WJC: Whats wrong with Sweden?

[Svedu]

I think one challenge for them in these tournaments is that they often lack adversity in the earlier games.

For whatever reason, it seems like every year they blow through the round robin and QFs no problem (they've played for a medal now in 17 of the last 19 tournaments), so when the intensity picks up in the medal rounds, they aren't really battle tested.

This year was another example. They spent a total of like 3 mins trailing in their first 5 games, and were even starting to toy with Latvia when they up 3-0 and thought the game was over (which very nearly cost them).

Then they ran into real adversity vs Finland and weren't battle tested enough to weather it.

Since 2007:
6 4th place
3 bronze
6 silver
1 gold

17 wins 2 losses in QFs
11 wins 22 losses in SFs and medal games.

Brutal.

That says it all, didn't even know that. They seem to lose both finals and bronze games. 12 losses against 4 wins means they are likely to lose 2/3 of all medal games. And them winning a final? 16% chance. That is actually insane.

 

[Statsy]

I think it’s obvious their problem this year was goaltending

I don't think there's much arguing that that was their undoing this time around. Thelin had a BRUTAL Semi and Rimpanen has been money all tournament.

 

[gitchiemanitou]

Finnish mentality and team systems are highly tuned to competing against their Swedish bro's. Additionally this year's squad is physically talented, overall disciplined & sporting a hot goalie.

 

[Slimmy]

It’s tough to compare. The US has an inherent advantage at the U18’s as they have their team together for TWO YEARS, leading up to that tournament. Canada dominates Hlinka/Gretzky just because we send our best team, whereas the other countries don’t necessarily do that for a non-IIHF tournament.


Can you explain what this means?

I believe the english term is "milktoast". Bland. Vanilla. Middle of the road.

 

[Svedu]

It’s tough to compare. The US has an inherent advantage at the U18’s as they have their team together for TWO YEARS, leading up to that tournament. Canada dominates Hlinka/Gretzky just because we send our best team, whereas the other countries don’t necessarily do that for a non-IIHF tournament.


Can you explain what this means?

Yeah what Slimmy said. It's average, nothing fancy, nothing bad. Mellanmjölk in literal terms means mid-milk. They have milk with 3 % fat, 1,5% fat, and 0,5% fat. So it's like you want it to taste milk and not water, but still concerned or think anbout the fat percentage.
Mellanmjölk is 1,5 %.

Lol, I can't describe it more detailed than that hehe.

 

[Hallonbroder]

For what’s its worth, the Swedish hockey federation is less concerned about gold medals in teenager tournaments than the real ones, which is, in a way, fair.

They care about producing players that get NHL contracts (they have a veeery good deal with the NHL together with the SHL and HA, which other countries are very jealous about) since they get lots of money for that every year, for every player signed. That money goes down into the system which feeds the grassroots.

They also care about widening the interest of the sport and gaining more players. Winning does of course help, but as long as people tune in and watch us win the round robin in said kid tourneys, that’s “great”. At the men’s level, the stakes goes up waaay higher.

I don’t fully agree with them, but it’s good for you to get some contexts.

And no, it still doesn’t answer the weird question about why we lose so many big games on this level

 

[Svedu]

For what’s its worth, the Swedish hockey federation is less concerned about gold medals in teenager tournaments than the real ones, which is, in a way, fair.

They care about producing players that get NHL contracts (they have a veeery good deal with the NHL together with the SHL and HA, which other countries are very jealous about) since they get lots of money for that every year, for every player signed. That money goes down into the system which feeds the grassroots.

They also care about widening the interest of the sport and gaining more players. Winning does of course help, but as long as people tune in and watch us win the round robin in said kid tourneys, that’s “great”. At the men’s level, the stakes goes up waaay higher.

I don’t fully agree with them, but it’s good for you to get some contexts.

And no, it still doesn’t answer the weird question about why we lose so many big games on this level

But... That's a somewhat questionable argument. Sweden hasn't been anymore successful amongst men these last years than any of the other big nations to be fair.
Compared to Finland? You have been better at u18 perhaps but neither in u20 nor at senior level.

 

[Hallonbroder]

But... That's a somewhat questionable argument. Sweden hasn't been anymore successful amongst men these last years than any of the other big nations to be fair.
Compared to Finland? You have been better at u18 perhaps but neither in u20 nor at senior level.

