When are we going to be honest with ourselves about how bad Kyle Dubas is?

[OrrNumber4]

I maintain that the issue isn't the money he handed out, but his loyalty to from the core-4. Maybe a miserly GM saves 3-5 million in the cap, but the main issue has been Toronto's stars disappearing.

 

[Peasy]

Pens have only gotten worse since hes got there but hes a smooth talker so some pens fans will still be believers.

 

[Folignos Helmet]

He's repeating the same three mistakes he made in Toronto, defense, depth and goaltending.
He thought Jarry was the answer, clearly not.
He continues to get vanilla players to fill out the roster, which provide no identity to the team.
And by acquiring Karlsson he lost the money to adequately address the holes in the lineup.

 

[Bruce Granville]

You can and you will…

 

[Weltschmerz]

Pens have only gotten worse since hes got there but hes a smooth talker so some pens fans will still be believers.

There are more leafs fans left that believe in him than pens fans, and those leaf fans are maybe a handful. And the pens were going to get worse anyway, noone was going to save that sinking ship.

 

[ffh]

As a jet fan I loved his rutger yager trade.

 

[PenguinSuitedUp]

Dubas has overall done a good job so far in Pittsburgh and built a very good team in Toronto. Sorry things didn’t work out for you Leafs fans, but he’s not the only one to not win a Cup in Toronto. Is it Dubas, is it Keefe, is it Marner, is it Nylander? You guys just can’t decide. Bottom line is it’s hard to win and most of the time, in spite of best efforts and best laid plans, things just don’t work out in the NHL.

 

[JPT]

All I hear is how bad he is, so i think we're already there

 

[895]

The Karlsson trade is fine. People are acting like he gave up some prize assets. Nah.

The first round pick was the only thing of value. The players were cap dumps. And the Sharks retained.

The real problem is that the Pittsburgh core is too old and there’s nothing anyone can do about it. Dubas was given orders from ownership to try to keep them competitive. It’s obvious now they aren’t and can’t be.

The pens need to do a creative retool this offseason like the caps did.

 

[UnSandvich]

The Karlsson trade is fine. People are acting like he gave up some prize assets. Nah.

The first round pick was the only thing of value. The players were cap dumps. And the Sharks retained.

The real problem is that the Pittsburgh core is too old and there’s nothing anyone can do about it. Dubas was given orders from ownership to try to keep them competitive. It’s obvious now they aren’t and can’t be.

The pens need to do a creative retool this offseason like the caps did.

Honestly, this. From what Dubas was saying early on, it looked like he was going to start retooling the Penguins roster, making them younger, with an eye on future competition rather than present. But with Crosby and co. in town upper management didn't want to commit to that, wanting Dubas to try to contend instead. Which i think we can all see is just not feasible.

 

[Jacob582]

Gifted the dream situation that even my 3 year old nephew likely wins a cup with.

Bungles it so badly by trying to be friends with the young stars and overpaying the shit out of them.

Abysmal trade history, abysmal draft history, abysmal hiring history.


Somehow is wanted by Pittsburgh.

Immediately bungles the last shot of Crosby and Malkin by making a terrible trade for Erik Karlsson when he already has Letang (the same type of 1D PP player) giving up assets for it.


Please explain how this guy is anything but terrible?

All your points are fair expect the one about your nephew.

 

[eXile3]

“The core is too old” lie just keeps spreading. Crosby and Malkin are still very productive players. Pretty sure EK can be to if this wasn’t a Mike Sullivan team.

It’s the garbage that Dubas has surrounded them with. It almost seems like he’s got a duel mandate of winning now and rebuilding. And he’s not doing either.

 

[Jacob582]

By my count, half their forwards are players that other teams didn't want.


I'm not saying that they're not competent NHL'ers, just that it is a lot to collect on one team.

 

[Laus723]

I don’t get how people are saying the Karlsson trade wasn’t a massive mistake right away. Sure, SJ retained and Pitt sent contracts the other way, but why did Dubas and co. think what didn’t work with Burns would work with Letang? Now they’re stuck with those two and their contracts for a couple more years. That first was a big price to pay as well.

Why bring in Hayes? Maybe I missed something, I get he’s a good locker room guy, but he’s not effective on the ice.

