When are we going to be honest with ourselves about how bad Kyle Dubas is?

[qc14]

From his time in PIT -- I will defend the Karlsson trade, where he probably should've had to pay a 1st alone to get out of all the bad cap he sent out. Bringing in another established star coming off a historic season was a good bet to make for where they were at as well. It was both strategically (the idea behind the deal) and tactically (actual mechanics of the trade) sound.

Since then, every other move he's made has been at best strategically and tactically misaligned and at worst straight up bad. Signing two complimentary top four guys to play with Karlsson and Letang was the right idea, but the talent ID on having those two guys be Graves and Gryczlyk is horrendously bad.

The Guentzel trade is the best example of this. In a vacuum, the return is OK, but it just doesn't make any sense direction-wise. If they were trying to still be competitive, the best option would clearly have been to just extend Guentzel, or try to get more NHL-ready prospects, or flip the draft/prospect capital for another established player. If they wanted to rebuild, they should've taken a lower volume of higher quality pieces and not explicitly asked for Bunting to come back.

The most infuriating thing to me though is this sentiment in the media that he's boxed in by Crosby/Malkin and that the kind of big moves they needed weren't available without torching the small amount of future assets they do have. It's your job to make those things happen! Their direct rivals in the Caps made not one or two or three but four of those kinds of moves this summer! Nashville and Seattle made things happen! Tampa significantly remade their core group! All Dubas did (in either direction) was tinker around the margins, and those tinkerings sucked!

He inherited a very tough situation, and probably has one more button to press by firing Sullivan. It wasn't an impossible situation though, and Dubas has completely screwed it.

 

[PaulD]

It's not the coaches fault that he doesn't have enough depth at forward.

The coach hasn't won a play off round in almost 7 years. Gone through about 50 forwards in that time. And three general managers.

It's doesn't have to be "the coaches fault" in order to fire him. Are you new?
Sheldon Keefe ....was it his fault in Toronto ? Nope but a change was made anyway.
Cassidy in Boston?
DeBoar in Vegas?
Boudreau in Vancouver?
Brunette in Florida. Was it Berubes "fault" in St Louis ?
Nope, but he got canned none the less. ......etc etc etc .

"It's not the coaches fault" ha! so what . Time for a new coach anyways. That's how Sullivan himself got the job in the first place.

 

[TooManyHumans]

Is it the coach's fault when a team with the talent of the Penguins is horrible on three power play and misses the playoffs by one point in two straight years? Because that seems to me like it should be somewhat on the coach.

 

[JKG33]

From his time in PIT -- I will defend the Karlsson trade, where he probably should've had to pay a 1st alone to get out of all the bad cap he sent out. Bringing in another established star coming off a historic season was a good bet to make for where they were at as well. It was both strategically (the idea behind the deal) and tactically (actual mechanics of the trade) sound.

He paid a first to take out the trash, but then took on a contract worse than anything he sent out

 

[PaulD]

Is it the coach's fault when a team with the talent of the Penguins is horrible on three power play and misses the playoffs by one point in two straight years? Because that seems to me like it should be somewhat on the coach.

Could name a hundred coaches that were fired for less.

 

[Leafshater67]

Ah yes that 1-2 million in cap space would have made the difference.

If your top players can’t score, it’s on them.
Dubas gave the leafs a very solid chance every year. He made some mistakes but obviously was learning from those mistakes, he also made some good picks, trades and signings.

Allowing one guy to fleece the team sets the market and the culture for the rest. You think oilers D will sign for cheap after Nurse?

He should have forced Matthews on a 11m x 8, Nylander on a 8m x 8 and Marner on an 8.5 x 8. It could be done, they were literally RFA’s. Better players have signed for that today with the cap up.

 

[Empoleon8771]

From his time in PIT -- I will defend the Karlsson trade, where he probably should've had to pay a 1st alone to get out of all the bad cap he sent out. Bringing in another established star coming off a historic season was a good bet to make for where they were at as well. It was both strategically (the idea behind the deal) and tactically (actual mechanics of the trade) sound.

Since then, every other move he's made has been at best strategically and tactically misaligned and at worst straight up bad. Signing two complimentary top four guys to play with Karlsson and Letang was the right idea, but the talent ID on having those two guys be Graves and Gryczlyk is horrendously bad.

The Guentzel trade is the best example of this. In a vacuum, the return is OK, but it just doesn't make any sense direction-wise. If they were trying to still be competitive, the best option would clearly have been to just extend Guentzel, or try to get more NHL-ready prospects, or flip the draft/prospect capital for another established player. If they wanted to rebuild, they should've taken a lower volume of higher quality pieces and not explicitly asked for Bunting to come back.

The most infuriating thing to me though is this sentiment in the media that he's boxed in by Crosby/Malkin and that the kind of big moves they needed weren't available without torching the small amount of future assets they do have. It's your job to make those things happen! Their direct rivals in the Caps made not one or two or three but four of those kinds of moves this summer! Nashville and Seattle made things happen! Tampa significantly remade their core group! All Dubas did (in either direction) was tinker around the margins, and those tinkerings sucked!