It’s not an argument, it’s fact regarding the federations thinking process

 

[eojsmada]

To be fair, these tournaments basically allow for the teams whose goalies get hot, to be in the final game. Happens a great deal, but the final game ends up being a 50/50. The two best goaltenders, throughout the tournament, ended up being in the gold medal game.

 

[Eye of Ra]

I've heard that if you compare finns to swedes in companies some say swedes are better at "Rulla tummarna och ta en fikarast och surra massa irrelevant nonsens", while finns are a bit more straight forward and not as big on small talk like their neighbors. Regarding winning this could actually be a cultural thing? Like getting things done?
You know, those things swedes sometimes call mellanmjök? It's like "Det måste hela tiden vara lite god stämning", ingen vill vara "boven" och slopa skitsnacket och prata allvar och våga vara kontroversiell. This is a very cultural swedish thing for me. Att försöka ducka. "Det löser sig, något eller någon annan lär lösa det". Am i totally wrong here?


Well, he did win with Djurgården back in the days. Never coached the nationals. I get your point though. But he was a bit like Rönnberg as coach. "Hårdnackad" compared to others.
Grönborg also lite hårdare but I'm not a big fan of his. He got clearly outcoached by Jalonen plenty of times. Won once but often had the very best players arriving to play the WC's. Also lost with them a couple of times, bit too many imho. When compared to other nations rosters in those WC's.

Grönborg won 2 wc golds. Only failed once, 2019. You are confusing him with Garpenlöv.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Are there any Swedish coaches that have the emotional swings of @Eye of Ra that can coach the WJC team?

They need a bigger personality. Even if it doesn’t work, they need someone to inject some life into the players. They may need to be pushed in that way, and it could bring out the best in them.

They seem to play great until they hit some adversity in elimination games, and then they just go away quietly.

 

[Deep Blue Metallic]

What's wrong with Sweden?

The unbearable pressure of living up to @Eye of Ra 's boundless optimism.

 

[Czechboy]

I feel like the czechs have lost the last dozen round robin encounters to Sweden. Meanwhile, we are 2 for 2 in playoffs against them.. semis a few years ago with Kulich and bronze yesterday. I could be missing some games but it is wild how good they are in round robins and how they struggle in playoff games.

But, to the point, I think it's a brilliant program with amazing players. Maybe just bad luck?

 

[theslatcher]

I feel like the czechs have lost the last dozen round robin encounters to Sweden. Meanwhile, we are 2 for 2 in playoffs against them.. semis a few years ago with Kulich and bronze yesterday. I could be missing some games but it is wild how good they are in round robins and how they struggle in playoff games.

But, to the point, I think it's a brilliant program with amazing players. Maybe just bad luck?

You might want to check out what happened just last year haha.

Sweden & Czechia have gone against eachother the past 4 tournaments in the playoffs, btw. Which is a little weird, before this streak they last met eachother in the early aughts I want to say.

 

[Czechboy]

You might want to check out what happened just last year haha.

Sweden & Czechia have gone against eachother the past 4 tournaments in the playoffs, btw. Which is a little weird, before this streak they last met eachother in the early aughts I want to say.

So we are 2-2 in playoffs the last four years? And 0 and 2000 in round robin?

I won't lie.. would be nice to not play Sweden for a few years lol

 

[erikhamren]

I would like to hear from the highest man of the federation on why we arent winning the WJC or WC, why we are producing weak age groups year after year. Where are our Peter Forsberg, Lidstrom, Karlsson, Sundin and heck even Dahlin/Pettersson tier talents at? Just come out and say that we are a b-nation now, say something ffs

 

[Hallonbroder]

I would like to hear from the highest man of the federation on why we arent winning the WJC or WC, why we are producing weak age groups year after year. Where are our Peter Forsberg, Lidstrom, Karlsson, Sundin and heck even Dahlin/Pettersson tier talents at? Just come out and say that we are a b-nation now, say something ffs

Like I said earlier, they mainly care about:

- Amount of drafted swedes
- SHL/HA to NHL- deals
- World Championships for men
- Get more kids into hocjey

- Winning a tourney for teens is not a priority.

- Developing “sound, 200f-game players” take priority over skilled ones

- It’s an economical disaster to fall down the divisions, more so than before. Thus, teams wants kids to develop in their system and become good at defense first, so they’re not a liability. Taking risks on skilled, offensive kids ar, generally, too great

 

[Nogatco Rd]

That says it all, didn't even know that. They seem to lose both finals and bronze games. 12 losses against 4 wins means they are likely to lose 2/3 of all medal games. And them winning a final? 16% chance. That is actually insane.