The Jarry re-signing appears to be a mistake that didn’t need to be made.

He did now to the core 4 in Toronto and their demands. The Tavares addition, especially the term, was a huge mistake. He never fully addressed the defense. Thought Murray would be the answer in goal for some reason.

All that said, he has a tough job in Pitt that anyone would struggle with, but that Karlsson trade was a big mistake.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Gifted the dream situation that even my 3 year old nephew likely wins a cup with.

Bungles it so badly by trying to be friends with the young stars and overpaying the shit out of them.

Abysmal trade history, abysmal draft history, abysmal hiring history.


Somehow is wanted by Pittsburgh.

Immediately bungles the last shot of Crosby and Malkin by making a terrible trade for Erik Karlsson when he already has Letang (the same type of 1D PP player) giving up assets for it.


Please explain how this guy is anything but terrible?

Shanahan apparently had veto power and also had him make moves he didn't want to make so it's kind of funny he gets all the heat while Shanny doesn't. Sure he's made some bad moves but he's also done good ones.

His situation in Pittsburgh isn't as much his fault as it's Fenway being really tight with Sullivan and gave him a lot of say for what happens on the team and before Dubas was signed, it was already discussed how he was given a lot of power in what happens to this team and moves.

I don't think he's done a bad job considering he wasn't hired to be the GM, he was hired to be the President of Hockey Ops. It wouldn't shock me that other candidates around the league knew of Sullivan and his close relationship with Fenway since it reported nhl execs were aware, then decided not to bother for the vacant job of GM. He wanted to retool but he was also tasked with making sure the team stayed competitive.

The issues look worse with an awful coach. But lol at some of these comments. It's like he stole the girl of every wanker in here super offended by him being in the league still and not even with the team a lot here cheer for.

I'm neither here nor there with him. He got rid of some bad contracts his first year, made some moves this year to get add some picks and hes done pretty well with his drafts.

His biggest issue is Sullivan tanks the roster each year and it cost two Gms their jobs already.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

By my count, half their forwards are players that other teams didn't want.


I'm not saying that they're not competent NHL'ers, just that it is a lot to collect on one team.

Hayes hasn't even been that bad. Beauvillier is useless and Glass has been fine on the 4th line. The issue is coaching. When the coach keeps forcing Rust to work with Crosby and then tries the bare minimum to get players going as well as random idiotic healthy scratches and line up decisions, it makes a lot look worse. Puljujarvi goes from having a good game vs Detroit to being a healthy scratch for literally no reason.

The Pens system has been shit for years, he refuses to make adjustments and when he says he has he refuses to answer questions by the media about what they were.

This is a team that is just coached so poorly. The players look lost trying to play a system that doesn't make sense and is designed to run into walls with no adjustments. When Sid is talking about how bad he's playing defensively and needs to be better, yet the coach doesn't make any adjustments to the way they play or the lines to fix any of it, the blame is the GM? To do what? Beg the idiotic ownership to let him fire Sullivan?

Sullivan, let me remind you, went over his previous Gm's head to negotiate and sign his own extension.

If we're going to say Dubas is dumb, he's dumb for taking the GM job that he never was hired for. He will be another Sullivan casualty like JR, Burke, Hextall, Gonchar, Martin, Recchi, and Reirden.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Pens have only gotten worse since hes got there but hes a smooth talker so some pens fans will still be believers.

Yeah as a Pens fan, I can tell you that is incorrect. They were trending to this before Dubas was hired. These issues were building since 2018.

It came to a head finally 2 seasons ago and Fenway seems to be fine with it because Sullivan is held in the highest regard to them.

 

[TooManyHumans]

The bottom 6 has been better this year. You can't judge Dubas with Sullivan dragging the entire team down, and it's not clear that Dubas is allowed to get rid of him. It amazes me how Sullivan avoids the criticism he so richly deserves, but I get that Maple Leafs fans have a hard on for trashing Dubas. Let me know when they have success without him, although I'm sure this is still somehow his fault.

