What's The Second Best Non-Big Four Season Offensively (Since '67)?

[DitchMarner]

Since the '67 expansion, what season is the second best offensive season by a non-Big Four (Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Howe) player? We'll limit things to the post 1967 expansion era since it can be difficult to compare scoring from the Original Six Era and prior to modern scoring.

Statistics for seasons that are voting options can be found on NHL.com and in this thread: https://forums.hfboards.com/threads...ffensively-since-1967.2974446/#post-196633118



Results:

#1. Connor McDavid 2023 (54.5%)

Click to read more...

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Esposito 71

76-76-152

76 goals set the record by 18 (31%) and were 25 more than 2nd place (49%)
152 points set the record by 26 (20.6%), were 13 more than 2nd place and 36 more than someone not named Bobby Orr (31%)

That year he was the first NHL player to break the 60 goal and 70 goal barriers as well as the 130 pt, 140 pt and 150 pt barriers.

 

[WalterLundy]

McDavid 2021. Is the actual best non big 4 season but since it was only a 56 game NHL season it is hard for most to select over 2023 McDavid. This season is better than any season in history by a forward other than 82-87 Gretzky, 89 and 93 Lemieux.

 

[McPoyle]

Voted McDavid 21 last time, still voting that season.

 

[McPoyle]

I would also add a few seasons.

Bossy 82, Oates 91, Kurri 84, Kurri 85, Coffey 86, Nicholls 89, Thorntron 06, Jagr 06.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

McDavid 2021. Is the actual best non big 4 season but since it was only a 56 game NHL season it is hard for most to select over 2023 McDavid. This season is better than any season in history by a forward other than 82-87 Gretzky, 89 and 93 Lemieux.

Def not better than 96 lemieux

 

[Video Nasty]

It's close.

I wanted to vote for 71 Espo or 99 Jagr, but 21 McDavid was sublime and his performance in 23 helped remove any doubt that he pulled off what he did in 21 only because of the unusual conditions of the season.

Beat teammate by 21 points and 25%. Beat closest non-teammate by 36 points and 52%. Finished 69% of #10. Finished 100% clear of #20. Complete annihilation.

Had more assists than closest non-teammate had points.

48 points in 28 first half games. 57 points in 28 second half games.

Had a very Gretzky and Lemieux finish of 35 points in his final 12 games.

Had 18 games of 3+ points. Only Gretzky and Lemieux have topped 25 in a season (9 and 4 times respectively). Since this forum adores pace, it's possible he could have hit 26 were it an 82 game season.

Unanimous Hart win.

95% of the forum and likely the hockey world thought 100 points was impossible before the season began. Most thought 90 was a reach. He notched 105. That's worth bonus credit.

Looks like he has the two best non-Big Four seasons. We're well on our way to having a new member to make it the Big Five.

 

[jigglysquishy]

McDavid 21, McDavid 23, and Jagr 99 are the clear best of the bunch. After that it gets interesting, but I do think there's a fairly distinct gap between 3 and 4.

 

[SannywithoutCompy]

The disrespect on Esposito is insane here

 

[Video Nasty]

Esposito 71

76-76-152

76 goals set the record by 18 (31%) and were 25 more than 2nd place (49%)
152 points set the record by 26 (20.6%), were 13 more than 2nd place and 36 more than someone not named Bobby Orr (31%)

That year he was the first NHL player to break the 60 goal and 70 goal barriers as well as the 130 pt, 140 pt and 150 pt barriers.

The disrespect on Esposito is insane here

I think a couple things happened here. Records fell hard and fast during this time frame and then Gretzky came along a decade later, tore them apart, and has held them ever since.

In just a handful of seasons, we went from Mikita and Hull's record of 97 points all the way up to 152. We went from zero 100 point seasons ever prior to 1968-1969 to three in that season, with Esposito holding that high water mark of 126. Then Orr joined him with 120 in 1969-1970.

Then Esposito and Orr both breached 126 in 1970-1971, so that percentage is a bit misleading. When Orr hit 127, Esposito had 130. Esposito would of course go on to hold the 152-139 edge when the dust settled after the final 10 games.

There was not enough time for some of these records to stick and gain mindshare and a certain level of mystique.

 

[norrisnick]

McDavid 21, McDavid 23, and Jagr 99 are the clear best of the bunch. After that it gets interesting, but I do think there's a fairly distinct gap between 3 and 4.

Yzerman scoring 62 more points than his closest teammate absolutely should be in that discussion. If the Big Four are to be taken out of the equation take them out of the equation.

 

[ijuka]

Just forwards? Since Paul Coffey has several seasons that among defensemen have absolutely no contention offensively. 85-86 for example, the only players who had more points overall are Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux, two decent players, while he had 56 points more than the next defenseman.

 

[bobbyking]

it's pretty pathetic putting up crosbys 2014 season.

 

[Bounces R Way]

How quickly we forget that 2020-21 Filip Hronek led his NHL team in scoring without even scoring a goal on a goaltender.

now to me that takes special talent
A record that will never be broken.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

these polls are stupid. half the people voting have never seen majority of these players play. just feels like another thread where everyone can vote McDavid's seasons over everyone else. they tried to just put him over the top 4 and that failed so now the goal is to place him 5th all time. obviously votes are mostly going to McDavid here no matter what

 

[HeadLiceHatty]

these polls are stupid. half the people voting have never seen majority of these players play. just feels like another thread where everyone can vote McDavid's seasons over everyone else. they tried to just put him over the top 4 and that failed so now the goal is to place him 5th all time. obviously votes are mostly going to McDavid here no matter what

This, I'm not educated enough to truly give a vote here, haven't even seen some of these guys play.