Minor correction: per the stats you quoted they’d actually be expected to lose 3/4 of all medal games (12 losses in 16 GP), and their chances of winning gold in a medal game is a little above 6% (1 gold in 16 GP)

 

[Garl]

I would like to hear from the highest man of the federation on why we arent winning the WJC or WC, why we are producing weak age groups year after year. Where are our Peter Forsberg, Lidstrom, Karlsson, Sundin and heck even Dahlin/Pettersson tier talents at? Just come out and say that we are a b-nation now, say something ffs

1.Sweden has better development system than any non NA nation statistically. What do you mean when you say they produce weak age groups, when Sweden has more NHLers than any european nation?
2.Forsberg and Lidstrom? Where is the new Ovechkin and Fetisov? Where are new Selanne and Kurri? Where are new Jagr and Hasek? New Gretzky and Lemieux? Everyone is a b nation now

 

[namttebih]

Sounds like the Leafs hehehe

Hilarious. Well the joke is on you. Other than the covid crapend season, this iteration of the Leafs have never won a division. Who's laughing now?!?!

 

[Svedu]

Minor correction: per the stats you quoted they’d actually be expected to lose 3/4 of all medal games (12 losses in 16 GP), and their chances of winning gold in a medal game is a little above 6% (1 gold in 16 GP)

Right, my nonchalance. I meant 3/4 and losing 75 % of all medal games. That's still quite insane considering we aren't only speaking about golds.

 

[Svedu]

1.Sweden has better development system than any non NA nation statistically. What do you mean when you say they produce weak age groups, when Sweden has more NHLers than any european nation?
2.Forsberg and Lidstrom? Where is the new Ovechkin and Fetisov? Where are new Selanne and Kurri? Where are new Jagr and Hasek? New Gretzky and Lemieux? Everyone is a b nation now

Well... Rantanen isn't much worse than Selänne and Barkov is probably better than both Kurri and Selänne for me personally or almost at the same level. I mean if Barkov would have got a chance playing the OG's and won gold? I have a feeling most would have considered him up there already. He's the biggest single reason to Panthers success these last years.
Aho is more or less like a Saku Koivu nowadays. If he wins anything with Finland that is. Heiskanen probably the best D from Finland ever and already there touching Timonens status imho. He also needs a cup, Stanley or with Finland.

Necas and Dostal can become something very good. Pastrnak had a pretty decent career so far. I mean Jagr is the best European ever so not that easy to reach same success.
Russians on the other hand... Ovechkin is still playing so I guess we could give Demidov and Michkov some time.
Forsberg... Short career. Sundin will always be the better one of those for me.
I mean Crosby and McDavid haven't been dogs*t through their careers so far.

 

[Garl]

Well... Rantanen isn't much worse than Selänne and Barkov is probably better than both Kurri and Selänne for me personally or almost at the same level. I mean if Barkov would have got a chance playing the OG's and won gold? I have a feeling most would have considered him up there already. He's the biggest single reason to Panthers success these last years.
Aho is more or less like a Saku Koivu nowadays. If he wins anything with Finland that is. Heiskanen probably the best D from Finland ever and already there touching Timonens status imho. He also needs a cup, Stanley or with Finland.

Necas and Dostal can become something very good. Pastrnak had a pretty decent career so far. I mean Jagr is the best European ever so not that easy to reach same success.
Russians on the other hand... Ovechkin is still playing so I guess we could give Demidov and Michkov some time.
Forsberg... Short career. Sundin will always be the better one of those for me.
I mean Crosby and McDavid haven't been dogs*t through their careers so far.

Necas and Dostal are not close to Jagr or Hasek
Crosby and McDavid are not close to Gretzky and Lemieux. The argument was that it is Sweden who all of a sudden stopped producing top players and became a b nation while the rest are doing fine. I disagree, I think that in general the level of players just went lower than it was. And in relative value Sweden is producing players at least at the same level as i the 90s

 

[erikhamren]

Svenska domare på den internationella scenen under JVM i Ottawa

Under Junior-VM för i Ottawa vid årsskiftet hade vi svenska domare på den internationella scenen och en av dem dömde JVM-finalen.

www.swehockey.se

Look, they celebrating referees now. What a gold medal for us that is!