When are we going to be honest with ourselves about how bad Kyle Dubas is?

[banks]

I'm not a Dubas hater. I was a fan of the guy when he was with Toronto. I feel like his only big issue was mishandling the goaltending situation. But even then, at least he didn't commit to Jack Campbell.

But the majority of the talk about Dubas has been negative for quite a while now, long before he left Toronto. And he's clearly been mishandling the situation in PIT, with no one praising his overall plan. So what honestly are you looking for, OP?

This is like asking if people will be honest about McDavid being a star, or being honest about Ovie chasing the goal record. We all know that already. Who is claiming otherwise?

 

[JKG33]

I don't agree. I think we take for granted for what product we have to watch at the moment. Its not perfect, but we have been right there so many times. It's nerve wracking and it's frustrating and it's entertaining.

If you don't like what's being presented, why are you even a fan?

I'm definitely not taking it for granted. I outright hate this group of players. During the Sundin and even Kessel/Phaneuf years I proudly wore my Leafs jerseys around Winnipeg and took all the shit with a smile.

But now? Every chirp I get I agree with. Like yea people are right, this is a group of f***ing losers. I'm embarrassed to cheer for this team. But unfortunately I'll always be a "fan" I just can't wait for this pathetic era to be over

Dubas always reminded me of the kid that sucked up in class and got freebies from the teacher

If Justin Trudeau were an NHL GM, he'd be Kyle Dubas

 

[JKG33]

Wild how bad that JG return was

When the trade happened you could get threadbanned for pointing out just how bad it was

 

[Flair Hay]

Lou wasn't going to be Shanny's patsy. Lou is a true leader.

The Leafs are a political organization. Every person in power has a scapegoat.

Dumbass was the shield for Shamascam. Dumbass is gone because at the last minute he tried to usurp Scamasham. Treliving was hired and of course couldn't make changes because he needed time to assess the team that plateu'd 6 years ago. Nevermind the fact that everyone was re-signed to even worse garbage contract.

Pelley is the next Shanahan, who will be gone this summer when his contract expires. They couldn't make any real changes this summer because Pelley needed time to assess the situation. It's very complicated here in Leafland where nothing has changed for a half decade plus.

Once Scamascam is gone. Then Pelley will get time to trial and then eventually fire Treliving and hire his new GM. Then the new GM will get time to trial and then eventually fire Berube and hire a new coach. Then the coach will get time to fix things! This year is different!!

All the while it is imperative to keep around the Snore Fore, because we absolutely cannot replace them!!! We are not here to sell jerseys, we are here to win the Stanley Cup!!

This seems like a pretty accurate depiction of the future if the core guys don't snap out of it and go on a real run

 

[Wings4Life]

Dubas doesn't know how to evaluate goalies.

He believed in Jack in TO and believed in Jarry in Pittsburgh, both guys were/are terrible.

 

[Empoleon8771]

It wasn't hindsight, anyone with foresight could see it coming like an 18 wheeler. Only Dubas and Karlsson fanboys were dumb enough to stand there like a deer in the headlights

Do you remember how bad Granlund was viewed at the time of the deal? The entire league clowned on the Penguins for trading a 2nd for him (which was arguably the deal that got Hextall fired) and he proceeded to be horrendous for them.

At the time of the deal, it was effectively 3 cap dumps and a 1st for Karlsson. Granlund has turned it around great with San Jose but he was viewed as an awful piece at the time of the deal.

 

[JKG33]

Do you remember how bad Granlund was viewed at the time of the deal? The entire league clowned on the Penguins for trading a 2nd for him (which was arguably the deal that got Hextall fired) and he proceeded to be horrendous for them.

At the time of the deal, it was effectively 3 cap dumps and a 1st for Karlsson. Granlund has turned it around great with San Jose but he was viewed as an awful piece at the time of the deal.

Yes I do remember. But just because he was a bad contract doesn't mean it's a good idea to double his salary on a useless player.

Petry may have been a cap dump but at least he was a useful player. I'd take him at his salary over Karlsson at his quite easily.

Dubas paid a 1st to get the worst contract in the deal. Very on brand

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

These just come across as more excuses for dubas. I dont get why people will justify anything to fault anyone but him for results that have transpired under his tenure in an NHL managerial role?

He didnt want to take the job? Which other team was offering him a role with president title and so much term and money?

He came across as definately wanting the job as it was with FSG where he has ties and connections to ownership and got 7 years ~7M despite a half a decade of incompetence and failed results for his previous team.

He ended his tenure with TML getting himself fired with his media antics and trying to go over Shanahan for his role with ownership.