 

[Video Nasty]

these polls are stupid. half the people voting have never seen majority of these players play. just feels like another thread where everyone can vote McDavid's seasons over everyone else. they tried to just put him over the top 4 and that failed so now the goal is to place him 5th all time. obviously votes are mostly going to McDavid here no matter what

Here’s a thread about Crosby that’s more your speed: Incredible Leadership Moment

 

[bobholly39]

I voted McDavid 2021. Strongly considered Jagr 1999 (Esposito is up there too).

But - I do think McDavid in 2021 gets overinflated a bit. I also think in a few more years we'll have a better sense on McDavid's peak than we do today.

If you asked me a year ago - I would have said McDavid 2023 is hands down #1. I still voted it #1 last poll, but Kucherov and MacKinnon's stellar seasons in 2024 is giving me pause as to where McDavid 2023 should rank all-time. It's possible that in a few years, the 2023 (and maybe 2021 too) season won't stand out quite as much in an all-time sense, if other players get close to that production/surpass it.

For 2021 specifically - I think McDavid is a bit fortunate. Kucherov is his biggest competitor and he didn't play that year, if he had and has a strong year, his gap over leaders may not have been as strong. Matthews was still ~1 year away from peak, MacKinnon had a good year but not his best, etc. Also - the divisional play make things very unique and harder to gauge equally across the league.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Still Jagr 99

 

[Hockey Outsider]

How quickly we forget that 2020-21 Filip Hronek led his NHL team in scoring without even scoring a goal on a goaltender.

now to me that takes special talent
A record that will never be broken.

That's legitimately one of the most amazing NHL stats I've ever heard.

 

[Video Nasty]

I voted McDavid 2021. Strongly considered Jagr 1999 (Esposito is up there too).

But - I do think McDavid in 2021 gets overinflated a bit. I also think in a few more years we'll have a better sense on McDavid's peak than we do today.

If you asked me a year ago - I would have said McDavid 2023 is hands down #1. I still voted it #1 last poll, but Kucherov and MacKinnon's stellar seasons in 2024 is giving me pause as to where McDavid 2023 should rank all-time. It's possible that in a few years, the 2023 (and maybe 2021 too) season won't stand out quite as much in an all-time sense, if other players get close to that production/surpass it.

For 2021 specifically - I think McDavid is a bit fortunate. Kucherov is his biggest competitor and he didn't play that year, if he had and has a strong year, his gap over leaders may not have been as strong. Matthews was still ~1 year away from peak, MacKinnon had a good year but not his best, etc. Also - the divisional play make things very unique and harder to gauge equally across the league.

Two things.

1. Why does McDavid, the player who proved it, get so little benefit of the doubt, while other players, who never proved it, get it all?

2. This shouldn’t even be a discussion. He went out in 2022-2023, scored at the exact same rate, blew away Kucherov by 40 points, all in a healthy, normal, full season.

As we type these messages, the last we saw of McDavid was him storming all the way back from a 20 point Art Ross deficit with a nagging injury to briefly take the lead when he scored his 125th point, before being shut down with another injury before the playoffs began, where he then went out and scored 42 points while winning the Conn Smythe.

What is the big mystery about 2020-2021 at this point? He’s more than proven that it was no mere one-off fluke due to unusual circumstances.

I do agree with you that we’re going to gain new context with whatever he has in store for his two remaining years inside his 20s. We’ll likely only grow more glowing with our praise.

 

[Mrb1p]

If 10-11 Crosby was there I would've voted for him.

 

[bobholly39]

Two things.

1. Why does McDavid, the player who proved it, get so little benefit of the doubt, while other players, who never proved it, get it all?

2. This shouldn’t even be a discussion. He went out in 2022-2023, scored at the exact same rate, blew away Kucherov by 40 points, all in a healthy, normal, full season.

As we type these messages, the last we saw of McDavid was him storming all the way back from a 20 point Art Ross deficit with a nagging injury to briefly take the lead when he scored his 125th point, before being shut down with another injury before the playoffs began, where he then went out and scored 42 points while winning the Conn Smythe.

What is the big mystery about 2020-2021 at this point? He’s more than proven that it was no mere one-off fluke due to unusual circumstances.

I do agree with you that we’re going to gain new context with whatever he has in store for his two remaining years inside his 20s. We’ll likely only grow more glowing with our praise.

1. Is this supposed to be a dig at Crosby? If not - I have no idea what you're talking about. Who's not giving credit to McDavid? You quoted me - so I assume you mean me, and I'm not sure I follow.

2. 153 points when no one else had topped ~125 points in about 30 years is more impressive than 153 points when 2 other players hit ~140+ 1 year later. So I want to see how the next few years play out - if a bunch of other forwards start regularly hitting 130-140+ points, we'll have to assess McDavid's peak vs that, and it might drop it slightly.

I hate the idea of "adjusting points" to one season only. To me - seasons are pretty similar year to year unless a drastic change in rules/circumstances. So I rather look at a ~3-4 year window or so.

So for me - peak McDavid is ~9 points better than peak Kucherov (2024) vs 40 points (from 2023).

Anyways - I still voted McDavid 2023 #1, and voted McDavid 2021 #2 in this poll. Just wanted to mention that we'll have a better sense of how these seasons measure up all-time with a few more years of perspective.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Kucherovs 144 def take shine off of mcdavids 153. Not really as big a deal anymore

 

[Arthur Morgan]

Here’s a thread about Crosby that’s more your speed: Incredible Leadership Moment

not sure what that has to do with what I said. I honestly dont feel Im wrong. McDavid will win by default due to 90% or likely close to 80% of the members on HF never watching the other players play

you seem to think I hate McDavid and Im a massive Crosby fan too which is pretty far from the truth. well what if I told you what I said about McDavid I pretty much said about Crosby too at one point. I personally just think its too early in his career/