What's wrong with Connor McDavid this season? Lowest PPG and GPG output in ~7-8 years for him

[daver]

He didn't forget how to play offense at all, it’s that he didn’t have to maintain his production to win. Sure, Crosby deserves credit for holding off the loaded first lines, but there were too many occasions during the playoffs as a whole that he was a non-factor, such as the Capital series(2 pts, 6 games). Sheary isn’t good defensively, but Crosby’s right winger Hornqvist was very solid on that end and picked up the slack. Sheary came up big in the finals, and he stayed on Crosby’s line because of how hot the HBK line was - there was simply no one to replace him with.

In 5 on 5 situations in the playoffs, Kessel was superior in the following categories: goals per 60 minutes (0.9 for Kessel vs 0.5 for Crosby), assists per 60 minutes (1.1 vs 0.8), points per 60 minutes (2.1 vs 1.3), high quality scoring opportunities generated per 60 minutes (4.9 vs 3.6), and shots per 60 minutes (12.2 vs 7.6). As for power plays, Kessel and Crosby each had 11 points, but Kessel had five goals compared to Crosby’s three. My point is, the Oilers can’t put an AHLer and a 3rd liner with McDavid since they don’t have a Phil Kessel(RNH?) who can drive an HBK type line. Looking that the stats above, Kessel outperformed the best player in the world(not impact), and I doubt anyone not including Drai can do that for the Oilers if they were to try and “balance out” the depth.

The HBK line was effective as a whole. Kessel was actually behind Bonino and Hagelin in ES points by a clear amount so saying he was the driver of that line is false. And comparing his numbers to Crosby makes no sense given the big difference on their deployment (the HBK line was used exclusively for offense) and their matchups. Full marks to Kessel for producing on the PP but I am sure that was influenced by the presence of Crosby and Malkin.

As for outperforming him, the voters clearly didn't think that was the case. The irony is that Crosby was better in 2008, 2009, and 2017, and probably better in a few other playoffs where they didn't reach the SCF like 2010 and 2018.

As for forwards/other players contributing, Hyman just had an era best 16 playoff goals, Kane had 13 goals in 2022, an era best total thru three rounds, and a d-man, Bouchard, contributed a lot offensively last year and in 2023; something that that Pens didn't have in any of their four SCF runs.

If you want to have a run and gun style, McDavid's your man. If you want other options, Crosby has clearly showed he can adapt to any style of play and impact his team in a way that produces championships.

If you are down two goals in the 3rd, McDavid's your man. If you want to avoid being down two goals in the 3rd, Crosby's your man.

If you want spend a lot of time throwing out hypotheticals, then we can award Crosby with a lot more hardware based on hypothetical better luck with injuries through his peak.

 

[WalterLundy]

Oh no, I misread failed generational player by failed generational offensive producer, which is still completely untrue given how Crosby completely blew the competition out of the water in his prime years in per-game production. You can spin it in all the ways you want, your behaviour is extremely strange as a Pens fan and you seemingly had completely unreasonable expectations for Crosby coming out of the gate. Hockey has changed and it is a much different game than it was in Lemieux and Gretzky’s time. Crosby was never going to put up Gretzky numbers, ever. You’re just lacking logic here.

Crosby’s career was sooooo frustrating to watch. He has only won everything there was to win, did it multiple times and will play on your “favorite team” for his whole career.

I now must go to a hockey board to complain he never scored 130 pts in a season and claim that X player is better than him every chance I get !!!
- no actual true penguins fan ever

He could have dominated competition close to Gretzky/Lemieux level in single seasons in a lower scoring era but he never did. I know you would do anything to prop up Crosby and come to his defense but he isn’t interested in you I promise. Again you misread what I said about frustration. He could have made up for what he lost out on from 2011-2013 in the 2014-2018 range but he didn’t which frustrates me.

You go online and post 3,000+ posts may of which are absolutely fawning over Crosby and making him out to be something he isn’t.

