When do we question Lou Lamoriello's legacy as a general manager?

[krutovsdonut]

to me he's the last of the gms trying to follow the pre-cap rules for building a winning team. he's fiercely loyal and stubborn in an era when disloyalty and flexibility wins cups. the fact he is afloat at all is a measure of how good he is at what he does.

 

[Siludin]

Islanders didn't have Barzal for a month and a half and they are one point back of the final wildcard spot, currently held by Ottawa.
If they are a decent spot at the deadline, don't put it past Lou to get aggressive, work some magic, add a forward, and suddenly make noise again in the postseason - I don't believe in the "bad Sorokin" narrative; I think their defense and goaltending is still top-10 in the league. Lou has all of his picks this year.

Regarding this offseason, if they choose not to retain Palmieri and Nelson, it opens up $11m to take care of Dobson and potentially go get a younger player, and this is before any cap increases which provide even more flexibility.

 

[Brodeur]

Couple of questions about those 3 moves.

Didn't he draft down in the 1990 1st round, giving up picks 11 and 32 for picks 20, 24 and 29? Was the point of that trade really to get Brodeur at 20, or was he simply getting another 2nd and got lucky?

At this to this post-draft THN article, Brodeur was their target when trading down. He wasn't ranked in THN's top 20, so the Devils felt safe in moving down.

And he traded Tom Kurvers at the beginning of the 89-90 season for a 1991 1st, which is what ended up being Neidermeyer. Was the point of the trade to get the 3rd OA pick in 1991, or did he again, get kind of lucky with that?

The story goes that Devils scouts told Lou in 1989 about Eric Lindros, basically telling him to get another lottery ticket for the 1991 Draft if he could.

Toronto had just picked #3 in the 1989 Draft. So it was a bit of good planning and fortuitous timing that Slava Fetisov finally was allowed to come over which gave the Devils a surplus on the blue line. I'd compare it to Pierre Lacroix working for a couple years to compile as many 1998 1sts for Vinny Lecavalier.

Niedermayer wasn't the consensus #3 pick, so the Devils scouts did well there.

And he got Stevens because the Blues wanted to sign Shanahan to a big RFA contract, which meant NJ needed to be compensated, which ended up going to an arbitrator, who ultimately awarded them Stevens (instead of St Louis's offer of CuJo, Rob Brind'Amour, and 2 conditional picks). One more time, was the intention of not paying Shanahan more to get Stevens, or did he just kind of get lucky with that?

The Group I offer sheets of that era were a bit strange. The original team did not have the right to match (Adam Graves, Petr Nedved).

There was a bit of luck since it was up to the arbitrator (who wasn't necessarily hockey savvy) and that process was chaotic which is why it didn't survive into the 1995 CBA.

I wish the article was archived, but I remember Rich Chere having a detailed retrospective when Stevens retired. He had a quote from the arbitrator indicating that he would have sided with the Blues had they offered up starting goalie Vincent Riendeau instead of CuJo (this was very early into CuJo's career). Chere did give Lou credit for successfully arguing that Stevens was the more equitable return.

Lou "lost" a different compensation hearing later that summer that went before an arbitrator. Detroit signed enforcer Troy Crowder. Perhaps feeling emboldened from the Shanahan/Stevens ruling, Lou requested Bob Probert. The arbitrator chose the Detroit offer of Dave Barr and Randy McKay; McKay would be a useful depth forward on two Cup teams.

 

[Chips]

He’s like a band that should have retired after their last classic album, when they ran out of good ideas. Totally affects his legacy.


I’m pretty sure Devils fans would say this too


He seems really intent on not rebuilding. Eternally retooling well after it’s become clear is likely to be little more than mediocre. Minimal efforts to retool, just sign whatever old guys and bad contracts and let the next GM worry about prospects.

 

[Osakahaus]

Islanders didn't have Barzal for a month and a half and they are one point back of the final wildcard spot, currently held by Ottawa.
If they are a decent spot at the deadline, don't put it past Lou to get aggressive, work some magic, add a forward, and suddenly make noise again in the postseason - I don't believe in the "bad Sorokin" narrative; I think their defense and goaltending is still top-10 in the league. Lou has all of his picks this year.

Regarding this offseason, if they choose not to retain Palmieri and Nelson, it opens up $11m to take care of Dobson and potentially go get a younger player, and this is before any cap increases which provide even more flexibility.