I didn't intend to take it personal but if it came across that way then my apologies

There is no point arguing with you any further though. You will keep/hold your view on dubas and I will hold mine.

I don't have a dog in the Dubas fight. It was my understanding that there was significantly more "interference" from Shanny with regard to roster construction than most other organizations. Don't know if that's true though - or just what I had heard. That's probably to be expected with a high visibility/scrutiny franchise like the Leafs.

Dubas did get worked in the early contract negotiations - and that put the organization behind the 8 ball. After that - I feel like he tried to adapt the roster construction the best he could - but at some point the core 4 has to step up and they haven't yet.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

Not really, people will talk about trading a draft pick for player for example the pick that was used to select Niedermayer but that pick wasn't traded knowing it was going to be a 3rd overall pick with the potential to select a HOFer. It was a futures trade.

The Kadri trade was a trade made knowing very well what the value of each of the pieces were. It wasn't a future draft pick that hadn't been determined yet, the players involved had real tangible value + contracts.

Kadri for 4 years at 4.5M for one year of Barrie and Kerfoot who is complete trash

Making that trade knowing damn well what the value of every player involved in it, is pretty horrific. I legitimately don't think there is a worse trade in the teams history.

Rask for Raycroft was horrendous as well but Rask was a prospect at the time.

The Avs' also retained 50% of Barrie's money, and pretty sure that Kadri had just been suspended in the play-off's for the second time in a row. The Leafs also had just signed Tavares so Kadri as a #3C would have been a huge luxury the team couldn't afford.

 

[CharasLazyWrister]

The Avs' also retained 50% of Barrie's money, and pretty sure that Kadri had just been suspended in the play-off's for the second time in a row. The Leafs also had just signed Tavares so Kadri as a #3C would have been a huge luxury the team couldn't afford.

Which is exactly why the Tavares signing was stupid to begin with. Dubas added a redundant piece which then pinched the rest of the lineup with the salary cap for the future. He/they constantly thought that by tinkering with everything but their obvious surplus of skill forwards, they could correct the problem. It failed over and over again.

Dubas seems like a competitive guy. He clearly wants to be the one to land the big fish and clearly tries to make good “value” trades. The problem is that he doesn’t seem at all able to or interested in actually balancing a lineup or making acquisitions based on the team he actually has. It reeks of a guy operating on ego rather than any thought out strategy. Which is odd because the Leafs hired him after apparently being impressed at his master plan he brought to the initial interview. Would have loved to take a gander at that plan.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

Which is exactly why the Tavares signing was stupid to begin with. Dubas added a redundant piece which then pinched the rest of the lineup with the salary cap for the future. He/they constantly thought that by tinkering with everything but their obvious surplus of skill forwards, they could correct the problem. It failed over and over again.

Dubas seems like a competitive guy. He clearly wants to be the one to land the big fish and clearly tries to make good “value” trades. The problem is that he doesn’t seem at all able to or interested in actually balancing a lineup or making acquisitions based on the team he actually has. It reeks of a guy operating on ego rather than any thought out strategy. Which is odd because the Leafs hired him after apparently being impressed at his master plan he brought to the initial interview. Would have loved to take a gander at that plan.

Would respectfully disagree on the Tavares deal being stupid. Would have been much better to lock up the kids before signing that deal, but Tavares is honestly one of the better UFA contracts signed in the last 10 years. The issue to me is that the pro-scouting on the Leafs thought that Barrie would be a good fit - and he was horrendous. If the Leafs make a better Kadri deal to stabilize the blueline - the Tavares deal looks a lot better.

It all comes back to me that for a team to win in the P/O's - the best players have deliver the goods - and AM/MM/JT haven't done so yet. This is especially true on a top-heavy roster.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think the Tavares signing was obviously a needless addition that just further complicated their cap structure, but I do wonder how much authority Dubas realistically had with that signing. He was just brought on as the full-time GM and a local Toronto star wanted to go play for Toronto. The smart move would have been to say "we don't need him and need to be smart with our cap allocation", but a brand new GM saying that in that situation would be bold as hell.

Even had they said no to that and kept Kadri as their 2C, they'd still be paying Kadri about $8 million a year as their 2C rather than Tavares $11 million a year. So it would be cheaper but not like crazily so.

 

[H3ckt1k]

I'm definitely not taking it for granted. I outright hate this group of players. During the Sundin and even Kessel/Phaneuf years I proudly wore my Leafs jerseys around Winnipeg and took all the shit with a smile.