 

[WalterLundy]

That poster pretends to be a Penguins fan. Pretty easy to put a Penguin logo in your profile

It’s not easy to generate actual ticket stubs from my game experiences though. Hopefully you can see the picture I have added but you’ll probably try to explain that one away too. Cam Neely doesn’t want any parts of middle aged men so I’ll change my profile picture if you change your name. It’s embarrassing.

 

[WalterLundy]

Does it irk you that the only championship that mcdavid has won as a senior a 37 year old crosby tied him in team scoring?

It should irk you that McDavid had to bail you guys out in 4 nations OT to keep it so you can say “it’s still our game”. That’s really arguable and you have been caught but that’s whatever…..Tiebreaker goes to the highest goal scorer too.

This is exactly why I’m willing to post what I post and be attacked by “pens”fans (none of you are) who aren’t even from the state of Pennsylvania. I’ll throw that back perpetually. All this thread was designed to do was to act as a bat signal for the Crosby brigade to come in at full force citing absolutely horrid showings in 2015 and 2016 to say he’s better than a guy who has a peak 3 season 82 game average of 150 points.

Nothing more than kicking when someone is down. You even tried to retract the “time to admit McDavid is better than Crosby” comment from June saying “people say things”. That’s so absurd.

 

[PaulD]

I’m not saying Crosby wasn’t integral on our cup runs but he also never led the team in scoring in any of the three. I know he brings other things to the table outside of that but he gets a pass for this. In 2009 he was excellent against Washington but against Detroit in games 5, 6 and 7 he was a liability/scoreless. He watched the team win the cup from the bench after he left the game from the franzen situation.

Crosby’s 3 cup wins he was certainly integral and they don’t win without him but in 2009 he was not the best player on our team. He just wasn’t. If the Oilers had won last year and Draisaitl actually showed up healthy and snagged the smythe I guarantee you McDavid would have been crushed on here for that. 2016 he was outdone statistically by Logan Couture and was goalless. He contributed in other ways but let’s not act like he was absolutely dominating and willing a victory. Definitely an all time weak smythe though. Murray or Kessel I say to this day. 2017 I don’t criticize as much. He was about as good as Malkin statistically and did have a solid finals. Point being though nothing about his SCF performance wins are anything that oozes greatness and inventing ways to win

Last year McDavid didn’t score in game 7 but he was at least active and creating chances. Definitely not a liability. In terms of gap between a league leader and a non teammate, McDavid had the biggest margin in playoff history even eclipsing 1985 Wayne Gretzky. This was over Barkov whom you mentioned already. Last year McDavid was far more deserving to win a cup based on individual performance than Crosby ever was in any cup run he ever appeared in. Crosby didn’t find ways to win. He played mostly adequately for his standards on great teams that had also had timely performances from people that you wouldn’t expect.

This is why I disagree with your point that McDavid needs a couple of cups to be on Crosby’s level. Crosby wasn’t winning them himself and you can argue in each one he wasn’t even the most impactful player on our team. Especially the first two. Team accomplishments are important and I’d never rank McDavid above Crosby without one but I would do so immediately upon him winning one because the rest of the comparison is a blowout. McDavid has more individual awards, has led the league in more categories and has far better peak/prime seasons than Crosby (even if you pace his injured years and adjust). He’s also done all of this in half the time (10 seasons to 20). To me outside of team accomplishments it just isn’t really a close comparison between the two at all.

I personally was more impressed with Lemieux (goes without saying) and Jagr as I watched both careers in their entirety here and while Crosby is great I see a lot of gatekeeping when it comes to him as well as some insecurities from many Crosby fans. This thread is a prime example. Most pens fans are thrilled that McDavid is having a down year because of their love and protection of Crosby.

"Crosby wasn't winning Cups by himself"
No kidding. When did that become any kind of a standard? It's a team sport. You are going a out of your way just to throw throw shade on Crosby. Nobody wins Cup by himself. Not Gretz. Not Mario. Lafluer, Orr , Sakic, Kane, Mackinnon. Certainly not McDavid.
Sid was the best of his time . The Cups are the cherry on top of a stars career. McDavid is the best of his time , he just doesn't have the cherry on top yet. But he has been stellar in the play offs.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

He could have dominated competition close to Gretzky/Lemieux level in single seasons in a lower scoring era but he never did. I know you would do anything to prop up Crosby and come to his defense but he isn’t interested in you I promise. Again you misread what I said about frustration. He could have made up for what he lost out on from 2011-2013 in the 2014-2018 range but he didn’t which frustrates me.