This will never happen because the islanders will never sign free agents

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Arbour’s second stint as a coach was mediocre

greatest upset in NHL history

 

[Sasha Orlov]

His legacy is extremely strong

You can maybe question his ability to do his current job, but his legacy is quite solidified

 

[StreetHawk]

Regarding this offseason, if they choose not to retain Palmieri and Nelson, it opens up $11m to take care of Dobson and potentially go get a younger player, and this is before any cap increases which provide even more flexibility.

Isles should also consider moving off Pageau and Lee and one of their 30 old year Dmen if they can this TDL or in the off-season. Figure with Pageau, he can help PK for a rebuilding club, so in a worst case scenario, if they truly need the cap room to do something, could aim to waive him to allow a weaker club to claim him. But, I think with 1 year left he has interest around the NHL. Just a matter of who he'd waive his MNTC to.

Really need to change the group as they are getting stale.

First time since moving into the UBS Arena that they should have some cap room to add players (assuming Nelson/Palmeri are not retained).

 

[Machinehead]

I will say this: it's impressive to hold down any job at 82.

I'm in my early 30's and I'm so tired.

 

[justHypnos]

In my opinion, it all boils down to draft luck. The most popular GMs are also the luckiest GMs: Holland in the 00s, Yzerman in the 2010s, Nill in the 20s… all can be boiled down to draft luck. Nobody likes Holland anymore, Yzerman lucking into Point/Kucherov is getting farther and farther away along with his reputation, the same will happen with Nill…

Nobody trades anymore because of the salary cap and free agents are a bad idea. That said, I think Lou and possibly McCrimmon are currently the only GMs who have proven to be able to build a consistent playoff team with strategy rather than gambling.

 

[HugeInTheShire]

Couple of questions about those 3 moves.

Didn't he draft down in the 1990 1st round, giving up picks 11 and 32 for picks 20, 24 and 29? Was the point of that trade really to get Brodeur at 20, or was he simply getting another 2nd and got lucky?

And he traded Tom Kurvers at the beginning of the 89-90 season for a 1991 1st, which is what ended up being Neidermeyer. Was the point of the trade to get the 3rd OA pick in 1991, or did he again, get kind of lucky with that?

And he got Stevens because the Blues wanted to sign Shanahan to a big RFA contract, which meant NJ needed to be compensated, which ended up going to an arbitrator, who ultimately awarded them Stevens (instead of St Louis's offer of CuJo, Rob Brind'Amour, and 2 conditional picks). One more time, was the intention of not paying Shanahan more to get Stevens, or did he just kind of get lucky with that?

Brodeur was the target all along and he knew Calgary was taking Kidd so Brodeur would still be around, this wasn't luck it was knowing what teams were thinking.

The Kurvers trade was one where he had a guy other teams wanted and he picked the team that he felt would finish lowest, again he was correct. He was aiming for Lindros but landed Niedermayer.

As for Stevens, he could have settled for the package the Blues were offering instead he fought for the player he wanted and successfully argued they should get him.

All moves have a certain level of luck to them but these 3 he knew what he was doing.

At the 1991 draft he took Niedermayer at 3 and the rumors at the time said he was trying to move up and get Forsberg but had to settle for Rolston at 11,

 

[Hisch13r]

His legacy is already more than set in stone.

 

[67 others]

I feel as if Lou Lamoriello is held up by his pedigree from the early 2000's at this point rather than what he's done lately. For a "hockey hall of famer", I feel like he's caused more damage for his teams than help. Do you agree?

Yeah, its like the MMA fighter who kept fighting after his prime.

once upon a time his record was 20-2-2,but years later its 20-12-2

 

[La Bamba]

Every GM hits a point where they should be ‘fired’, shouldn’t affect his legacy

He made the Isles a competitive team for years after JT left. They had relatively little talent but he still had them winning playoff rounds

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

View attachment 946656

At this to this post-draft THN article, Brodeur was their target when trading down. He wasn't ranked in THN's top 20, so the Devils felt safe in moving down.



The story goes that Devils scouts told Lou in 1989 about Eric Lindros, basically telling him to get another lottery ticket for the 1991 Draft if he could.

Toronto had just picked #3 in the 1989 Draft. So it was a bit of good planning and fortuitous timing that Slava Fetisov finally was allowed to come over which gave the Devils a surplus on the blue line. I'd compare it to Pierre Lacroix working for a couple years to compile as many 1998 1sts for Vinny Lecavalier.

Niedermayer wasn't the consensus #3 pick, so the Devils scouts did well there.



The Group I offer sheets of that era were a bit strange. The original team did not have the right to match (Adam Graves, Petr Nedved).

There was a bit of luck since it was up to the arbitrator (who wasn't necessarily hockey savvy) and that process was chaotic which is why it didn't survive into the 1995 CBA.

