Whats the problem in the defensive end?

[toddkaz]

Whats the problem here?

Goaltending?
Coaching?
Defense?
Defensive play?
Penalty kill?

Who to blame when you see massive breakdowns and power plays doing whatever they want against us?

Watching the games you can see the PK last night was a trainwreck and UPL is partly to blame for 6 goals but I feel like Buffalo would make even the best goalies look average.

Blame goes everywhere but if you had to pick just one where would you point your finger first?

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

Coaching 100%

 

[toddkaz]

Coaching 100%

The Penalty Kill was the worst I have seen. Tampa just did what they wanted. Buffalo didn't get in the passing lanes, shots from everywhere UPL flopping around everywhere because he has no choice. I feel bad for the guy.

Why does Granato refuse to make adjustments? I like Jost but he shouldn't be out there on the penalty kill.

Granato is always a game or two too late to make adjustments. Its frustrating.

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

The Penalty Kill was the worst I have seen. Tampa just did what they wanted. Buffalo didn't get in the passing lanes, shots from everywhere UPL flopping around everywhere because he has no choice. I feel bad for the guy.

Why does Granato refuse to make adjustments? I like Jost but he shouldn't be out there on the penalty kill.

Granato is always a game or two too late to make adjustments. Its frustrating.

Agreed. You won't catch me blaming goaltending either. Can you imagime being coach and not making PK changes not being priority #1 yet?

 

[Ace]

Failing to build a full team especially in the back end

 

[Zman5778]

Why does Granato refuse to make adjustments? I like Jost but he shouldn't be out there on the penalty kill.

Jost absolutely should be out there on the PK. He's got a nose for the defensive end of things. The issue on the PK isn't the players on the PK -- it's the passive style of both the forwards and defense.

The defense on the PK irritates me to no end. They play WAY to close the to the dots and continually allow men unchecked behind them. I know they don't want to screen our goalies......but they can't just allow unchecked guys to tip pucks and cash rebounds with no repercussion. The forwards also tend to collapse too far down away from the pointmen. I think what's being coached is the traditional "box" style of PK, but we're WAY to passive within the structure of that box. We don't drift with the puck to shut down passing lanes -- we stop moving our feet.

We've had our most PK success when we have one forward tenaciously attacking the puck while the others collapse the passing lanes.


As far as defense as a whole -- it's the same as it ever was, and I'm not sure it's coaching. The forwards get caught puck watching a LOT. Like to the point that they're unaware of what's going on around them. Over and over again there are men open in the slot and high slot -- and that's NOT on the defense by and large, it's the forwards' responsibility to cover that. Our better defensive forwards (Girgs, Okposo, Jost, Asplund) have their heads on a swivel and very rarely get caught unaware.

It also seems like when other teams start a cycle, we as a whole panic a little. We collapse into an "X" formation and just allow them to do their thing.....again, passive.

 

[THUNDERBURST]

Probably all together.

 

[dortt]

get Dahlin back on the PK. Once he was taken off, the PK became absolutely putrid

Dahlin, Samuelsson should be the #1 PK, with Power and Boosh as the number 2. Others should only play in case of injury or penalty to the PKers

 

[tsujimoto74]

The PK is mostly a coaching problem.
At ES, I think the Sabres are doing fine apart from ceding more odd-man breaks than you’d like. But that, I think, is kind of an inevitable byproduct of the team being young and playing a style that’s aggressive on offense. So you take the crunchy with the smooth there.

 

[Chainshot]

There are a lot of things at work.

One of the biggest remains that players have to be committed to playing the entire length of the ice. There are plenty of plays that can be traced directly to someone's lack of effort in the defensive zone as a reason for a quality chance against, be it a goal or save.

Look at GA2 last night - Vic can eliminate Perry if he takes a couple of quick steps but EVERYONE is looking at Stamkos, including him as he moves back on Perry but there is no urgency there.

Power missed the puck along the boards so he was below the goal line. Mittelstadt actually sees the play and moves to the guy at the crease who Power also moves to. Jokiharju has left his feet meaning Stamkos can step around him. Asplund is not in a spot to commit to the man (look at his feet). It's just a series of everyone making mistakes.

Let's take a look at GA4... same line: We have the same five skaters and wind up with a similar result. Power goes up the wall instead of reversing

Then after the turnover, they collapse to the net and no one takes a body.

It's a 3 on 5 and they still get a stick on puck without much contest:

There are a host of issues at this point in the play. Jokiharju was stuck defending a short-area 2-on-1 from the corner because Mitts still a half-step behind his man back to the crease so Joker holds his position until the puck career tries to stuff the play on UPL (a save) but then does not inhibit the man and instead is mostly in the goalie's way while trying to free his stick to get to a puck that is now behind him. Asplund is late on the goal scorer. Vic is ALSO late on the goal scorer even though there was urgency in his first step off the wall to collapse back to the net front when Power made the first mistake going up the wall. There is not the commitment to pay a price physically, to engage and contest space that is vital to the sport here. I would say the only guy in this frame who has done that is Mitts as he caught his man as the space near the cage becomes non-existent and his wingers are the equivalent of tits on a bull... again.