You go online and post 3,000+ posts may of which are absolutely fawning over Crosby and making him out to be something he isn’t.

Every single thing you said in this post is wrong. The more you post, the more it becomes obvious….

 

[authentic]

View attachment 986980

Was surprised by this.

I know his defensive game gets dragged on HF a lot, but always thought it was just HF being HF.

Maybe there is something to it. Im sure the stats crowd will tell us why this is wrong!

Actually individual players have little impact on their goalies save percentage really. Fluctuates pretty drastically from season to season for most players.

 

[Dallas Winston]

It should irk you that McDavid had to bail you guys out in 4 nations OT to keep it so you can say “it’s still our game”. That’s really arguable and you have been caught but that’s whatever…..Tiebreaker goes to the highest goal scorer too.

This is exactly why I’m willing to post what I post and be attacked by “pens”fans (none of you are) who aren’t even from the state of Pennsylvania. I’ll throw that back perpetually. All this thread was designed to do was to act as a bat signal for the Crosby brigade to come in at full force citing absolutely horrid showings in 2015 and 2016 to say he’s better than a guy who has a peak 3 season 82 game average of 150 points.

Nothing more than kicking when someone is down. You even tried to retract the “time to admit McDavid is better than Crosby” comment from June saying “people say things”. That’s so absurd.

Who cares if he hit 150. It was amazing at the time but the fact kuch hit 144 and mack 140 makes it a lot less impressive. 25 year old crosby in that scoring enviornment has no problems

 

[daver]

Crosby was been as dominant vs. his peers on a per game basis as McDavid has been based on the % gap in PPG between them and the Top 10/25/50 scorers.

If one wants to play the "what if" game with McDavid and Cups, then it gets to be played with Crosby and unlucky and untimely injuries. It can be argued that Crosby's per game dominance would be superior considering the amount games he missed at his peak which would be reflected in a superior Trophy case with up 5/6 Rosses, 4 Harts and 4/5 Lindsays vs. 5 Rosses, 3 Harts, and 4 Lindsays vs. McDavid.

 

[Beau Knows]

Tiebreaker goes to the highest goal scorer too.

Picking this out because it seems to be a somewhat common misconception.

The Art Ross trophy has a tiebreaker because they don't want it to be shared, they want to give an award to a single player. But otherwise there's isn't a tiebreaker for points. For instance NHL.com seems to order players tied in points by fewest games played and hockey-reference just shows them as tied.

The goals tiebreaker only exists for the purposes of giving out a particular trophy.

 

[K1900L]

It's probably a variety of reasons, but first and foremost: I don't think he gives a f*** about regular season anymore. Both MacKinnon and Kucherov have their cups, they probably realize that their franchises are currently not expected to be cup favorites the way they were 3-5 years ago, they don't feel the collective weight on their shoulders as they have already carried the cup to their cities and due to this can play relatively freely for their very own reputation and individual legacy.

Back then, people were making fun of McDrai dominating regular season scoring while not being able to win in the playoffs. If you analyze their play, the start of both last and this season, you can see that going deep in the playoffs, being so close to winning, took a toll.

We will see McDavid's true self in the playoffs.

 

[daver]

It's probably a variety of reasons, but first and foremost: I don't think he gives a f*** about regular season anymore. Both MacKinnon and Kucherov have their cups, they probably realize that their franchises are currently not expected to be cup favorites the way they were 3-5 years ago, they don't feel the collective weight on their shoulders as they have already carried the cup to their cities and due to this can play relatively freely for their very own reputation and individual legacy.

Back then, people were making fun of McDrai dominating regular season scoring while not being able to win in the playoffs. If you analyze their play, the start of both last and this season, you can see that going deep in the playoffs, being so close to winning, took a toll.

We will see McDavid's true self in the playoffs.