I wish the article was archived, but I remember Rich Chere having a detailed retrospective when Stevens retired. He had a quote from the arbitrator indicating that he would have sided with the Blues had they offered up starting goalie Vincent Riendeau instead of CuJo (this was very early into CuJo's career). Chere did give Lou credit for successfully arguing that Stevens was the more equitable return.

Lou "lost" a different compensation hearing later that summer that went before an arbitrator. Detroit signed enforcer Troy Crowder. Perhaps feeling emboldened from the Shanahan/Stevens ruling, Lou requested Bob Probert. The arbitrator chose the Detroit offer of Dave Barr and Randy McKay; McKay would be a useful depth forward on two Cup teams.

In that article, Lou's first sentence was literally "It was almost as simple as wanting three players instead of two". The fact that they liked Brodeur more than Kidd was secondary to getting the extra draft pick. For that matter, was it Lou who identified Brodeur, or was it Dave Conte and the scouting department?

Same question with Neidermeyer, I guess. If Dave Conte and the scouts told him to get lottery tickets for the 91 draft, and made the call on Neidermeyer being their pick, then don't the scouts deserve the credit for him too?

As for Stevens, there's also rumors that the arbitrator might have ruled against the Blues because they signed Stevens away from Washington and threw the salary landscape into chaos. Lou definitely gets credit for making Stevens his request and successfully arguing for him, but it's not like he was the one who went out and found the trade. He just made the best of a bad situation that was likely caused by his negotiation tactics with Shanahan.

 

[Toene]

Nobody can be in the NHL game for 40 years without some marks on their record. Scotty Bowman got fired in Buffalo. Al Arbour’s second stint as a coach was mediocre. David Poile’s teams lost more games than they won. The list goes on and on.

Nobody remembers that stuff when it comes to legacy. Only a select few have had long careers with a strong run of success resulting in multiple Stanley Cups. Lou is one of them, that will be the legacy people remember and care about in the long run.

Poile is not even in the same universe as Bowman, Arbour and Lamoriello in terms of success. Poile was a pretty good GM. He made a couple good trades, drafted and developed some elite defensemen, reached the finals once. That's good, but not great.

 

[Chessarmy]

Lamoriello is one of the greatest GMs in the history of the game. This thread misses the mark. He has done so much good for the Islanders franchise including two back-to-back conference finals and helping to secure them a new building. His legacy will be that of a legendary manager.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

For a 3 time cup winner (5 finals appearances), eastern conference finals appearances don't move the needle.

Not really impressed with his isles work tbh. Tons of bad contracts and mostly a middling team that never really had a shot at winning a cup.

Do you forget the Isles forcing a game 7 in the ECF and losing 1-0 to the eventual Cup champion Lightning? I don't think that a team that gets to back-to-back ECF's can be deemed a fluke.

 

[Bleedred]

His legacy is more than fine.

He shouldn’t be a GM or POHOPS in the league anymore.

And not because he’s 82, but because he just isn’t good enough anymore.

 

[Brodeur]

In that article, Lou's first sentence was literally "It was almost as simple as wanting three players instead of two". The fact that they liked Brodeur more than Kidd was secondary to getting the extra draft pick. For that matter, was it Lou who identified Brodeur, or was it Dave Conte and the scouting department?

Same question with Neidermeyer, I guess. If Dave Conte and the scouts told him to get lottery tickets for the 91 draft, and made the call on Neidermeyer being their pick, then don't the scouts deserve the credit for him too?

As for Stevens, there's also rumors that the arbitrator might have ruled against the Blues because they signed Stevens away from Washington and threw the salary landscape into chaos. Lou definitely gets credit for making Stevens his request and successfully arguing for him, but it's not like he was the one who went out and found the trade. He just made the best of a bad situation that was likely caused by his negotiation tactics with Shanahan.

For sure scouts should get the credit. I think in general GMs get too much credit/blame for picks when they simply don't have time to scout amateur players.

The Shanahan signing was a few years before my time as a fan, so I'd have to dig up more into the circumstances. Free agency was still a new thing in every sport, so it seemed like everybody was navigating uncharted waters. Group I offer sheets are particularly strange to read about in retrospect. When the Rangers signed Adam Graves from the Oilers, Edmonton requested a couple prospects as compensation but the arbitrator admitted that had no idea how to value them so he sided with the Rangers.

I don't think any Devils fan would say Lou was batting 1.000 with every transaction. Pretty much every GM with 20+ years is going to have some blemishes.