He inherited a very tough situation, and probably has one more button to press by firing Sullivan. It wasn't an impossible situation though, and Dubas has completely screwed it.

I think this is a pretty fair write-up on Dubas with the Penguins. I will note that I think the Guentzel deal was fine with the prospects they got back, but you're absolutely right that it was silly to insist on including Bunting in the deal as well. They were much better off getting more value (even though I imagine it was small) and not getting Bunting, especially because you can just sign someone in UFA to provide what Bunting provies.

I do think Dubas has drafted well, I think the Yager pick was good (and he got another good prospect back for him) and the Brunicke pick looks great so far. He also had some mid/late rounders (Ilyin and Pieniniemi are the two big ones) that are looking good. But his trades have been overall meh and his UFA signings have been terrible.

 

[Nineteen67]

Ah yes that 1-2 million in cap space would have made the difference.

If your top players can’t score, it’s on them.
Dubas gave the leafs a very solid chance every year. He made some mistakes but obviously was learning from those mistakes, he also made some good picks, trades and signings.

He built some poor teams in Toronto and never gave them a chance to win. Ever. Now they’re kind of stuck in no man’s land because they an apprentice GM run the show.

His biggest mistake- “ we can and we will”. He should not have signed Tavares, although he didn’t know that Marner, Matthews and Nylander would get pushed out of the playoffs and not able to compete, but still, they needed a #1D and he should have recognized that.

He is much a much better GM today than he was during his training.

 

[Peasy]

He built some poor teams in Toronto and never gave them a chance to win. Ever. Now they’re kind of stuck in no man’s land because they an apprentice GM run the show.

His biggest mistake- “ we can and we will”. He should not have signed Tavares, although he didn’t know that Marner, Matthews and Nylander would get pushed out of the playoffs and not able to compete, but still, they needed a #1D and he should have recognized that.

He is much a much better GM today than he was during his training.

No JT signing, who knows maybe the Leafs make a run at signing Petro.

Leafs had a clear strength and a clear weakness and Dubas decided to buff the strength even more and ignore the weakness.

 

[Nineteen67]

He inherited

Kadri 4x4.5M

Matthews + Nylander + Marner on ELCs

I believe Rielly was at 4.5M at that time too

Signed old man Marleau, then attached a 1st to dump him (Seth Jarvis was the pick)

Had the Konecny draft pick in 2015, so many elite options. Traded back for Dermott

Traded Kadri for Kerfoot + Barrie, literally might be the worst trade in franchise history

I liked the Muzzin acquisition and Knies pick, but overall he was dog shit and has continued to do the same in Pittsburgh.

Forgot LOL signed Tavares for 11M, when we had Matthews as the 1C + Kadri as the 2C on a steal of a contract, when the defence needed work.

Lou signed Marleau? But his cap mismanagement lead to giving up a first to get rid of him. They should have still been rebuilding and acquiring draft picks and talent at that time, but he jumped the gun and destroyed any hope they had.

 

[qc14]

I think this is a pretty fair write-up on Dubas with the Penguins. I will note that I think the Guentzel deal was fine with the prospects they got back, but you're absolutely right that it was silly to insist on including Bunting in the deal as well. They were much better off getting more value (even though I imagine it was small) and not getting Bunting, especially because you can just sign someone in UFA to provide what Bunting provies.

Yea I get wanting Bunting back IF you also make other moves this offseason to be more competitive. I don't know why you do it if your other big change is taking on a Kevin Hayes cap dump ...

As for the drafting it certainly seems better than the late Rutherford/Hextall which admittedly is maybe the lowest bar in the league to clear lol

 

[TheGoldenJet]

For the record:

I TOLD YOU SO.

Dubas needs fired.

 

[PaulD]

Allowing one guy to fleece the team sets the market and the culture for the rest. You think oilers D will sign for cheap after Nurse?

He should have forced Matthews on a 11m x 8, Nylander on a 8m x 8 and Marner on an 8.5 x 8. It could be done, they were literally RFA’s. Better players have signed for that today with the cap up.

Dubas tried to buy his way into the Beiber Boys Club.

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

Lou signed Marleau? But his cap mismanagement lead to giving up a first to get rid of him. They should have still been rebuilding and acquiring draft picks and talent at that time, but he jumped the gun and destroyed any hope they had.

Dubas led to a first being used to get rid of Marleau. Bad GM does bad GM things. Signing Tavares is what did that. Bad GM.

 

[Pens x]

Ownership is horrendous, management is even worse, and Sullivan is 4 years past his expiration date. It is a very poorly run franchise. It’s mind blowing that they found dumber people than Hextall and Burke.

 

[All Mod Cons]

Some people have known for at least 5 years.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Dubas' biggest mistake since joining the Pens isn't any of his player acquisitions. It's his keeping Mike Sullivan as the head coach.

 

[1specter]

He set back the Leafs franchise significantly the last few years (Shanahan is also complicit in this) yet he continues to fail upwards. I genuinely don't get it.