So do MacKinnon and Kucherov get extra points for seemingly saving themselves for the playoffs in the years they got beat by McDavid in the regular season?

Or are a "freely playing" Kucherov and MacKinnon on the same level as peak/prime McDavid then?

 

[Video Nasty]

So do MacKinnon and Kucherov get extra points for seemingly saving themselves for the playoffs in the years they got beat by McDavid in the regular season?

Or are a "freely playing" Kucherov and MacKinnon on the same level as peak/prime McDavid then?

No, they get extra points and applause for being on loaded teams.

 

[TIGERCOOL]

But this isnt a significant decline, it’s a steady, natural decline, which is normal for a generational player.

The players you mentioned are nowhere near McDavids level, and it took them a while to truly find their gear. By the time they did, McDavid had already double, let alone tripled their individual hardware.

Generational players tend to peak in their early to mid-20s, just look at Gretzky, Lemieux, Crosby, Orr, & Ovechkin

MacKinnon is definitely close to McDavid's level

 

[Video Nasty]

Who cares if he hit 150. It was amazing at the time but the fact kuch hit 144 and mack 140 makes it a lot less impressive. 25 year old crosby in that scoring enviornment has no problems

Odd how you hold up the so-called dominance of Crosby's 2013-2014 season as some gold standard, yet sniff at McDavid's more dominant 2022-2023 campaign (and of course 2020-2021).

Unpopular opinion, but it's pretty clear that McDavid himself was a catalyst for Kucherov and MacKinnon breaching 140, when taking in real world context of the best trying to one up each other (they couldn't beat it or demonstrate true separation) and the three spurring each other on inside the season itself (don't forget that McDavid stormed back from a 20 point deficit in just 28 days and hit 125 points first with a nagging injury before soon bowing out with another injury to rest up for the playoffs).

Essentially what it boils down to is, a healthy Kucherov and MacKinnon can be almost as good as injured McDavid. Says more about McDavid's extreme level than them really.

 

[Greatzsky 99]

Picking this out because it seems to be a somewhat common misconception.

The Art Ross trophy has a tiebreaker because they don't want it to be shared, they want to give an award to a single player. But otherwise there's isn't a tiebreaker for points. For instance NHL.com seems to order players tied in points by fewest games played and hockey-reference just shows them as tied.

The goals tiebreaker only exists for the purposes of giving out a particular trophy.

Thats not true, the NHL stats page is kind of goofy, but if you watch all time list, goals are counted most, if 2 players have say 844 points, and one has played 754, the other 1006 and the guy with 1006 has more goals he is ahead.

 

[gimzo23]

Like I said in other threads and got mostly laughed at, he peaked but he's still in his prime and with his speed decreasing in the coming years he may not have the ability to adapt his playing style like the way Crosby was able to, to still be effective in the same way he used to be. For people saying he doesn't care about the regular season anymore, come on now, seriously? Have we seen any superstar players in the past coasting in the regular season? Besides talent, it's consistency, high ambition, mind and strong willpower to be the very best, that sets superstars apart from normal players. That doesn't just stop in the regular season.

 

[TheStatican]

This is exactly why I’m willing to post what I post and be attacked by “pens”fans (none of you are) who aren’t even from the state of Pennsylvania. I’ll throw that back perpetually.

I'm not about to interject in the ongoing argument but I'm disappointed that you keep using this specific point as a means of dismissing the opinions of others. I mean do you not see the irony here? You are 'not even' from the province of Alberta yet that hasn't stopped you from being a massive fan of players like Gretzky and McDavid. If you're willing to dismiss the views of fans who are not even from the state, then by that same logic, why should your own views be taken seriously when you are not even from the province.

 

[Beau Knows]

Thats not true, the NHL stats page is kind of goofy, but if you watch all time list, goals are counted most, if 2 players have say 844 points, and one has played 754, the other 1006 and the guy with 1006 has more goals he is ahead.

On nhl.com if you switch to all-time stats it does sort that way, not on hockey-refence.com though, there it just shows them as tied.

I don't think there is any official rule about how to break ties for points, other than for the purposes of awarding the Art Ross trophy.