Over time I think one layer for Lou's legacy is the type of structure he establishes. Dean Lombardi credited Lou with mentoring him when he was a young GM in San Jose. We hear stories from retired players about how they hated it at the time but now admit that Lou's rules were something they needed.

 

[2023FriendshipTour]

He's a legendary GM and the Isles have had some good years recently, but you can see where the team is going and the contracts that have been handed out.. time for a refresh and Lou going off to a more senior non hockey ops position if he wants to keep working.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Do you forget the Isles forcing a game 7 in the ECF and losing 1-0 to the eventual Cup champion Lightning? I don't think that a team that gets to back-to-back ECF's can be deemed a fluke.

I didn't say they were flukes, just don't think they move the needle for his legacy. They did well those two playoffs but those weren't cup caliber rosters, which is why Tampa ultimately won both years. And 2021 was 4 seasons ago, his moves have gotten worse every year since then.

 

[RANDOMH3RO]

Couple of questions about those 3 moves.

Didn't he draft down in the 1990 1st round, giving up picks 11 and 32 for picks 20, 24 and 29? Was the point of that trade really to get Brodeur at 20, or was he simply getting another 2nd and got lucky?

And he traded Tom Kurvers at the beginning of the 89-90 season for a 1991 1st, which is what ended up being Neidermeyer. Was the point of the trade to get the 3rd OA pick in 1991, or did he again, get kind of lucky with that?

And he got Stevens because the Blues wanted to sign Shanahan to a big RFA contract, which meant NJ needed to be compensated, which ended up going to an arbitrator, who ultimately awarded them Stevens (instead of St Louis's offer of CuJo, Rob Brind'Amour, and 2 conditional picks). One more time, was the intention of not paying Shanahan more to get Stevens, or did he just kind of get lucky with that?

I would say all 3 moves could be considered “lucky”. He would have to be a fortune teller for it not be partially considered luck for those 3 moves to all work out. But he definitely identified the players he wanted and made sure he got them.

For Brodeur draft, both swapped first rounders were used to draft goalies so I would imagine Lou knew a goalie he valued as much as Kidd would be available later in the first round. For Stevens, I can’t imagine he could have purposely foresaw the blues signing Shanahan with the intention of rewarding Stevens in return. But he insisted on getting the player he wanted instead of what was offered, and even batted the blues back down later when they tampered to try and get Stevens to return with an offer sheet that Stevens signed and Lou matched and the blues were later penalized for tampering. Those 2 moves I would consider fortunate and insightful moves to make. I would say he knew what he was doing in the grand scheme of those moves.

The Niedermayer move is mostly dumb luck, couldn’t have known the pick would turn out to be so perfect, so he only gets partial credit for this one.

 

[StreetHawk]

I didn't say they were flukes, just don't think they move the needle for his legacy. They did well those two playoffs but those weren't cup caliber rosters, which is why Tampa ultimately won both years. And 2021 was 4 seasons ago, his moves have gotten worse every year since then.

You can't exclude that the team was in Brooklyn/Nassau at the time and dealing with arena issues. Under those circumstances, he did as well as he could to ice a roster as the team didn't trade Tavares for assets.

Finally have their UBS Arena and are stable in that now. That should now put them in a good position add players in free agency.

But, I don't think he's the GM to do that anymore. From Trotz, to Lambert to Roy, he's had too many HC in a short period of time. More the roster than the HC now.

 

[David Bruce Banner]

Lou is a better than average GM, for sure, but given enough time, there will be inevitable downs to go with the ups.
People assume too much ultimate agency when it comes to assessing GM's. A lot of their legacy is built on sheer luck... good players dropping to them in the draft, good scouting, relative team health, the opportunity to fleece legitimately bad GM's before they get fired, unexpected late bloomers, non-obstructionist ownership.
A good GM puts things in place to take advantage or facilitate these kinds of windfalls, but the danger is when they begin to believe their own press and start to think they are more smart than lucky. Having extended success can also leave them unprepared for adversity. What do they do when what they have always done stops working? Can they embrace change and still be lead the pack in useful innovation?
At one time guys like Lou, Ken Holland, Steve Yzerman and Peter Chiarelli were highly thought of, now the opinion is much more mixed, to say the least.
So yeah, I don't think we "question" Lou's legacy as GM... I mean, we can't take away his very real successes in this league... but we can put it into perspective. And that perspective, in my books, is that he has been an above average GM.
No one gets to just sit on top of a dynasty, Sam Pollock style anymore. I'd have liked to have seen how great his legacy would have been if he had had to GM the Golden Seals for a while.