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

You guys are making it seem like it's so easy... I mean half the people want a retool/rebuild and the other half want us to go all in until the end of Sid-Geno-Letang. He came in and pulled the trigger for EK, which wasn't a bad move considering the cap dumps we made in that deal, yes the 1st rounder sucks but he did give it one last try. It didn't work and he proceeded to trade Jake last year which I think is the start of the "rebuild". He will move everyone going forward, no more buying IMO as we saw with the Hayes trade that came along with a pick. The real problem he has is FSG and the love affair of Mike Sullivan. If I'm Dubas, I fire him after tonight's loss in Vancouver! If FSG says no, I resign...

 

[Honour Over Glory]

“The core is too old” lie just keeps spreading. Crosby and Malkin are still very productive players. Pretty sure EK can be to if this wasn’t a Mike Sullivan team.

It’s the garbage that Dubas has surrounded them with. It almost seems like he’s got a duel mandate of winning now and rebuilding. And he’s not doing either.

It's not even that for the most part. Sullivan prefers to use the players he uses while other coaches will waive the players and try something else. Meanwhile Sullivan talks about accountability and then gifts spots to Rust and Beauvillier without consequence. Dubas isn't even close to being a main problem for this team. It's been Sullivan for a while.

A swap of Rakell with Rust helps Sid's line and literally everyone knows this but Sullivan will refuse to do it because he's got this weird loyalty to Rust - Rust mind you is the biggest Sullivan cheerleader on the team and I know you known this. The Rakell swap also makes O'Connor fine on the LW.

He's never tried Bunting with Sid but kept Beauvillier there for 7 games. It's also how he manages the bench with the minutes and how he deploys these players. He still refuses to match or adjust to the other teams which is absolutely ridiculous.

This is a coach that also played Harkins for 45 games and he scored a total of 0 goals and isn't even an NHL regular anymore. He chooses the wrong line up so often it's comical at this point and there's things that worked in this line up but he also has them play a poor system that is awful defensively.

 

[PaulD]

Gifted the dream situation that even my 3 year old nephew likely wins a cup with.

Bungles it so badly by trying to be friends with the young stars and overpaying the shit out of them.

Abysmal trade history, abysmal draft history, abysmal hiring history.


Somehow is wanted by Pittsburgh.

Immediately bungles the last shot of Crosby and Malkin by making a terrible trade for Erik Karlsson when he already has Letang (the same type of 1D PP player) giving up assets for it.


Please explain how this guy is anything but terrible?

He is terrible. Thst record speaks for itself.
Mike Milbury couldn't gave done worse with the team he was gifted.

 

[ffh]

It's not even that for the most part. Sullivan prefers to use the players he uses while other coaches will waive the players and try something else. Meanwhile Sullivan talks about accountability and then gifts spots to Rust and Beauvillier without consequence. Dubas isn't even close to being a main problem for this team. It's been Sullivan for a while.

A swap of Rakell with Rust helps Sid's line and literally everyone knows this but Sullivan will refuse to do it because he's got this weird loyalty to Rust - Rust mind you is the biggest Sullivan cheerleader on the team and I know you known this. The Rakell swap also makes O'Connor fine on the LW.

He's never tried Bunting with Sid but kept Beauvillier there for 7 games. It's also how he manages the bench with the minutes and how he deploys these players. He still refuses to match or adjust to the other teams which is absolutely ridiculous.

This is a coach that also played Harkins for 45 games and he scored a total of 0 goals and isn't even an NHL regular anymore. He chooses the wrong line up so often it's comical at this point and there's things that worked in this line up but he also has them play a poor system that is awful defensively.

Coaches can't waive players nor do they decide who's on the 23 man roster. Gm's do

 

[tucker3434]

It’s been beaten into the ground for years. He might have made a good pre-cap GM but we’re ~20 years into the cap era now and he’s not good at cap management or finding high value depth.

 

[benfranklin]

Yeah he was put into a brutal situation in Pitt. Lose/lose.

Be the guy to start and likely not finish the rebuild by trading Malkin and Sid?
Try to bring them talent to work with but knowing you dont have the assets or prospect pool to realistically compete.

Now he has to hope one of the two magically go into MVP mode and go on a Cinderella run.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Coaches can't waive players nor do they decide who's on the 23 man roster. Gm's do

So you've read none of what I stated above with Sullivan and how much say he has in this roster.