When are we going to be honest with ourselves about how bad Kyle Dubas is?

Guided by Veseys

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Nov 14, 2011
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Wow the dubas lovers are going to be mad when they see this thread
I’m wondering where they are? They post all day on the leafs board defending every little thing Dubas did, derailing pretty much every thread, and now there is a chance to defend their bespectacled hero on the main stage and they are nowhere to be found.
I’ll send out the bat signal: “by all comparisons Mitch Marner was grossly overpaid with his last contract”
 

Peasy

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I still would still want Dubas to be in charge of my team going through a rebuild/re-tool. Compared to pre Dubas/Lamoriello Toronto, the Leafs have been very successful from a business stand point. They've made the playoffs 8 years in a row. Between 2006-2016 they made the playoffs only once. Obviously the round one exits is a major concern, but to me that is more on the players than the construction of the team. Leafs' stars simply fold in tight playoff games.

As much as every team was impacted by the Covid salary cap situation, I struggle to see a team more impacted than the Leafs by this with the timing of those contracts signed.

He definitely deserves lots of criticism for the arrogance by doubling down with his plan once it was clear it wasn't working. Seemed like it was finally clicking in for him regarding changing the plan at the time he was let go.

Regarding Pittsburgh, I have a feeling he doesn't have full control of decisions. To me it looks like he was tasked with trying to compete one last time with the core of older players in Pittsburgh. IMO, there's no better GM to handle the tear down and rebuild of the Penguins that is clearly coming.

Karlsson also expires in 2027, where the Pens will definitely be in a rebuild/tear down at this point. He gambled on another older player hoping to catch fire. I don't really see a negative in that. It's not going to harm them long term.
This is the most ironic thing out of all the Dubas stuff. Dude left and strongarmed the Leafs because he wanted full autonomy just to go to a job where he does not have full autonomy.

Says a lot about the dude.
 

WarriorofTime

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I am not even interested in defending Dubas. I simply cannot judge him until Sullivan is gone. It is insane that Sullivan is still the head coach of this team. He steadfastly refuses to alter what he expects the team to do no matter what the team is actually capable of doing. It is not 2017 anymore but no one seems to have told Sullivan.
Getting taken to the cleaners by players coming off their ELCs that didn't even have arbitration rights is GM Malpractice. Nobody around the League was getting the kinds of contracts those guys got as they just entered RFA.
 

I am Canadian

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This is the most ironic thing out of all the Dubas stuff. Dude left and strongarmed the Leafs because he wanted full autonomy just to go to a job where he does not have full autonomy.

Says a lot about the dude.
I mean, more money and less pressure. There is also likely is some kind of acknowledgement that after Crosby retires he has full autonomy. He may have also simply disliked Shanahan.
 

BillyOcean

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I don't agree with more than a few Dubas moves, but im unsure why people (Leafs people) are making a Stanley Cup victory sort of the barometer here. This past off-season for Dubas was much better than his last. He took on salary to get draft picks in return. Those players are doing well enough now where they have a spot on the team in the future or can be shipped for future picks. The last hurrah was getting Karlsson. That didn't work. Dubas didn't double down on another big name player. The Penguins are feigning trying to remain competitive while stocking up roster players.

The next challenge will be if this team sucks as it has, when will he pull the plug on Sullivan? Will he be bold enough to fire sell guys like Pettersson at the deadline?

I'm not going to judge Dubas fully on these last years of Crosby because there's no stopping the fall.
 

Hockey Outsider

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He simply does not understand or respect the defensive side of the puck. When he *finally* spends money on defense, it's Erik Karlsson, who, while fun to watch and a great player in his own way, wouldn't know the defensive zone if it gave him a wedgie. Of course, in Toronto, not only was the roster top heavy, it was top heavy with forwards. He simply does not seem to consider defensive players to be worth paying or considering as part of the core.

I've had this post bookmarked for a while because it, and particularly the chart at top, remain an amazing insight into just how badly Toronto f***ed up its contract structure under Dubas. Enjoy:


1661026470636-png.578380
Glad you enjoyed that post. I'll also quote another one of my previous posts, about how badly he handled the negotiation of Matthews' contract:

I think Matthews' agent took Dubas for a ride when his previous contract was signed in 2019. Forget about the dollar value and term - everything about how the contract was negotiated favours Matthews.

From a tax standpoint, it allowed him to structure his affairs in such a way that he'll save millions of dollars in income tax over the course of his career (by potentially enabling him to pay tax on the majority of his income at Arizona rates, which is more than 10% lower than Ontario's top rate).