 

[Gras]

5v5 Defensively the forwards are mostly the problem

 

[Zman5778]

Asplund is late on the goal scorer. There is not the commitment to pay a price physically, to engage and contest space that is vital to the sport here. I would say the only guy in this frame who has done that is Mitts as he caught his man as the space near the cage becomes non-existent and his wingers are the equivalent of tits on a bull... again.

This. This right here is why I'm wondering if Asplund is truly healthy. In the past, he's had ZERO issues engaging physically. With anyone. He's always always always been a pest.....and this year, there's no pest in his game at all.

 

[Chainshot]

The breakaways are similar - that is skating distance and being willing to stop hard and start hard. It's an effort issue that players, including veteran players, blow the zone and leave their defensemen in bad situations. We've seen that film already - Abysmal's stretch pass system without players who can stretch the ice is riff with breakdowns. When the entire unit moves back to defend and shorten the gap for the defense to turn the play, it gives more options for outlets, supports if there is a missed pass, and also provides additional pressure on the other team when they have possession. The nights they do that? It's so noticeable. The nights they don't do that? We have 8 breakaway or 2-on-1s where the goalie makes 6 of those stops and still gets shit on by people who think it is all goals are on the goalie.

Five on five defending is all five players being committed to it as though it is the most important thing on the ice - which it can be. But they are playing for shots and pressure so often that it leaves them open to this sort of counter because there doesn't seem to be even effort on the defensive side of the puck. They can do it. It's that in moments when they can take a couple extra strides to maybe break up a play, they are coasting. Case in point... the GWG last night -

Tage took that draw. Tuch has Paul coming down the wing and while we can talk about Dahlin's play of yielding more ice, he's still got position on the puck carrier if the guy gets past Tuch. Let's look at where Tage is at this point. He's taken a stride here but he is already well behind the play and about to start coasting toward Stamkos. His turn in the d-zone and effort coming up the ice looked like a tired player (he was about 40 seconds into his shift when the sequence started) but there is goal hanging going on that leave the GWG scorer who is not a scrub a clear, uncontested opportunity to shoot without any pressure at all. It's the level of commitment to getting the puck back that is regularly missing. There are only a handful of guys on the team who seem to have it and not for nothing, one wasn't in the lineup last night.

 

[Zman5778]

It's the level of commitment to getting the puck back that is regularly missing. There are only a handful of guys on the team who seem to have it and not for nothing, one wasn't in the lineup last night.

Mitts and Krebs are, beyond the shadow of a doubt, our two best backcheckers. Both bust their ass every single time getting back, even if they're dog-tired.

 

[Chainshot]

5v5 Defensively the forwards are mostly the problem

ES defending - not getting back to provide pressure or outlets, not enough urgency in how they cover their check when the opponent has the puck, and a propensity for making fundamentally bad decisions in the offensive zone (stickhandling back to the blueline, then tossing shit passes into traffic rather than reversing the puck low and going back to work to win 50-50's).

There are too many players who don't put in the work on their own side of the puck. It's part of why the Kid Line works - all three of those guys bust ass to win the puck defensively and then have the speed to get up the ice in transition quickly. Some of the rest of the forwards do this - Tuch when he's on, Asplund when he's on, Gus, even dare I say the whipping boy Mittelstadt and sometimes Krebs. But the rest of the winger compliment as well as the high-priced offensive talent do not do this.

 

[Chainshot]

Mitts and Krebs are, beyond the shadow of a doubt, our two best backcheckers. Both bust their ass every single time getting back, even if they're dog-tired.

I'd put them a tier below the Kid line. We don't see that line leaving early nor abandoning the d-zone early the way we do with just about everyone else outside of Tuch or Asplund when they are on their games. It's something that even the captain is guilt of - Okposo will sometimes blow the zone early and it leaves his line shorthanded when things go sideways.

 

[Jim Bob]

The PK is mostly a coaching problem.
At ES, I think the Sabres are doing fine apart from ceding more odd-man breaks than you’d like. But that, I think, is kind of an inevitable byproduct of the team being young and playing a style that’s aggressive on offense. So you take the crunchy with the smooth there.

I would say that the PK is like 80% coaching and 20% personnel when it comes to the root cause of the issues so far this season.

At ES, it is a mix of the high event style of play, they are not shutting down high danger plays across the slot line, a seemingly high number of unlucky bounces off of our own skaters, and learning on the job by the youngest roster in the league.

 

[toddkaz]

Jost absolutely should be out there on the PK. He's got a nose for the defensive end of things. The issue on the PK isn't the players on the PK -- it's the passive style of both the forwards and defense.