Dubas' biggest mistake since joining the Pens isn't any of his player acquisitions. It's his keeping Mike Sullivan as the head coach.

He sucks at being cutthroat and when he is it usually blows up in his face (see: Kadri trade)

He inherited

Kadri 4x4.5M

Matthews + Nylander + Marner on ELCs

I believe Rielly was at 4.5M at that time too

Signed old man Marleau, then attached a 1st to dump him (Seth Jarvis was the pick)

Had the Konecny draft pick in 2015, so many elite options. Traded back for Dermott

Traded Kadri for Kerfoot + Barrie, literally might be the worst trade in franchise history

I liked the Muzzin acquisition and Knies pick, but overall he was dog shit and has continued to do the same in Pittsburgh.

Forgot LOL signed Tavares for 11M, when we had Matthews as the 1C + Kadri as the 2C on a steal of a contract, when the defence needed work.

Marleau was Lou (though Dubas created the shitstorm cap situation and then used a first that turned into Seth Jarvis to trade him away), and the Dermott selection was Mark Hunter as Dubas reportedly wanted Sebastian Aho. The rest you are correct on. He is a huge shitstain in this organization's history.

 

[BlueAzN]

I knew Dubas was ass the day he gave Locker Room Cancer Marner that horrendous contract

 

[Langway]

All you need to know is that Noel Acciari somehow was given a M-NTC. Noel Acciari!

 

[Saga of the Elk]

Dubas is learning. Give him another 10-15 years and he'll build a winner.

 

[sena]

From his time in PIT -- I will defend the Karlsson trade, where he probably should've had to pay a 1st alone to get out of all the bad cap he sent out. Bringing in another established star coming off a historic season was a good bet to make for where they were at as well. It was both strategically (the idea behind the deal) and tactically (actual mechanics of the trade) sound.

Since then, every other move he's made has been at best strategically and tactically misaligned and at worst straight up bad. Signing two complimentary top four guys to play with Karlsson and Letang was the right idea, but the talent ID on having those two guys be Graves and Gryczlyk is horrendously bad.

The Guentzel trade is the best example of this. In a vacuum, the return is OK, but it just doesn't make any sense direction-wise. If they were trying to still be competitive, the best option would clearly have been to just extend Guentzel, or try to get more NHL-ready prospects, or flip the draft/prospect capital for another established player. If they wanted to rebuild, they should've taken a lower volume of higher quality pieces and not explicitly asked for Bunting to come back.

The most infuriating thing to me though is this sentiment in the media that he's boxed in by Crosby/Malkin and that the kind of big moves they needed weren't available without torching the small amount of future assets they do have. It's your job to make those things happen! Their direct rivals in the Caps made not one or two or three but four of those kinds of moves this summer! Nashville and Seattle made things happen! Tampa significantly remade their core group! All Dubas did (in either direction) was tinker around the margins, and those tinkerings sucked!

He inherited a very tough situation, and probably has one more button to press by firing Sullivan. It wasn't an impossible situation though, and Dubas has completely screwed it.

The Karlsson trade was bad. The worst part was telling the world Sid wants me to get EK before the trade was made. EK went from low value to worth something in the blink of an eye

 

[Seras]

Gifted the dream situation that even my 3 year old nephew likely wins a cup with.

Bungles it so badly by trying to be friends with the young stars and overpaying the shit out of them.

Abysmal trade history, abysmal draft history, abysmal hiring history.


Somehow is wanted by Pittsburgh.

Immediately bungles the last shot of Crosby and Malkin by making a terrible trade for Erik Karlsson when he already has Letang (the same type of 1D PP player) giving up assets for it.


Please explain how this guy is anything but terrible?

31 teams lose every single season while only 1 wins, to think that any team can somehow win a cup by default would mean you can't even meet the pre-req of understanding that basic premise.

I can't answer the final point as everything before it is based on a false premise.

Dubas is learning. Give him another 10-15 years and he'll build a winner.

I mean if he wins a cup in the next 10-15 seasons that would make him above average as only 1 team wins the cup while 31 teams lose every single season.

 

[Voight]

Classic fraud failing upwards by fooling dummies who value talk and appearance more than results.

Ill bring back this post -

This is a good lesson for you kids. Get yourself a pair of black framed glasses and hang around your local rinks with a clipboard using words like synergies and derivatives. You too can make 7M usd as an NHL executive.

[Friedman] Pittsburgh hires Kyle Dubas as President of Hockey Operations

My "insight" is that it's all little more than guesswork, it's hard to say if Shanahan is any good at his job or not. Especially after learning about the tension between him and Dubas. If one likes Shanahan, they will credit him for the Leafs good moves and Dubas for the bad moves. If one likes...

forums.hfboards.com

 

[Voight]

Allowing one guy to fleece the team sets the market and the culture for the rest. You think oilers D will sign for cheap after Nurse?

He should have forced Matthews on a 11m x 8, Nylander on a 8m x 8 and Marner on an 8.5 x 8. It could be done, they were literally RFA’s. Better players have signed for that today with the cap up.

That was going to be hard to do after Eichel got 80 million/8 years.