From a finance standpoint, the contract was frontloaded. Matthews collected 53% of his earnings in the first 13 months of a five year contract. That's stunning. It means Matthews received and could start investing his earnings sooner. Over the course of his career, the impact on his net worth would be substantial.

From a leverage standpoint, Matthews was given a NMC (granted, only for the final year). This is the least of the concerns.

I don't fault Matthews for this. In fact, I've commended him for getting good advice. But you'd think that by offering these huge advantages to Matthews, Dubas would have been able to negotiate a lower AAV.

If I were in Dubas's place, negotiating with Matthews, I would have said something like - "Auston, we think you're one of the best players in the league, and we want you in Toronto long-term. I've spoke to the Board, and we're going to front load your contact, so you'll be getting more than half your money in just over one-fifth of the term. And we'll play ball with you, so that your advisors can put an extra million dollars in your pocket annually, by ensuring you're an Arizona resident for tax purposes. Plus, we'll give you the NMC that you requested. And we'll agree to only a five year term, even though we would have wanted longer.

But we're not willing to make you the 3rd highest player in the league next year. First, I'm already offering you these two substantial advantages that will save you millions of dollars. That has to be taken into account when we determine your salary. Second, you're asking for more money than Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Kane, MacKinnion, Kucherov, etc - but you've never placed in the 20 (let alone the top 10) in scoring. We can't pay for potential, we need results. Third, you're averaging 44 points per 82 games in the playoff. Granted, small sample size, but this city hasn't won a playoff series in almost two decades, and we need to see results in the spring. Fourth, you're an RFA, so you don't have a ton of leverage here if I don't play ball with this."

Instead, Dubas gave Matthews a huge salary, structured the contract in a way that adds millions of dollars of value on top of that, and ignored the leverage he had given Matthews' RFA status. In turn, this raised the salary expectations for Marner and Nylander. Having so much money tied up in three or four forwards (Tavares) hasn't proven to be a winning strategy (for any team) during the salary cap era. I think the Tavares contract was the first step, but Matthews' 2019 contract, in many ways, was even worse. (Matthews' new contract suffers from many of these flaws from the Leafs' perspective - but it would be hard for a new GM to try to negotiate back from what Dubas already agreed to, especially since they no longer have leverage given his impending UFA status).
 

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Normally being young doesn't earn you many points in the managerial world. But it somehow has for Kyle Dubas.

If Dubas were in his 40s or 50s and had the same resume in the NHL, I don't think he would be as highly regarded. Although I'm not sure if he's nearly as regarded anymore.

I bet he gets a third GM/POHOPS job when this one is done. Normally guys don't get a third chance, unless they're like Lou or Rutherford, who have been around a long team and were with their first team for 20-something years. Waddell just got his third GM job, but he wasn't really fired from his last one and he also sounded like he was a complete and total figurehead in Carolina.
 

Tie Domi Esquire

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I don't understand why there is so much intrigue in the notion that the Penguins are at the end and not very good…

Like anyone with a high school education can see why they aren't good. Their best players are almost 40 years old.

The only teams that can even compare to them in the past 15 years are Chicago and Kings in terms of winning. That's the list.

Chicago crashed and burned. Its the same thing happening with the Penguins. People act like this was some golden situation that would continue forever.

I have no clue what goes on in some of your heads.

Leafs fans would blame everything and anything before any of the players for their generation of losing.

It truly is amazing.
 
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SirKillalot

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Karlsson had just won the freaking Norris trophy and they got him without giving up a ton.

It was a worthwhile risk to take, their core group is just too old and Karlsson I think has a weird thing about not being the absolute alpha on the back end (seemed like in San Jose he only really took off once Burns left).
Karlsson on paper is a luxury toy they didn't need to a price (cap hit) they shouldn't have used when they had similar type of player and needed help elsewhere.
 

Tie Domi Esquire

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He hasn't been good for the Pens but I don't get the obsession some Leafs fans have with him.

I haven't given Ray Shero or Gmjr a second thought since they left the Pens. I don't get why you guys care what kd does.

The comparison would be if Shero or Gmjr took over the Penguins in 2007 and then lost every playoff series while nerds that know nothing about the game gave them every excuse in the book for why he failed every year.

Shero and Gmjr went on runs and won Stanley Cups instead. The fact that you haven't thought about them since they've left says a lot. Also please stop lying, thank you.
 

sxvnert

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Nov 23, 2015
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Gifted the dream situation that even my 3 year old nephew likely wins a cup with.

Bungles it so badly by trying to be friends with the young stars and overpaying the shit out of them.

Abysmal trade history, abysmal draft history, abysmal hiring history.


Somehow is wanted by Pittsburgh.

Immediately bungles the last shot of Crosby and Malkin by making a terrible trade for Erik Karlsson when he already has Letang (the same type of 1D PP player) giving up assets for it.