The defense on the PK irritates me to no end. They play WAY to close the to the dots and continually allow men unchecked behind them. I know they don't want to screen our goalies......but they can't just allow unchecked guys to tip pucks and cash rebounds with no repercussion. The forwards also tend to collapse too far down away from the pointmen. I think what's being coached is the traditional "box" style of PK, but we're WAY to passive within the structure of that box. We don't drift with the puck to shut down passing lanes -- we stop moving our feet.

We've had our most PK success when we have one forward tenaciously attacking the puck while the others collapse the passing lanes.


As far as defense as a whole -- it's the same as it ever was, and I'm not sure it's coaching. The forwards get caught puck watching a LOT. Like to the point that they're unaware of what's going on around them. Over and over again there are men open in the slot and high slot -- and that's NOT on the defense by and large, it's the forwards' responsibility to cover that. Our better defensive forwards (Girgs, Okposo, Jost, Asplund) have their heads on a swivel and very rarely get caught unaware.

It also seems like when other teams start a cycle, we as a whole panic a little. We collapse into an "X" formation and just allow them to do their thing.....again, passive.

Then you weren't watching the game. Did you watch Jost out of position? You should re-watch and watch Jost on the PK. I find its strange you think he is an awesome penalty killer yet can't find a home. If he was an awesome PKer he wouldn't be on his 3rd team in 4 years.

 

[Zman5778]

Then you weren't watching the game. Did you watch Jost out of position? You should re-watch and watch Jost on the PK. I find its strange you think he is an awesome penalty killer yet can't find a home. If he was an awesome PKer he wouldn't be on his 3rd team in 4 years.

Where did I say he was an "awesome" penalty killer? Please find those words in my post for me. Oh? You can't? It's because I never said them.

I said he HAS A PLACE on our PK. That's probably more an indictment of our other forwards than it is praise of Jost's ability.

I honestly think Jost was as out of position as everyone else on the PK -- which is to say that he's exactly where he's being coached to be. The coaching is the major issue on the PK, not the players.

 

[Panthaz89]

I blame personnel just as much as the scheme. Why do our bottom pairing D's see any time on the PK? Bryson and Fitz should never ever be on a PK unit. Also Jost should have absolutely cleared one opportunity when the Lightning sent a cross ice pass to no one at the blue line but he was a statue when at that point even if he was tired he could of easily gotten it out of the zone with any semblance of a hustle but he was incredibly slow to do anything on it. Might as well have had Tage/Cozens/Mitts out there in his place they will at least put a PK unit on its back with a counterattack.

 

[toddkaz]

Where did I say he was an "awesome" penalty killer? Please find those words in my post for me. Oh? You can't? It's because I never said them.

I said he HAS A PLACE on our PK. That's probably more an indictment of our other forwards than it is praise of Jost's ability.

I honestly think Jost was as out of position as everyone else on the PK -- which is to say that he's exactly where he's being coached to be. The coaching is the major issue on the PK, not the players.

You just seemed so excited about it when you posted he absolutely belongs there.

Even though its quite possibly the worst in the league you are absolutely certain he belongs on it.

So you think he absolutely belongs on it but is terrible? average? good? Awesome? Hard to believe you think poorly of him but you are absolutely certain he belongs on it even though its been terrible with him on it.

 

[Tatanka]

If there is no accountability due to being a developmental year or see what we have season, then you have no incentive to do the little things needed to win. Block a shot, contest possession on the PK, get back and fill a lane. None of that happens when there is no consequence for not doing so. The current theme seems to be if you do something competently we will overlook the shortcomings in other areas. Therefore, if the skaters are not being held to task you have to look at goaltending and ask ”are they doing anything competently?” Maybe maybe not. But without incentive to win or disincentive if you lose, nothing much will matter. JMHO.

 

[Zman5778]

So you think he absolutely belongs on it but is terrible? average? good? Awesome? Hard to believe you think poorly of him but you are absolutely certain he belongs on it even though its been terrible with him on it.

Our PK has been terrible with him on it and without him on it. Obviously I don't think poorly of him.

But I do see him for what he is -- an acceptable-to-good 4th liner and PKer on this current team.

 

[Panthaz89]

Our PK has been terrible with him on it and without him on it. Obviously I don't think poorly of him.

But I do see him for what he is -- an acceptable-to-good 4th liner and PKer on this current team.

Our PK was in the middle of the league until the last game basically...also hard to PK a 6 on 3 when zebras are handing out penalties to a team getting outplayed at even strength.

 

[Zman5778]

Our PK was in the middle of the league until the last game basically...also hard to PK a 6 on 3 when zebras are handing out penalties to a team getting outplayed at even strength.

I thought the MSG graphic had our PK at 28th in the league entering last night? Or am I misremembering?