But now? Every chirp I get I agree with. Like yea people are right, this is a group of f***ing losers. I'm embarrassed to cheer for this team. But unfortunately I'll always be a "fan" I just can't wait for this pathetic era to be over


If Justin Trudeau were an NHL GM, he'd be Kyle Dubas

But I thought this thread was about Dubas being a bad gm? Trudeau would be top 5

 

[Peasy]

When the trade happened you could get threadbanned for pointing out just how bad it was

Guys he DID get a first!!!! (no he didnt).

Guys he got prospects to help the line up win today (not one of the prospects are playing in the NHL for them).

Guys he got Bunting to replace Guentzel (Bunting is in the dog house and on the 4th line).

My god the defending of that trade when it happened as asinine.

How do you trade Jake f***ing Guentzel and not even get a 1st round pick back.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Wild how bad that JG return was

The Guentzel trade was fine outside of Dubas insisting on getting Bunting in the deal. Koivunen is having a strong start in WBS (5 points in 6 games) and Ponomarev looked good when he was healthy. They also got Cruz Lucius, who I think is hurt right now. They drafted Brunicke with the 2nd rounder, who nearly made the Penguins out of camp.

It was definitely quantity over quality but the return was fine. It was basically 3 2nds and a 4th in value instead of a 1st, 2nd and 4th in value.

 

[josra33]

Is there a general consensus defending Dubas?

 

[Empoleon8771]

Is there a general consensus defending Dubas?

Most Penguins fans would say he has done a mediocre/poor job, although there are definitely still some that buy into the hype.

I think there are more people saying Dubas is shit than Dubas is great at this point.

 

[RickyLafleur]

Because everyone knows this, and outside of Pittsburgh and possibly Toronto, nobody cares.

 

[Sniper99]

Hes pretty good........ at getting fleeced at contract negotiations.

I'm sure its goes down something like this...

Player: I want an 8 year deal at 11 mill per year
Dubas: Well I'm sorry we're offering 6 year 7 mill per year.
Agent: Hmmm well I just got this email from another team offering 8 year 11.5
Player: Hmmmm I think we should go with them
Dubas: in panic mode. OK OK we'll match it!!!
Player and Agent: (after signing) what a sucker LOL

 

[TooManyHumans]

Is there a general consensus defending Dubas?

I will judge him more harshly if Sullivan is ever replaced. It is really hard to judge the talent with Sullivan running his worn out "system."

 

[Zirakzigil]

I will judge him more harshly if Sullivan is ever replaced. It is really hard to judge the talent with Sullivan running his worn out "system."

This. Sully has been the problem long before Dubas. Dubas was fighting ownership on replacing him over the summer. I cant imagine this start is endearing ownership to continue to defend Sully.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Classic fraud failing upwards by fooling dummies who value talk and appearance more than results.

 

[Pablo El Perro]

Not really, people will talk about trading a draft pick for player for example the pick that was used to select Niedermayer but that pick wasn't traded knowing it was going to be a 3rd overall pick with the potential to select a HOFer. It was a futures trade.

The Kadri trade was a trade made knowing very well what the value of each of the pieces were. It wasn't a future draft pick that hadn't been determined yet, the players involved had real tangible value + contracts.

Kadri for 4 years at 4.5M for one year of Barrie and Kerfoot who is complete trash

Making that trade knowing damn well what the value of every player involved in it, is pretty horrific. I legitimately don't think there is a worse trade in the teams history.

Rask for Raycroft was horrendous as well but Rask was a prospect at the time.

That's a fair assessment. Trading the Nieds pick and even the first Kessel trade, while both pretty bad, involved unknowns from Toronto. What makes the Kadri trade even worse, in hindsight, is Dubas forced himself into it by signing Tavares, which made Kadri seem redundant.

 

[Sniper99]

I would take the JFJ teams in an instant over the circus that was the Dubas era, at least those teams worked hard

Who could ever forget the Jeff Finger signing. Dufas was awful (used to get ripped a new one by the 5 Dubas supporters in the leafs board for calling him Dufas) But the GM's that came before him were way worse.

My Dad bought me the Why The Leafs Suck book and Why The Leafs STILL Suck book as a gag gift for a couple Christmas' and some of the players Ballard wouldnt let us draft in the 70's and 80's and who we drafted instead had me losing my mind.

 

[josra33]

Most Penguins fans would say he has done a mediocre/poor job, although there are definitely still some that buy into the hype.

I think there are more people saying Dubas is shit than Dubas is great at this point.

That’s my understanding as well. I thought the general consensus from all fanbases was that he was garbage