Please explain how this guy is anything but terrible?
Unfortunately far too many "analysts" live vicariously through him so there is zero chance they admit Dubas is a fraud.
 
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TooManyHumans

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Getting taken to the cleaners by players coming off their ELCs that didn't even have arbitration rights is GM Malpractice. Nobody around the League was getting the kinds of contracts those guys got as they just entered RFA.
I don't really care what he did with Toronto. And if players coming off their ELCs is his weakness then as a Penguins fan I'm not concerned. You'd have to actually have some good young players for that to be a concern. Sign me up for that.
 

SmoggyTwinkles

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It's leafs fans. They take everything far too personal.
And yet it's not Leafs fans talking about how Leafs fans feel about Dubas.

I don't give the slightest about how Dubas is doing in Pitts. I kinda feel like he was brought in to be the inevitable fall guy when things start going bad and Crosby and Malkin retire.

Pens fans have seen a lot of success and well Dubas seems like the perfect guy to blame when a rebuild is needed.
 

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The comparison would be if Shero or Gmjr took over the Penguins in 2007 and then lost every playoff series while nerds that know nothing about the game gave them every excuse in the book for why he failed every year.

Shero and Gmjr went on runs and won Stanley Cups instead. The fact that you haven't thought about them since they've left says a lot. Also please stop lying, thank you.
So what was the excuse last year when the Leafs still failed with Treliving at the helm? And what will be the excuse this year if they fall short again?

Obsessing over a former GM just strikes me as all kinds of petty. Hell the guy who posted the OP isn't even a Pens fan.

If I were in the situation you guys were in I'd be too busy obsessing over what the Pens could do to get over the hump to even bother taking pleasure in a former GM's failures.

I don't understand why there is so much intrigue in the notion that the Penguins are at the end and not very good…

Like anyone with a high school education can see why they aren't good. Their best players are almost 40 years old.

The only teams that can even compare to them in the past 15 years are Chicago and Kings in terms of winning. That's the list.

Chicago crashed and burned. Its the same thing happening with the Penguins. People act like this was some golden situation that would continue forever.

I have no clue what goes on in some of your heads.
This is all true but it is insane to me as a Pens fan that Dubas/FSG won't even consider firing Mike Sullivan just in the slight chance that a new coach could make them competitive.

They have nothing to lose. They're already bad.

Dubas' biggest failing for me isn't the EK trade or any other move he's made. Not even the Graves contract.

It's hitching his wagon to Sullivan.
 
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Hockey4Lyfe

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So what was the excuse last year when the Leafs still failed with Treliving at the helm? And what will be the excuse this year if they fall short again?

Obsessing over a former GM just strikes me as all kinds of petty. Hell the guy who posted the OP isn't even a Pens fan.

If I were in the situation you guys were in I'd be too busy obsessing over what the Pens could do to get over the hump to even bother taking pleasure in a former GM's failures.


This is all true but it is insane to me as a Pens fan that Dubas/FSG won't even consider firing Mike Sullivan just in the slight chance that a new coach could make them competitive.

They have nothing to lose. They're already bad.

Dubas' biggest failing for me isn't the EK trade or any other move he's made. Not even the Graves contract.

It's hitching his wagon to Sullivan.
That's fair. If they lose one or two more, not really sure what else they can even do at this point.

Something else needs to be tried. Start with the coaching and then it will be to get out of some these aging players for draft picks to truly start the rebuild.
 
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Tie Domi Esquire

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So what was the excuse last year when the Leafs still failed with Treliving at the helm? And what will be the excuse this year if they fall short again?

Obsessing over a former GM just strikes me as all kinds of petty. Hell the guy who posted the OP isn't even a Pens fan.

If I were in the situation you guys were in I'd be too busy obsessing over what the Pens could do to get over the hump to even bother taking pleasure in a former GM's failures.

The Leafs are supposed to make a 180 shift in one season when 60% of their cap is locked up with bad contracts? This is dumber than the Shero and Rutherford comparison. I would like you to find the part where I champion Treliving as some saviour.

The Penguins are where they are on the pecking order in Pittsburgh, and the Leafs are where they are in Toronto. It's a different scenario altogether. People in Toronto care a tad bit more, you folks out there already forgot Rutherford and Shero's contributions to your franchise.

You're like @Hockey4Lyfe, throwing out irrelevant crap and then not addressing it.
 

WarriorofTime

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I don't really care what he did with Toronto. And if players coming off their ELCs is his weakness then as a Penguins fan I'm not concerned. You'd have to actually have some good young players for that to be a concern. Sign me up for that.
What is his “strength” exactly?
 

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