guessing that not to be the case this coming season.

Wouldn't bet on it, honestly. Edvinsson is up, that's guaranteed. Johansson and Berggren pretty much have to "Prove they belong" or they're gone. (I'm not certain Berggren re-signs)

As for the rest, I think Yzerman literally said during the end of season presser that nobody else is ready, currently. He went on to say that that could change over the summer.

 

[TKB]

There are ALWAYS opportunities to find good talent outside of the First Round. The entire history of the NHL Draft proves that. That's why you seem insistent on trying to nitpick every player to throw your hands up and say "there's like 1 or 2 good players! Faber and he got traded, so therefore there is no point to concede, presumably no one else!" which is obviously not going to prove true, but that I doubt you care to dissect super closely to go through player by player and assess where they are in their journey and where they may reasonably be likely to get to. You don't need to strawmen things I've said, like "a failure". I've said the post-1st round drafting hasn't been impressive, obviously many are too young to fully judge, the ones that aren't too young are left wanting. It just seems like some people are so stubborn towards ANY possible criticism that they won't concede what should be very basic admissions that don't completely undermine what I assume is the broader, bigger picture point (Yzerman doing a great job).

Of course we know that talent is available in later picks rounds, for the love of god that is what the Wings are relying on if they are actually going to pull this rebuild off.

But that talent also varies greatly year to year. Throw in the fact that it still very much or hit or miss game even when you are good at finding these picks, and that you are going to have to take some big swings leading to big misses, you need to look at a bigger body of work.

But since you didn't,do that, I took a look through the drafts you did mention and was honeslty surprised to see that there was not as much there as I thought there would be in these years.

In no way do I mean that there weren't productive players picked after Yzerman misses. I am looking for impact players still available and who we drafted instead. I just don't see a pattern of big enough misses that would suggest poor drafting after round 1. I see misses that come with the territory.

Again if I am wrong I am all ears, but I think as of now our list is 4 or 5 players that would certainly be nice to have, which can't be confused with we could have had all 4 or 5 of those guys. 4 or 5 good guys available means we get to pick one. Unless the entire league passes on them as well.

 

[Ezekial]

Like what, debate in good faith, please instead of these endless "gotcha" traps and shifting goalposts that don't do anything to support a real point.

I've made plenty of posts on this thread pertaining to the topic you seem to not want to engage them.

Aljo and Ed COULD HAVE been NHLers, from our gms mouth, he decided to have them play all situation roles in GR. If they were on other teams maybe they're higher up a list of U25 defenceman by games played.

If Zach Benson was a Red Wing, he wouldn't be an nhler.
Situations are situational and your argument doesn't hold water to that.

 

[LarKing]

Nobody is more obsessed with Yzerman than fans of other teams. I'm starting to worry for some of you

 

[PettersonHughes]

It's not us. It's Hawks/other teams fans.

Lmao those fans need something better to do.

 

[Dotter]

I think my original point was I don't see any Homeruns, and it's starting to look questionable if there are any Doubles, and a few Singles by now would be nice...

As I've said, a couple Homeruns outside the 1st round are a must long-term. The timing of that assessment is loose and floating, however we should have a pretty solid idea once a player is on 2nd contract/post-waiver exempt years, while some players will blow up after that once they've rode the waiver bus a bit, it's usually the case they're on their 2nd or 3rd team by then... and we don't go from "no determination" to "ready to make a determination" overnight, as it's a pretty evolving process after year post-draft. Ages 22/23 are a good time to say it's reasonable to be both on a roster and a meaningful contributor (some, high picks in particular, are able to get there quicker, the ones that don't and become high impact players are more exceptions to the rule), while continuing to grow/get better.

I agree. You need some homeruns. Yzerman already drafted quite a few so far in his short time in Detroit. From Seider, Raymond, Edvinsson. Then it looks like Cossa, Danielsson, and ASP = that kid is going to be a stud! -- on average over one per year Yzerman has been Detroit's GM.

And who knows what else they have cooking you don't even know about. There could be some GEMS brewing ready to explode.

Then add in Yzerman's fantastic trading for young guys like Walman.

Tbh, I don't think you're being honest about your "criticism" towards Yzerman. It seems like you are sucking on sour grapes.

 

[TKB]

Then I agree with you. If Yzerman gets zero impact players from 2019-2024 beyond the 1st round, that is an indictment of his drafting. Over one or two years, I think it means nothing. Over half a decade and more, it matters.

I personally think the following guys are trending to be potential impact players:
Trey Augustine (2023, starting goalie potential)
Dmitri Buchelnikov (2022, top6 F potential)
Mazur (2021, top6/9 F potential, will be on the team next year hopefully)
Shai Buium (2021, top 4 potential)
Albert Johansson (2018, top 4 potential, really should have been up this year and will definitely be up next year)

If every single one of those guys busts and doesn't make it past 4th liner/ equivalent. Then I agree with you. That will have been a failure of Yzerman's drafting.

But I think it's looking good for the 2021-2023 guys.


It's not us. It's Hawks/other teams fans.

FTR I try not to get excited about OHL guys drafted in 2nd round until (if) we see them in GR, but I confess I am breaking my own rule on Gibson

 

[Miller Time]

I once saw an interaction on the internet with someone who didn't know the facepalm emoji.

He thought the person agreed with him and it was an emoji of someone handing him an orange due to the good point. I think of it every time someone uses it. You've made me think of it a couple times now.


For someone with some facepalm worthy takes in this thread you sure like to make a display of dismissing people's opinions.

Bad take is a bad take.

Instead of talking about me, why not keep it to talking about hockey.

Ok, so the prospect pool was RATED top 10 at that time. Let's all accept that fact for a moment. Now as you rightly say, everyone has been wrong about prospects before, and will continue to do so. Now, with hindsight, everyone and their mother can see that the Red Wings DID NOT have a top ten prospect pool. So what's the point of continuing to say that Yzerman inherited a top 10 prospect pool, and use that as a negative mark on his tenure as GM. When everyone and their mother f**king knows that WAS NOT a top 10 prospect pool. And as I'm finishing this, you may not be the poster I intended to respond to, but I'm rolling with it anyways...... Let's call it, general food for thought.

Asset.
Management.

Once you understand what that means, and how it applies to a general Manager, let's revisit, shall we?

 

[cvaicunas]

Bad take is a bad take.

Instead of talking about me, why not keep it to talking about hockey.



Asset.
Management.

Once you understand what that means, and how it applies to a general Manager, let's revisit, shall we?

We are talking about the prospect pool Yzerman was handed upon his arrival.... WHAT ASSETS? You can't flip prospects that no one wants.